10 Bullets Couldn't Stop Her – A Story No One Should Survive | Katrina Brownlee

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Now I really gotta survive because this guy's coming outta jail. Now I gotta get right, so I gotta get with some bad dudes. So I marry a murderer, a guy that was a convicted murderer. So many people are in domestic violence relationships right now that look like you and I. And they don't talk about it for the same reason. For whatever, maybe finance, maybe they're scared, whatever. But I didn't know that, that I was in a domestic violence relationship. I just thought that that's what it is. If he beats you, you, you take the beatings. But I didn't want to be beat up. I didn't want it. Yeah. I was like, what am I? Where are my kids going? That's the only reason why I didn't kill him. I thought about it, I contemplated, I had plans, like, I'm gonna kill him because he won't let me go. He said, man with a gun, where am I going? As I pulled up, I was like, something ain't right. When he opened the door, he just had this look on his face. It was like the look of death. And he had the gun in my face and he said, this is the day you die, bitch. And I was like, oh, wow. And so he shot me. [00:01:29] Speaker B: This next story is a mind blowing example of neglect, survival and redemption. My next guest was abandoned by her mother at birth, lived with an alcoholic, was introduced to narcotics by a family member as a preteen, was sexually and physically abused early on 13 years, began to experience domestic violence, ultimately leading to an engagement relationship Whereby while pregnant 5 months, her fiance shot her 10 times, yet she lived. It's the most extraordinary survival story. However, it doesn't stop there. She then pulled her bootstraps up and got into the NYPD, served there for 20 years, had a successful career, and has now left and started some organizations to help others in a world that never helped her. It's a super, super fascinating story and truly inspiring. She has a book out now called and Then Came the Blues. I encourage you to pick that up and read it as well, but please help me. Welcome to the podcast, my new friend, Ms. Katrina Brownlee. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your. Your candid articulation in the book about your life, the good and the bad, and there was some really bad. And I appreciate that because it's difficult to put yourself out there like that when you have things that normally somebody wouldn't be proud of. But you as a human certainly came out of that book. So maybe I thought of starting maybe since your life is chronological. And your story certainly is maybe starting with early years, how you were brought up, and maybe touch on the fact that, as you did in the book, the way your perception of race was kind of biased by your family. You want to talk about that? [00:03:26] Speaker A: My great grandmother. [00:03:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. So my great grandmother is biracial, and so she get more to the white side. But I don't know, for me, I was just different. Like, I was one of her favorites, and I didn't look, I wasn't on the lighter side, I should say. But she treated me like I was one of the lighter side children. And so my grandfather, which is her son, he left my grandmother for a white woman. And so that's where all the trauma began for my family. And so I realized later it was transgenerational trauma that I had experienced because him leaving her really devastated her, and she never got over it. And they came up from the south together from an oppressed place to build life. And you get married and you have your family, and then a man just says, listen, I no longer want you or our children, and then leave for a white woman, especially at a time like that where it was against the law to even be in an interracial relationship. So could you imagine the impact that did to my grandmother? [00:04:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:57] Speaker A: And then this was a woman that did not work. She solely depended upon her husband to take care of her, who also was her life, her everything. Right. And for him to do that, she just never was able to see life beyond that. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:24] Speaker A: She was a functioning alcoholic. That's what she turned to. And she had to start out in a really. I think. How can I say it? Probably in a space where you couldn't talk about that. It's a lot of shame on it, I should say. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah. We're talking a few generations. [00:05:48] Speaker A: Right. So that's a lot of shame. It wasn't podcasts, it wasn't social media. You know, they barely even have phones and TV fees. Right. To even be able to get any kind of, like, education or any resource or any therapy, none of that existed at that time. So how do you function when your whole entire world just collapsed with five, four children? Well, they had one, two, three, five children together, and two of the children died in the mix of that. [00:06:21] Speaker B: And do you think that's what fueled her alcoholism as well, or. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Well, her children died before he left. Like, she had. She had my aunt and then my uncle, and then she had two kids, like a year apart, and they both died, like, back to back. Yeah. [00:06:41] Speaker B: So she was the one that ended up essentially raising you. I mean, you. You. You know your story better than I, so I certainly don't want to. To lead you on, but maybe give us a little backstory about your mother and the question mark of a father and the, you know, just kind of give. Give us an idea of. Of how you were. Were brought up so that we can get some context. [00:07:04] Speaker A: Pretty much. No structure, no discipline, no guidance. A family that sold drugs, prostitution, drugs, use alcohol. My uncle owned a home. Well, not. Well, it wasn't his home. It was like my cousin's home. Like, it was a family house. And so my uncle and aunt that were married, they had, I think maybe seven, eight kids, something like that. And then my grandmother had me or my mother and her other daughter that was much younger than my mother that had. That wasn't my grandfather's child, and then it was me. And then my mom left, like, very early on. Like, even in the book, I speak about that whole thing. [00:08:03] Speaker B: Right? [00:08:05] Speaker A: But, like, she just left and went. [00:08:10] Speaker B: Off, like, how early? [00:08:11] Speaker A: But my mother was 16 when she had me, so she was a teenager. [00:08:15] Speaker B: Right. And then left that when. I mean, how old were you? How old was she when she just left? [00:08:20] Speaker A: Well, my mother left me from birth. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Okay. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, from birth, like. [00:08:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:26] Speaker A: She'd never, like, brought me home from the hospital. Like, I speak about that in the book, you know, and I want to kind of, like, save that part, I think, for the book, for people to understand, like, and to see the story. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, there's so much stuff in the book. We couldn't possibly cover it all. But I think it's important for people to understand where you came from. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, my mother abandoned me. Right. She left. I mean, she left me in the hospital, and so she didn't even acknowledge being pregnant with me. You know, it's like she hid that. [00:09:02] Speaker B: Like, how does that. How does that make you feel? And how old were you when you started to realize this? Because obviously you stayed in the family. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Well, my grandmother was very transparent with me. Like, she. Like, I think I was my grandmother's best friend, honest to God, like, the things that she shared with me. As I got older, I was like, she was not supposed to tell me that she. Because I would. We would, like, literally, like how you and I are. I wouldn't have my legs crossed, but I'd probably be sitting in Indian style. And she would just talk to me like I was her friend. Right. And I remember her saying. I remember asking her about, like, why I Don't live with my mother. And she was like, cause your mother didn't want you, that's why. And I was like, oh, okay. So I grew up. My mother don't want me. My mother doesn't like me. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Without an explanation, without any kind of. That was all you got? [00:10:00] Speaker A: That's what I got. And because I would. Of course, I would say why? And then my grandmother. Because that's just what. What it is. And I couldn't dare ask my mother. My mother didn't acknowledge me. I've had moments with her, but never acknowledged me. I wasn't even allowed to call my mother Mommy. I called her by her name. [00:10:21] Speaker B: And she. Because she continued to come around. Because you were being raised by your grandmother, right? [00:10:26] Speaker A: Well, her and my grandmother were very close. She came to see my grandmother every. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Day, which is almost more torturous because, you know, these facts, can't speak about them. She's still coming around. [00:10:35] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Not really acknowledging you. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:38] Speaker B: And how old were you during those. Those formative years there? [00:10:43] Speaker A: Oh, God, I remember as young as probably like four or five. [00:10:47] Speaker B: Okay. So, yeah, it's tough to understand. [00:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And see, back then, we call them journals now, but they were. It was a diary for me. And I started writing in my diary very young. That's why I was able to capture so many different moments in the memoir. Cause I had. I would write. Write it down, like, different events and different pain, different times. I went through some sort of pain, but I normalized it. And I just thought that everybody. Life was just the way that it was. And so I always just felt. Always rejected, a lot of abandonment. And I think that is where it all began for me. But my mother now is getting rejected and abandonment from her mother because her mother can't show up for her because her mother's an alcoholic, because she's suffering from the pain of the loss of her husband that has gone on. Build a life with this white woman, and they adopt a biracial child and take care of this biracial child. And he would walk past my grandmother and her children. So could you just imagine that? That's just awesome. [00:12:08] Speaker B: There's a lot of things that need to be explained to kids. Did it affect the way you perceive race at that time? Because we're obviously of a different generation. And my. My hope is that we get better as we go, obviously. But that's a crazy place to start. Did it ever affect the way that you perceive different races? [00:12:29] Speaker A: No. Because again, like. Like I said, my great grandmother is biracial. Like her mother is white and her father was black. And then, and so her, my great grandmother's mother had two husbands. She had two black husbands. And so. Which is just even very different because even back then it was just like unacceptable. Unacceptable to, to the world. Right. Because they're not supposed to be doing it. So it was. And I learned that later on, like I didn't even know that. Like my cousin and I, we did the ancestry DNA and we. So you can go deep. And they showed my birth certificate and I always thought that it was her dad that was white and the mother was black. And no. And then they showed a picture of like my great great grandmother, like this beautiful white woman. Like she was so beautiful. And a lot of people had asked, has asked me, well, did you do your nose? Did you do your. I like. And because you have features. And they didn't want to say like I had different features, like trying to. [00:13:49] Speaker B: Trying to be tactful. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Right. And I'm like, no, no, I didn't do that. You know, it's because of where I come from. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Right, yeah. [00:13:58] Speaker A: And so my great grandmother and. Which was weird because then she had two like light kid sons, which was. My grandfather was light and her last son was light. And then my uncles were very, very dark, like my complexion. Which is weird. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:18] Speaker B: So it didn't really. But it, it didn't really affect it. [00:14:21] Speaker A: No. So it didn't really affect me a whole lot because it wasn't. Because I didn't know a lot until later. [00:14:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Like, I didn't understand, I didn't know that people like grandchildren were treated differently because my cousin and I, we talk about that. Like we, we've had mo numerous conversations about how she treated us, treated the grandchildren. And then we was able to figure out like when we started to do our research, this is why now it makes sense, and so on and so forth. But then she married a black man, so it was just weird. I don't know. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So I mean, as a kid you're not getting it, but it's still kind of part of your input and your general confusion as a kid. [00:15:03] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:15:04] Speaker B: And then you had. So essentially you have someone whom you love but is an alcoholic essentially taking care of you as far as that goes. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Right, right. Because but they, and then like so that's her mother in law. Right. And so they didn't get along because she built a relationship with the woman that my grandfather wound up marrying. And so they have this relationship in this biracial child that they adopt, and now they are the family. But then when my grandfather winds up dying, having a massive heart attack, and just drops dead. Right. He. So the woman that he marries. And I don't want to keep saying white woman, so I want to say Francine. I would like to say her name. Yeah, that's. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. [00:15:55] Speaker A: So Francine goes, I guess, to get Social Security for her and her son. And they said, you're not legally married to him. And she was like, what do you mean? And he was like, no, he's still married to his first wife. And so they contacted my grandmother, and so she was able to get Social Security. And she realized that my grandfather had really, like, lied to her the whole time. So. And I remember asking my grandmother, like, why do you think he did that? And she said, I believe that was his way of apologizing for what he did to us. And I said, you think so? How would he know he's gonna die, Ma? And she was like, I don't know. She said, because he could have divorced me. He never asked for that. He never spoke to me again. But he also could have gotten a divorce. [00:16:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:57] Speaker A: So she said, he didn't divorce me for a reason. And so my grandmother was able to reap the benefits. Monetary, you know. [00:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah. At least justify it in her mind. Right. [00:17:07] Speaker A: That was her way of justifying, in her mind. But in reality, that's not what it was. [00:17:12] Speaker B: It wasn't a noble act amidst. [00:17:15] Speaker A: No. He. Do you think he thought he was gonna die 40 years old? No. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Now, so amidst all this craziness you have, you said you have, you know, drug dealing. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:27] Speaker B: And your aunt was. Was on drugs. Yeah, she was on drugs. [00:17:30] Speaker A: And you had my uncle put her on drugs. He put all the kids on drugs. [00:17:34] Speaker B: Your uncle put the kids on drugs? [00:17:35] Speaker A: Yeah, because he did. He felt that they were going to go and test drugs. And he said that if he would give them the drugs or and introduce them, then they would be able to know the difference. And then they would go out and get drugs from people and then. Cause people do bad things with drugs. That was his whole philosophy. That is so crazy to me. And how I knew that is because my aunt and I had a conversation, and I was like, how did you get on drug? What was that about? And then when she told me that my uncle did that, I was like, what? And she was like, yeah, like, he introduced me. I think she said she was nine. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Golly. [00:18:19] Speaker A: So I guess that would have happened to me had I not got out the house. [00:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think she was 9. And she said he started her with. She started all of them with like weed. And then it went to like. So it started them with weed, but then they went off to do their own stuff. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:38] Speaker A: But because my mom was a product of all of that too. Like my mother was a drug addict. [00:18:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:43] Speaker A: You know, she was cokehead and weed had. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Man, that's crazy that it was. That it was introduced that way. And again, it was just. It seems from reading through the story, it seems like just such a confusing environment for a kid to grow up in. And then you started experiencing abuse. And as you experienced abuse ranging from the sexual abuse from people inside your family, people outside your family. One of the significant things I noticed, and I'm curious about is not only if you tell any of the stories, obviously they're appreciable and important, but also that so many that were either witness to it or knew about it turned a blind eye to it. And I wonder if that was a cultural thing. If it was. I mean, what is it? I mean. Cause when it. When it comes to a kid, it seems like the common thing is that's going to be something that's not tolerated. Has nothing to do with no snitching or anything like that, because this is something that's happening to a child. But we know it happens and it happened to you. So I'm curious as to why you think it was that so many people ignored the fact that you were being abused. [00:19:56] Speaker A: I don't think anybody knew that though. No, no, I don't. No, I don't think that anybody knew I was being abused by my cousin because she would do it. Everybody was down. Like my house was the party house. Like all the drug dealers and pimps hung out of my house. So it's a house of the prostitutes coming, the drug addicts there, and so much going on. Music. And so the house is three levels. So everybody would be downstairs, like getting high and getting drunk. Like nobody is. Nobody's paying attention. Yeah. And so she was able to do. [00:20:39] Speaker B: That, which is disturbing alone, because you also don't typically associate female on female sexual abuse. [00:20:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And it was very weird for me. I knew it was very wrong. But when I got older, it was more shame on it because it was a woman. You know what I mean? Like, you would hear typical, like maybe the man, like an uncle or father, whatever. Yeah. [00:21:09] Speaker B: It's almost always a guy. [00:21:11] Speaker A: Right. Never a woman. So it put more shame on me. And I didn't want to really talk about that. Because it's. I thought it was. I thought it was worse to me. [00:21:22] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:21:22] Speaker A: I mean, abuse is bad, but I just thought, as a woman, like, how do you do that? It's just awful. [00:21:31] Speaker B: Did you ever find out why she was in such a bad way? Because obviously there's something wrong there too. [00:21:37] Speaker A: I don't know. And I was like. I always. I said it in the book, like, I wonder who did something to her, because that's not normal. Like, you don't just do that. And I don't know why she chose me, but then I found out that she was abusing one of my male cousins. Like, we talked about it, like, years later, and he was like, oh, no, she was sleeping with me too. And I was like, really? And I was like, oh, wow. [00:22:06] Speaker B: Does that make it better or worse for you? [00:22:07] Speaker A: No, it's like, so she's, like, a serial abuser. Like, it wasn't like, just me as a girl, it was him as a boy. Like, that's really sick. [00:22:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So you ended up, obviously taking some of that trauma forward and then. [00:22:23] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. I was done by the time I'm six years old. I'm done. I'm just done. [00:22:28] Speaker B: How did. How did it affect your relationships at an early age? What are. Can you give us some stories about how that it affected the way you perceived what a relationship is? [00:22:39] Speaker A: There was no boundaries in relationship. Remember, I'm a band. I'm dealing with abandonment. I'm dealing with. I want to be accepted by any man that would show me any attention, not getting any real love, no hugs, never any structure or, hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? Or none of that. My grandmother became a librarian later, and so she would just be like. Just read. Like, it was always reading. So that's why I enjoy reading and I enjoy writing. [00:23:17] Speaker B: Well, that's one plus that came out of that. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And my grandmother, she did the best that she could for. With the tools that she had, you know? [00:23:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. So you ended up picking some bad dudes or dudes picking you. Do you think it was them seeing your vulnerability or was it you latching onto someone that you thought might be a good relationship as a teen? I mean. [00:23:44] Speaker A: Right. No, I just latched on because I was looking for love. I was looking for someone to just care about me. Mm. And so I'm broken and totally, like, a broken toy. [00:24:01] Speaker B: One of the more interesting parts of your story, I think, have to do with your children and your. Your first child in particular. You Want to fill us in on that story about how that came about and some of the crazy circumstances surrounding the birth of your first. [00:24:17] Speaker A: I'm 14 years old. Like, I'm supposed to be playing with dolls and coloring books. Right. But I'm in. I'm having sex. But I wasn't taught that I'm not supposed to have sex. I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to have sex. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:32] Speaker A: You know, I'm just doing whatever I mean, he wanted me to do. [00:24:38] Speaker B: This is an older guy, too, right? [00:24:40] Speaker A: He was three years older than me. He's 17. [00:24:42] Speaker B: I mean, but that's a lot older when you're 14. [00:24:44] Speaker A: Of course it is. Of course it is. And nobody said anything. Like, nobody said it was wrong. [00:24:52] Speaker B: The emotional state that you went through and the denial you went through while pregnant is interesting. You want to tell us about, like, what? [00:24:59] Speaker A: I feel like it was the same thing, like, deja vu with my mom. Like, I was in denial. I didn't know anything about my body. I was never taught about my body. You know, I knew I was pregnant, and I just thought maybe if I fall down the stairs, like, I wouldn't be pregnant no more. [00:25:14] Speaker B: And you would fall down the stairs on purpose? Almost. [00:25:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:18] Speaker A: But that was that. Like. [00:25:22] Speaker B: But obviously that it didn't do anything, which is. Which is impressive, too. [00:25:27] Speaker A: It did not. And I did it a lot. [00:25:29] Speaker B: She was a. Should have been for sure a lot. She was not gonna give up. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Oh, my God. It was so many times I would do that. [00:25:35] Speaker B: That's crazy. And so you ended up having her. But there was a lot of circumstances leading up to that where you were told you weren't going to, but you wanted to. But you want to tell us about how that worked out? [00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, 14. And so my mother. My grandmother knew that I was pregnant. That was weird, because then. Because she wound up saying it, like. And I'm like, well, if you're not pregnant, like, why would you not say. But again, she's in her own brokenness. Right. And so I guess she just. I don't know. Like, I don't. I just don't know. I Today. Who I am today. I just wish that I would. My grandmother was alive. For me to ask these questions. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Oh, of course. I mean, that's. [00:26:20] Speaker A: You know, I asked a lot of questions, but now that I am in a different space, I would know how to ask the right questions. [00:26:29] Speaker B: You still had no life context as a young teen with all the trauma leading up to that. Let's understand all of us could do that. [00:26:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And I gave. You know, I just was going on with life. Like, I lived in a life of denial during that time. The whole entire thing was just like denial. And then I went into survival mode at that point. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Meaning what? [00:26:57] Speaker A: Like, I just gotta live. Like, I gotta live. I had no plan. I had to drop out of school. I was gonna take care of my child. [00:27:08] Speaker B: When did you drop out? At 14. [00:27:10] Speaker A: At 14? Yeah. [00:27:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:11] Speaker A: I did two years of high school. No, two years. I meant to say two months of high school. And then I dropped out. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Which is noble in its own right. I mean. [00:27:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:22] Speaker B: So you ended up having the child. There was a lot of crazy circumstances about people forging signatures, about you wanting to give her up and all this stuff. Right. Which is. And this was. Did you ever find out who was the forger that forged the documents? [00:27:40] Speaker A: My mother. [00:27:42] Speaker B: And do you. Do you have any idea why she didn't want you to keep this child when she wasn't taking care of you anyway? [00:27:50] Speaker A: Because it makes her look awful. Your daughter's 14. It was shame, you know, she's. She's not. She ain't taking care of me now. And had another child. Right. And then now your daughter's 14 and having a baby. Like, do I want the world to know that? So if I get rid of this child, nobody's going to know. Right. And we just go right back to this. [00:28:16] Speaker B: So she forged documents that. That signed your name, that you were wanting to give the child up at birth. So at 14, you have a little bit more self awareness and you had to combat the fact that you were duped. How did that make you feel? And how did you end up working around that? [00:28:38] Speaker A: Well, I really didn't have any kind of awareness, Honest to God. I just knew that she did that and it was wrong. Right. So I do know right from wrong at that point. But self awareness and right and wrong is two different things. [00:28:52] Speaker B: You're still considering her as the adult, and so it must be something they're allowed to do at some extent, right? [00:28:58] Speaker A: That's right. She's an adult. She's my mother. So if she does that, then that's my mother. What am I supposed to do? That's how I thought about it. [00:29:06] Speaker B: So how did it end up? What was the. [00:29:09] Speaker A: So I just. It didn't feel right. And I was like, nah, I don't. I don't like this. It doesn't feel good. But she. Her doing that really destroyed the relationship that I had with my daughter. So now we're in the third generation of trauma because you take my child from me from birth. So I never connected. Because when you put your child up for adoption, you're not allowed to see. You can go to the window, but you can't hold the child. And so I never got to hold her when. After having her. You know how you have the child and you embrace them and I never ever had that moment with her. So it was a detachment from Biri. [00:30:02] Speaker B: But you still ended up ultimately dating her. [00:30:06] Speaker A: No, I raised my children. I did, but that it. [00:30:11] Speaker B: Right. I'm just for the people who don't know the whole story. I'm just saying, I just filling in the gaps. [00:30:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. No, I eventually raised her. But the thing about it is that as a mother, and any mother would know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about this. You have a child and they bring the baby to you, and you holding this baby, and that's that connection right there. I never got that connection until a week later. But it was. It's different now. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Interesting. So then, now you have a child. You still. I mean, you're still too young to have a job even right now? [00:30:48] Speaker A: I'm 15. Well, I have had 14. And then a month later I turned 15. So I'm not even able to have a job. So who's going to take care of my child? So I have to drop out of school. [00:31:04] Speaker B: And you're still living with your grandmother. [00:31:05] Speaker A: I'm still living with my grandmother. [00:31:07] Speaker B: And then you had some relationships. What ended up taking you through the point in which you ended up getting married the first time? How'd you end up getting out of the house? And what drew you to a couple of these men you'd started dating? [00:31:23] Speaker A: So my. My aunt, which was my grandmother's daughter, was such. She was on drugs really, really bad. And I just wanted to get out of that. I was just tired of being around drugs. I started doing drugs. I was just tired of that. Like, I didn't want to be around that. And so I was like, if I could just get somebody to meet me and marry me, they can take me out of that. So that's when survival mode went into like, drive. Like, it was in neutral and reverse. And then it went into like, drive. [00:31:59] Speaker B: And it's fascinating to me to. To follow the story and. And understand the. I guess just the. The need for. That's how the relationship piece got put into the. To the puzzle for you was this the way out was to find somebody who had it together and Just latch on and have them sweep you off and do that. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Change my whole life. Right. That was self sufficient. My ultimate goal for so many years. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Was that a cultural thing. Just. And I don't mean cultural, I mean poor. Like coming from a poor culture. Where is that a typical aspiration for people that just want to find the next governmental assistance as opposed to trying to figure out how to build up or find a lot of people that just feel like their ceiling is right here even if it's not. They just feel like they don't have another way out. Is that typical? [00:32:54] Speaker A: That comes from a broken space. That's what that's not. It's not like it's typical. It's brokenness. [00:33:00] Speaker B: Is it? But is it. Is it poor? Is it. Does that have a lot to do with it or is it just. [00:33:05] Speaker A: I don't think it's poor. This has nothing to do with money. This is about what you. Where you come from. It's a mindset. It's. It's a mindset of where you coming from. Right. Because it can be someone white, it could be someone Spanish. Right. If you coming from that. It's. It's a way of life the way you was brought up. You know. [00:33:33] Speaker B: But I mean just trying to get out of poverty. You see a. You know, some people that will, you know, everyone's trying to get out. [00:33:39] Speaker A: Well, even people that's not in poverty. Everybody wants to meet the guy that's going to take them out and drive them with the horse and the picket fence. No, sure, sure. [00:33:49] Speaker B: I guess. I guess so. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Everybody's looking for a boaz. [00:33:53] Speaker B: Yeah. But you eventually down the road as before we jump too far ahead. Did put your foot down at some point. And so I'm going to be self sufficient. I'm going to build my own empire and blah blah, blah. And I think that's more typical of today's modern person. Which is what I'm saying. [00:34:10] Speaker A: But things have ch. But because. No, it's just that you got to remember this is a big world. We only know. You only know things about people that you associate with or what you hear. Right, right. Same thing. So we don't really know if that is a cultural thing. Right. It just may seem so. But I'm not sure if that's really a cultural thing. I just think people come. People are not healthy mentally and emotionally. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:37] Speaker A: And so when you're not healthy, you can't make good decisions for yourself. Everything stops at a certain place. When you're broken. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:46] Speaker A: You can't think far because I was. I became successful and still have brokenness in me. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:53] Speaker A: It was. So I don't think it's cultural. [00:34:56] Speaker B: Well, that's what I was asking. Or maybe I shouldn't have said cultural as much as socioeconomic. Just because you see, you know, you see people in that same situation, but they're totally different. If you have a broken familial upbringing and abuse in addition to socioeconomic despair, and you're trying to get out without having a way to figure out how to do it. So I was just curious about that. So obviously these guys rode you off on a horse and then the horse bucked everybody off at some point. Tell me about how you ended up getting into this relationship with your. In your first marriage. If you want. [00:35:34] Speaker A: You want the first marriage? [00:35:36] Speaker B: Either one. Or. [00:35:37] Speaker A: Or the person that shot me. [00:35:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:35:40] Speaker A: I wasn't married to him. [00:35:42] Speaker B: You weren't married to him? [00:35:43] Speaker A: No, I was married after him. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Okay. [00:35:46] Speaker A: That's why. [00:35:46] Speaker B: Fill us in. I forget. I'm sorry. Okay. [00:35:49] Speaker A: I just. Right, okay. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Where I read it. [00:35:51] Speaker A: I was engaged to him. Okay, Right, Engaged. Right. Yeah. He had a great job. He's a correction officer. He had a gun, he had a badge. So that is like. That's exciting. I'm 18 years old, like, and my man got a gun and a badge and a fly car. Who doesn't want that? And I'm living in the projects with a child, no job, no education, no direction. And so I. I hit the lotto. Like, I'm out, I'm getting out, moving on up like the Jefferson. So, yeah, it's like that's. That was me, like. And that was the worst thing I could have ever done. [00:36:33] Speaker B: And he was interested in you, but you were only interested in him because it was maybe a way out. That's the perception I got. Right. [00:36:41] Speaker A: It was the only reason why I just wanted a way out. [00:36:45] Speaker B: So how did he court you? How did he end up? [00:36:49] Speaker A: I met him through his family, one of his family members that was dating my aunt, and so that's how I met him. But I didn't like him, like, physically, I didn't like him. It was nothing about him. I liked nothing. I liked his car, I liked his career, I liked the fact he had a gun. I like the fact that he spend his money on me. I like those things. I was never taught to date a man on character. I wasn't taught to love someone. Like, I don't. I never experienced love until later on in life. Right, right. Your mother and Your father are the first people that's supposed to show you love and that did not receive that. So I don't know about love. I don't know that I'm supposed to date someone because you love them. I've been in this family that everything was materialistic and drugs and that type of life. So he wasn't on drugs and did drugs, but he could probably change my circumstance. [00:38:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:08] Speaker A: And so that is what I laser focused on is I need to get out of this situation and he's gonna be the one to do it. [00:38:19] Speaker B: That's good. So how did tell me a little bit about that story and leading up to. [00:38:24] Speaker A: So no. So when I met him, like I said it was just that. And he wanted a relationship and he wanted more emotionally for me. And I'm like, no, I can't. Like, I'm not even available for like that is so foreign to me. Like. Like love, like what. What are you talking about? God, like, no. And then my grandmother was like, no, you need to be with him. Like he can get you where. Like my grandmother understood, like I told you, that was my friend. Like, she understood, like I would need to get out of this. She knew she couldn't help me at this point. Like she was so far gone at that time. So yeah, I think you need to go that what you're doing. Go ahead, do it and get out. And he wanted a real relationship. He wanted to control me. He was an abuser. He come from abuse. His father abused his mother. So that's how he was able to. How can I say? That's how he navigated. And so he felt like, I'm gonna. I love her, I wanna be with her and I'm gonna make her be with me. Cause I told. I never lied to him though. I always was like, I don't like you. I don't wanna be with you, but I'll be with you. If I can get this. It was always based on, we can be together if I get this. [00:40:02] Speaker B: It's a negotiation. [00:40:03] Speaker A: It was a negotiation. A contract that just wasn't signed in the ink, but verbally. Right. And so I told him how I felt. And his thing was, no, you'll grow to love me. Don't even worry about that. We're good. I was like, okay, cool. [00:40:23] Speaker B: And so you ended up. He did move you out of the house. [00:40:26] Speaker A: He moved me out the house and built the home for us. He. We built a house from. From the ground up. [00:40:31] Speaker B: At what point did. Obviously the abuse doesn't start right off the jump. [00:40:36] Speaker A: No, it does. You know, it does. [00:40:38] Speaker B: It does. It does. [00:40:39] Speaker A: It starts very, very early on. [00:40:42] Speaker B: So how. Tell me about that. How did you navigate that? How did you justify that, all those things? [00:40:47] Speaker A: Well, I. My grandmother was just like. It was just normal. Like, she didn't say it was wrong. So I thought that when a man love you, that's what they do. They gotta beat you. [00:40:59] Speaker B: Because this is one of those examples where somebody's kind of turning a blind eye. Not only turning a blind eye, but encouraging you to stay. [00:41:06] Speaker A: To stay. [00:41:07] Speaker B: You know, telling me about that circumstance where she became aware that you were being abused. [00:41:12] Speaker A: She was there in the house the first time that had happened, and so she came in. And even when he left, because I'm like, from the project, I'm like, nobody, don't hit me and get away with it. So it's not like he hit me and that was it. No, we was fighting and I was like, no, well, he's not going to be doing this. And I'm saying to my grandmother, she's like, no, but you got to like, you have to deal with that. That's how. That's what you do. And I'm just like. But that doesn't seem right. And so because she said it, I was like, okay, then I gotta get beat. [00:41:53] Speaker B: That's. Yeah, I mean, it's difficult for people to digest, but we know it happens. Yeah, it's, you know, the domestic violence. [00:42:01] Speaker A: Pattern, but it's people. So many people are in domestic violence relationships right now that look like you and I, and they don't talk about it for the same reason. For whatever. Maybe finance, maybe they're scared, whatever. But I didn't know that. That I was in a domestic violence relationship. I just thought that that's what it is. If he beats you, you. You take the beatings. But I didn't want to be beat up. I didn't want it. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Right. And then to add insult to injury with a blessing on top, you end up pregnant again. Right. [00:42:35] Speaker A: With. [00:42:35] Speaker B: With him. So did. Were you thinking about leaving before that time, or did you just consider this something you were going to ride all the way? [00:42:43] Speaker A: No, after I got pregnant and then he hit me, I was like, no, I don't want to do this. No, no, I don't want to be with him. But then it got really worse. He began stalking me. It was bad. [00:42:53] Speaker B: So you were wanting to leave because perhaps at that time you were finally thinking outside of yourself and thinking about someone else, which was the child. What do you think motivated you to. [00:43:02] Speaker A: I wasn't even thinking about the child. I was just like, it's not worth it. I'll find another person. Like somebody else to get me out these projects. I throw that back. [00:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:13] Speaker A: But he was like, no, you agreed to this contract, and so you're going to fulfill your duties. And I'm like, but I don't want to do this. And I told him. I was like, I didn't use the word contract, but I was just like, no, I don't want to do this contract. Like, I don't want to do it. Nah, it's all right. We good? [00:43:36] Speaker B: And he was like, no, not letting you renegotiate. [00:43:41] Speaker A: You gave me your word, and this is how it's going to be. And I'm like, no, it's not going to be like this. Like, you can't make me be with you. And he was like, no, yes, I can. And this is how it's going to be. [00:43:52] Speaker B: And you're in the house. So how do you. Do you get out somehow? I mean, how do you eventually win that argument, per se? Because the impression that you give now is, he's insisting you stay. He's an abuser. He's gonna beat you until you stay. How do you end up actually getting out? [00:44:10] Speaker A: Well, I got pregnant again. And so when I got pregnant again, I went away in the house or whatever, and the beatings was getting, like, worse. And I was just like, nah, I can't. Like another kid. And going, this is three kids, no education, no job. Like, it was just getting worse. Like, my life was just getting worse. It wasn't making sense. It wasn't adding up. But I had nowhere to go. And I was just like, I'm gonna kill him. But then the only thing that stopped me from killing him was the fact that I was like, where my kids were gonna go. [00:44:52] Speaker B: That's interesting. Yeah, I was. I was super fascinated by that thought. I mean, everyone would. Hell, I was reading it and I had that thought. [00:45:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I was like, what am I? Where are my kids going? That's the only reason why I didn't kill them. Because I didn't have no place for my children to go. And I did not want my kids to go with my grandmother and have to experience what I experienced. [00:45:12] Speaker B: Sure. [00:45:13] Speaker A: So that is what kept me going and thought about not killing him. Because I thought about it, I contemplated. I had plans and things written down. I'm going to kill him because he won't let me go. [00:45:34] Speaker B: Right. So how did you navigate around that? How did you. What was your plan B? How did you. [00:45:40] Speaker A: There was no plan. But, I mean, if I leave, he would find me every time and make me go back like he's making you. Let's go. It was just. It was just awful. [00:45:54] Speaker B: So. Making you go back and forgive me for talking like an idiot. [00:45:57] Speaker A: No. [00:45:58] Speaker B: There's a lot of people that really don't have an understanding of how this really does work, because they would think, hey, if you ended up saying, I'm out of here. I can't do this, and you leave and you're staying somewhere else, but he makes you come back. [00:46:12] Speaker A: Gun. Where am I going? I'm calling the cops. And I've got a black eye. And the cops see my eye black. And they. He show his badge and they say, work it out. Or sometimes don't even say anything to me. What am I supposed to do? There's nothing that you can do under those circumstances. We didn't have safe housing. You didn't have a lot of resources for domestic violence, and you don't have a lot now. So we're talking. When this happened to me, I had nothing. Right? So if I leave, I'm going to be homeless. I got two kids and a baby on the way. Where am I going? What am I going to do? No money, no education, no hope, no nothing. [00:47:03] Speaker B: And the times that you did try calling the police, notably, this helps the. This helps normal people understand. And a lot of normal people, people that haven't experienced this kind of domestic abuse wouldn't understand either why you wouldn't just call the police, but in your case, you did on a number of occasions, and every single time, he managed to flash this badge, and. Which is kind of amazing to me. And do you look in retrospect and think, this dude's a jailer? Like, who do you even. Do they even carry that kind of clout? Because, I mean, some dude flash a badge and say, hey, man, I work at a jail. Seems like a lot of cops would just laugh that off, like, whatever, dude. [00:47:46] Speaker A: Not in New York. It's different. [00:47:48] Speaker B: Obviously. [00:47:49] Speaker A: No, law enforcement like NYPD respect law enforcement. They respect the badge at every level. Yeah, they respect it. [00:47:58] Speaker B: Well, and they proved it because they. [00:48:00] Speaker A: It's a little different now, but back then, they respect it. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah, and I'm not questioning if they did or not. I just. [00:48:07] Speaker A: Obviously. No. And it's okay that you did. I mean, I. I mean, that's why my book is badges on both sides, because I noticed the side, the civilian side, and then I know the Police side. Like, I know how they think. I didn't know how to think then. It didn't make sense to me. Like, you see him got a black eye. Like, where's your. Where's even the empathy and the compassion for just a human being? [00:48:36] Speaker B: Just duty, Even if you do it for the sake of, hey, I really would like to cut a break, but this woman is obviously injured. [00:48:44] Speaker A: You have a duty to do something. [00:48:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:47] Speaker A: Something ridiculous. Or take them in the car and, like, chastise him. I'm just like, wow. So now I got a dislike for police officers. Like, I think you are garbage. [00:49:05] Speaker B: I would understand that completely. [00:49:08] Speaker A: And growing up, I didn't have problems with cops. I would see cops in my neighborhood, and they would be friendly. So now it's like, no, this is wrong. [00:49:19] Speaker B: And that's one of the things keeping you from being able to leave and stay gone. Although you did eventually get out of the house. [00:49:27] Speaker A: Because I was tired and I didn't care at this point, I was prepared to die. I mentally prepared myself to die. I was like, either go to jail or you die. Pick one. And so I was like, I don't think I can do jail. I don't want to wear that uniform that I see them wear. And I don't want to eat cheese sandwiches for the rest of my life. I don't want to die either, but. And I think maybe if I had. If someone. If somebody would have been able to bring my children to the prison, I probably would have killed them just to get away. And not killing him, because I'm an evil person. I just wanted to get away from him, and he wasn't letting me get away. Right. And I couldn't get any help. So I just was like, I'm gonna prepare myself mentally to die. [00:50:31] Speaker B: And in doing so, you left and stayed gone. [00:50:35] Speaker A: And so I was like, he is going to. And not that I thought that he would shoot me. Never thought he would shoot me. When I say die, just meaning, like, he would abuse me so bad that I would eventually die like that. Because those beatings was getting to that point where I was getting knocked out. [00:50:53] Speaker B: You were just at wit's end. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it was bad. [00:50:56] Speaker B: But decided in lieu of killing him, you were going to bolt. And you eventually did bolt. [00:51:03] Speaker A: So I leave. I left and stayed in the hotel, But I don't have no job, so the money ran out. I saved up money. I secretly had gotten on welfare, and so I would save up my money. But how long is the money gonna last? It doesn't last. [00:51:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:23] Speaker A: And then I had a friend. He helped me out. But how long is that really gonna last? Like, reality? Like, no. [00:51:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:31] Speaker A: So I call him and sort of have a conversation with him for the first time. Like, we had a decent conversation for like, a whole week. [00:51:38] Speaker B: And now how long were you gone before you had this conversation? [00:51:40] Speaker A: I think two or three weeks. I was. Okay, I think three weeks, three weeks. Because I left, like, the first week in, like, December. So maybe like three weeks to a month, something like that. [00:51:55] Speaker B: Okay, and what inspired you to call him? Just that you were running out of resources. Okay. [00:52:02] Speaker A: I needed money. The kids needed clothes. And I had a baby that she. She was still in pampas. She was two years old. I was like, can I get some pampas? I was like, I don't want you. I don't love you. Like, this is bad. Like, I'm having another baby. Like, is this what, like, you want for your child? Like, come on. Like, come on. This kind of makes sense. It gotta be somebody out there that love you, somebody that can be with you. It's not me. And so we talked and we talked every day, and it was good conversation. But I didn't realize he was setting me up. And I was just so vulnerable at that time. And broke. Broken, I'd say. And he told me, I can come over and get clothes. And I did. But I felt in my heart something was wrong. And that's why you always got to go with your gut. When something don't feel right, that means it's not right. So that's how I live my life to this day. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Intuition is important. [00:53:12] Speaker A: It is. And as I pulled up, I was like, something ain't right. But I played in my head. I'm going to the house, get the stuff, and I'm going to get back out. And when I tried to turn the key, he had already changed the locks. And so I was like, okay, that's fine. And when he opened the door, he just had this look on his face. It was like the look of death looking back at it today. And I go in, and my oldest daughter was across the street at a playdate. I'm pregnant with my son and my youngest daughter. I put her in the room to go to sleep because she was sleeping. And then when I go the other way to the bathroom to get the clothes out, and I pull the drawer, there's no clothes in there. So I. So I turned around and asked him, like, where's my clothes? And he had the gun in my face, and he said, this Is the day you die, bitch. And I was like, oh, wow. So I was like, okay, this is what I said was gonna happen. Like, I'm prepared at this point. Never threw a gun, even though he had pulled the gun out on me towards the end, but never did I think that he would use the gun, like. And so he shot me in my stomach, and then he shot me again. It was like target. Like he was target practice. Because the way that he shot me, the bullets was right under each other. One, two, three. Just like that. And then he shot me in my arm. And I remember collapsing on the couch, and it was like, you shot me and I'm pregnant. Like, that is. You were just an animal. And then ultimately he shot me ten times. And. Yeah, that's. [00:55:07] Speaker B: It's an incredible story. What was going through your mind? Is that matter of fact, before you maybe felt the pain, when you were like, I can't believe you're shooting me. And you started to have this conversation. Was he conversational at that point, or was he refusing to communicate? [00:55:25] Speaker A: No, he just was like, I gave you everything. He just kept calling me the B word. And I gave you everything you wanted, and it still wasn't enough. And I'm like, I never lied, though, to you. This was not a story of lying. Like, you never caught me cheating. Like, it wasn't that. Like, I told you the truth, and you just wanted what you wanted. [00:55:53] Speaker B: 10 times while you were pregnant. And somehow I'm talking to you because. [00:55:59] Speaker A: Of God, So shout out to him. [00:56:03] Speaker B: And you had some kind of serendipitous intervention, also with one of his friends. [00:56:09] Speaker A: I guess it was his cousin. [00:56:10] Speaker B: His cousin showed up that. [00:56:12] Speaker A: Never been to my house before. Never, Never. He came there, and it was. I don't know, because I was in and out of consciousness. And he said that. I told him, just let me die, but find somebody to please take care of my children. [00:56:36] Speaker B: You don't remember saying that? [00:56:39] Speaker A: I don't. I don't remember anything. Thing. [00:56:44] Speaker B: So you woke up in the hospital. [00:56:46] Speaker A: I was in a coma. [00:56:48] Speaker B: How long? [00:56:50] Speaker A: I think it was two weeks. [00:56:52] Speaker B: And then you woke up. And even the doctors were amazed. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Yeah, and it was like, when I woke up, I just remember, like, blinking, like. Like a lot. Because you hear all these sounds. Do you know that sound? And I stink. And I'm just like. I remember getting shot, but now, like. So now I went from getting shot, and now I'm in this hospital. And the nurse was in the room, and she was like, let me go get the doctor. Let Me, go get the doctor. I remember her saying that. And I had tubes in my mouth and I was in icu and the doctor came and he was such a good looking man. It just brought some life to me. And I remember just looking up and he tells me, you got shot 10 times. Your baby didn't make it. He lived for two hours. And you will never walk again, you will never talk again, you'll never live a normal life again. And I'm just like, I woke up to that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it was just like, huh? And I was just like, wow. [00:58:22] Speaker B: Did you recall why you were there when you woke up? [00:58:26] Speaker A: When you say recall, what do you mean? [00:58:27] Speaker B: Do you. I mean, sometimes you wake up and you're just so disoriented. Did you remember being shot at that point or was it. [00:58:36] Speaker A: Oh, no, I knew that I had gotten. The last memory was me being shot. [00:58:40] Speaker B: Okay. [00:58:41] Speaker A: And I remember him putting me in a tub. That's it. I just remember that. And. I just woke up to just that scene, like. And I'm like, how did I get to the hospital? Like, what happened? Like, so I was thinking of all those things, like, how did I get to the hospital? Did he take me to the hospital? But then I'm like, who's gonna take care of me? Like, it was so much so. It was, it was just. And I remember tears just coming down, like. And I was like, all for or to get out of this situation. Like, I just ruined my whole life. [00:59:50] Speaker B: At some point you kind of became Wonder Woman, Superwoman, whatever. [00:59:57] Speaker A: And kind of Wonder Woman is like my favorite character. [01:00:01] Speaker B: Is she okay? [01:00:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I love Wonder Woman. [01:00:03] Speaker B: Wonder Woman personified in that you kind of made a decision that you were going to defy what the doctor's prognosis was. [01:00:14] Speaker A: No, that's not what happened. I believed what the doctors told me. I got. The doctors say, I believe science. I don't believe science now. I don't believe nothing about science. And shout out to the scientists, right? But I don't believe it because of my situation. Because obviously nothing that he said came to pass, right? So I believed it to the fact that even when I got out the hospital and the therapist came to his mom house where I was staying because I was homeless, I told the physical therapist who was. I was his first patient. It was an Asian physical therapist and I was his very first patient. So, you know, when you get a job for the first time, even if you packing bags, you want to pack the best bag, right? [01:01:11] Speaker B: You're into It. [01:01:12] Speaker A: So he is like, come on, you gonna be able to do it? And I'm like, listen, I have a schedule here. I watch the Price is right at 11. I remember that. And I can't remember what it was I watched at 12. But I remember telling him the schedule, like, so just say it was bugs Bunny at 10 and Woody Woodpecker, whatever. But I remember saying that. And then 11 o', clock, I watched the Price is Right. And I don't like people talking to me during that time. Like, I'm telling this guy that. And I'm sitting in this wheelchair. [01:01:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:54] Speaker A: And for the first couple of visits, he was just like, okay. But, you know, like, I don't know. I believe you would walk again. I was like, the doctor said, no, I'm not walking. So I don't know why you here. I don't know why you wasting my time. Because I'm angry and I'm bitter. Like, I don't know why you wasting time. I don't know why you here. And I don't want you to be here. And I want you to leave. How about that? And I don't want you talking because price advice is coming up. Like, I remember saying this stuff to him, and he went for it for a while, but he was just eager. He's like, come on, like. And so this one time, my Price is Right wasn't on. It was something on TV that I didn't want to see. So I was like, all right, let me just try it. So I remember him, like, picking me up. I had no feelings in my leg. And laying me on the bed because they had given me a hospital bed. I had a colostomy bag. And he laid me down and he said, you don't walk again. I was like, no, I'm not. And he. I remember him touching my foot. He said, you feel that? And I was like, no. And so I told you. And I remember him, like, moving, like, my leg, legs and stuff on. And then it didn't know the session was over. And then he came back again the next day and he was like, oh, do you want to do this again? And I was like, yeah, I think I do. And then we did it, and there's still nothing. And then he did it again. He would come and be like, hey, you know. But he came. He. The way he did it was like. Like a kid. Like, if you do this, you get a lollipop. But it wasn't like a lollipop. He was like, if you do this, you might get like, Result, like he was giving me some kind of hope. [01:04:01] Speaker B: Right? [01:04:03] Speaker A: And so. So now I'm looking forward to doing it, even though I wasn't getting any results. And then it was just one day. It was just different. And then I remember going to church, and they carried me in a chair to the baptism pool. And it reminded me, have you ever read the Bible before? Do you remember the man that couldn't walk? And he was at the. With Jesus, and they put him in the pool. It reminded me of that whole entire scene because they put me in a chair to take me to get baptized. And they put the white gown on me. And I remember I was all the way. The church hour was very long, and I was all the way at the back. And I remember them bringing me up and carrying me like the ushers, the men ushers, carrying me up to the pool. And I'm crying, and they put me in the water, and they take me out same way in the chair. And I remember feeling something at that moment, and I see. Said, wait a minute. I'm feeling something different. And from that point on, this was a Sunday, and it was Easter Sunday or Palm Sunday, I cannot remember right now. I think I write it in the book. I can't remember. And that next day, he came on Monday, because he would come Monday through Friday. And I said, waiting for him now. Now I'm waiting, right? I'm waiting, waiting. I had a home attendant. I was like, you know, dress me up. Put me on something nice. [01:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:06] Speaker A: You know, because he's coming. And I was like, so I'm sitting up totally different now. I'm, like, dressed. And he was. I said, I'm ready today. And I said, don't worry about the Price is Right. I'm ready today. And from that point on, that's where it went. And I believed in it at that point. And it just went from there. [01:06:33] Speaker B: You know, you can walk and talk and everything else. [01:06:36] Speaker A: One and everything else. [01:06:38] Speaker B: Amazing. Yeah. [01:06:39] Speaker A: To God be the glory. [01:06:42] Speaker B: And while living with the mother. I don't want to stay on this topic too long, because you have a redemption side, which is. This is where it starts. That's why I was so interested, and I appreciate you telling that part of the story that's. That's significant. You were staying with the mother of your shooter. Try to call him something decent. I don't know how to do that, really, but. And she tried to entice you to write some kind of statement saying that you shot yourself. [01:07:12] Speaker A: You didn't entice me to do anything. She told his family or family member that if I wanted to stay in her house, that I would have to write a letter stating that I shot myself 10 times. And I was like, I'm not doing that. So I guess I'll be in the street in a wheelchair, because I ain't doing it. And she didn't live there anymore. She was living down south. She had a home in New York, and we stayed there. That's where we had stayed originally, before we had gotten our house. And then I went back there, but I said I wouldn't do it. And so she said I would have to leave immediately. And so she threw me out. And his same family member, she took me in. She had my children because I couldn't care for them. She was raising my kids. And I was like, I want my kids back. Well, I always wanted them back. But I. I had no fight. Like, I'm in a wheelchair. Like, I can't fight. Right. And so they. By that time, his cousin that. Who befriended me and kind of like nourished me back together, she came and got me. And that severed their relationship, of course. And she just recently died, actually, earlier this year. But I didn't know that she actually wrote the letter and signed it and gave it to the judge, the mother. Yeah. I didn't know until the 48 hours. [01:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:01] Speaker A: And I actually have it now because they sent it to me. And so in the letter, she says, I recant my story that he never shot me. But not. It didn't say that I shot myself. It was this. I recant my story saying that he shot me, and I just wasn't in a good state of mind. That's still the same thing. So who shot me? [01:09:23] Speaker B: So the second time, somebody had come in and forged your signature to your disadvantage. [01:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Even like the police did, because the police said that they had a whole conversation with me and I was in a coma and signed my name about what I talked to them about. And I'm like, I never. I never even saw you before. [01:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so weird that that could even happen. [01:09:47] Speaker A: But that. Yeah, but it's just like, you still protecting this guy. Like, it was just so awful. [01:09:53] Speaker B: So do you think that's why ultimately he ended up getting such a light sentence? Or do you think it was a light sentence as I do. [01:10:00] Speaker A: I. I think. I don't. I don't even look at that as a sentence. I think. Look, it's just. Well, that's like community service. Like. Yeah, I don't. I think he got a light. I think he got that community service because he was law enforcement. [01:10:20] Speaker B: And they thought that you were not going to cooperate. They thought they had the only witness was going to be a non cooperating witness. [01:10:26] Speaker A: Right. And I walked into the courtroom and it changed, but the judge was like, oh, it's a crime of passion. No, this is not a crime of passion. How is this a crime of passion? This is ridiculous. What are you talking about? Excuse me. How would you feel if someone did that to your child? And you know what's crazy is that that same judge called the ada, who is now one of my good friends, and was like, oh, is that the Katrina that I have case? Yeah, dude, it's me, it's me. Hello, it's me. Like really, like, you should really feel awful. [01:11:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it's ridiculous. He got, he ended up serving 10 years, right? [01:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:16] Speaker B: And I, I'm dying to know. I mean, obviously you, you have your own success story. So I'm not trying to insinuate that you obsess over him because he's not worth thinking about. However, there's no way that. I mean, when he got that sentence, first of all, 5 to 15 or whatever it was, he did 10 and gets out that that isn't already disturbing in and of itself, especially the circumstance. [01:11:44] Speaker A: But he said to me, when he was, when he shot me, I'm only getting 5 to 15. And the judge gave him exactly like. And I'm just. Was like, could you at least gave him like 6, 17, whatever. Like you give him what he said. [01:11:59] Speaker B: I find it peculiar anyway that they have. The disparity between attempted murder and murder is so crazy. Just because you suck at murder, then you get substantially less time even though your intention was to completely murder somebody. [01:12:13] Speaker A: And you cause all that. Unbelievable. Like, I think that was. So when that judge did that to me, it gutted me at a level that every time I think about it, to this day, I'm just like you, you're an awful human being. [01:12:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:36] Speaker A: To have done that to me, it's. [01:12:39] Speaker B: An embarrassment to the system. [01:12:40] Speaker A: It is. And he was just awful. [01:12:44] Speaker B: So what are your. What are your thoughts? What are your sentiment? What are your. Or what was it when he actually got out, moved and had whatever success, remarried, has a job, whatever, and is living whatever, quote unquote, normal life, whatever that may be. [01:13:00] Speaker A: He never became successful. How could you be successful? Successful and you shoot the chosen one? [01:13:07] Speaker B: Well, if you think he feels guilty, I mean, he seems like the type that is so narcissistic that He. [01:13:13] Speaker A: No, I don't think he feels guilty. I think that he is actually mad at the fact that I didn't die. Probably it would have been better for him if I would have died because then he could have told my story. [01:13:25] Speaker B: That's true. [01:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah. He's. I. I believe that he's very angry. [01:13:30] Speaker B: How do you feel? How does it make you feel, just knowing that he's out in general? How does it. [01:13:34] Speaker A: I don't really care about. I don't think about him. I don't think about him at all. I forgave him a long time ago. Like, I don't care about him. I don't care about his life. He doesn't matter, you know? He has to live with what he's done, right? He has to face every day of what he has done to me, to his child, to his children. He got to live with that. [01:14:04] Speaker B: Well, that's great. I mean, that's. I mean, that's gotta be the worst thing for him, is to be ignored. [01:14:10] Speaker A: And the fact that, to me, the best revenge is being successful. He gotta be mad. Could you imagine, like, the person that you shoot gets to live the life that you wanted or was living? Think about that. I got the badge. I got the houses. Like, I got the car. Like, all of that. I got it now think about that. [01:14:35] Speaker B: Beautiful. [01:14:35] Speaker A: You have nothing, right? [01:14:38] Speaker B: So that's where this redemption story really takes the big step. Because you had lived your life looking for someone to bring you out of a situation, right? You go through all this trauma and then go through the ultimate trauma and then lead us up to the point in which you start making a decision about taking yourself up by the bootstraps and turning yourself into something. [01:15:05] Speaker A: But it took a long time for me to actually do that because. You don't have that type of trauma. And it gets better. It actually got much worse. Because then the type of men that I began dating after that, it's. You know what I mean? [01:15:30] Speaker B: Like, you still hadn't learned that lesson yet. [01:15:32] Speaker A: It wasn't. It wasn't even about learning a lesson. Like, it was like, now I'm in. So I went from drive, right in survival mode to like, I'm in the HOV lane. Because now I really got to survive because this guy's coming out of jail, who is going to protect me? He coming. Like, he's coming. He got. He's coming back, right? He's coming back. So I got to. Now I got to get. Right. So I got to get with some bad dudes. I got to Give it the bad ones. [01:16:06] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:16:06] Speaker A: So I marry a murderer, a guy that was a convicted murderer, because now I ain't got to worry he's going to take care of my problems. Now. [01:16:17] Speaker B: How do you. How do you manage to navigate all the way from that decision, all the way to making a decision about independence and taking on a career that seems so far left field that no one would guess. [01:16:32] Speaker A: Now the healing journey starts, because now I'm getting healed. So now when you get healed, your mindset changes. It's about transforming the mind. And so I transformed my mind as I begin to heal and realizing that this. I don't need a man, a bad guy to protect me. I don't need a drug dealer to give me things like, I begin to start to love me and care about me. And then once you begin to love you and start caring about you, then now you can start making better choices and decisions for your life. And that's how I was able to get on the other side. And then I took off from there. [01:17:14] Speaker B: Was there anything that triggered love for yourself? I mean, any moment where you just had, like an epiphany and decided paying attention to yourself and caring about yourself. [01:17:24] Speaker A: It was high of pain. It was a lot of pain. A lot of pain, a lot of tears, a lot of suffering in my life. [01:17:30] Speaker B: Okay. [01:17:31] Speaker A: And I just was tired of being sick and tired of being tired. And I had to put that mirror up like, hey, okay, what are you gonna do? You can't. Like, you tried all of that and none of. What did it get you? Did it work out? No, it didn't work out for me. [01:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah. None of those other fools are helping you. [01:17:53] Speaker A: Well, I'm not gonna call them fools. Right. Because we, as foolish as we think we are. Right. Because we all make bad mistakes and we make bad decisions. Because people probably would say I'm a fool. I'm sure people have said that I'm a fool. [01:18:09] Speaker B: We've done foolish things. [01:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Foolish things. For me, it was. The hardest thing I had to do, was to clean myself up. Do you know how hard that had to be for me from where I come from? [01:18:27] Speaker B: No. That's why I'm terribly curious, because it just seems like an impossibility. [01:18:33] Speaker A: No, it was the hardest. It's like one of the hardest things that I had to ever do in my life, from where I come from. Left in a hospital by my mother, and for people to have just abused me, that's the hardest, hardest thing. But once I went into gear. It was over after that. I just. Just like. I was like, that plane, you know, when you get on the plane and you go. You start to go as you getting ready to line up to take off. And that's just what it was for me. I got on that Runway, and it started inching and inching and inching and inching. And then it started to take off, and then I was out of here after that. And now I'm unstoppable. [01:19:31] Speaker B: So what made you. What made you actually decide? This is, like, one of the more crazy parts, too. How the hell do you pick law enforcement to go into with all the terrible experiences that you had with law enforcement? [01:19:48] Speaker A: I know that. Well, isn't my life, like, really, like. [01:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you're. You're nuts, right? You're not a nut, but you're nuts. [01:19:56] Speaker A: But I'm nuts, right? So that's what. So doesn't that make sense? [01:19:59] Speaker B: I guess so. Yes, it would make sense, but try to make that make sense to. [01:20:02] Speaker A: I'm gonna go work for an organization that just, like, is the reason why that happened to me. [01:20:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:10] Speaker A: Can I tell you this, though, before I answer that question? [01:20:14] Speaker B: Please. [01:20:16] Speaker A: So this officer, I think he was an inspector or something, he was high rank, calls me anonymously after my dory got out and said I might be the police officer that came to respond. [01:20:35] Speaker B: Oh, my. [01:20:36] Speaker A: And I'm very sorry. And he said. Because I did that before, and I think you might be the person. And I'm very sorry. I am. I'm retired and I live in Florida now. And may God bless you and hug up. [01:20:53] Speaker B: How'd that make you feel? [01:20:56] Speaker A: I could not. First, my first thing was like, are you freaking serious? Like. Like what? And then I was like, why you hung up, Coward. Like, least you could have let me curse you out. You know what I'm saying? Like, he didn't give me that. Like, I just. I was so mad because he didn't give me the opportunity. [01:21:26] Speaker B: He's helping himself. He's getting rid of that guilt. [01:21:30] Speaker A: That's exactly. [01:21:31] Speaker B: He's not calling to help you out. [01:21:33] Speaker A: No, he was not calling to help me out. I was so mad about that. I was so mad. I was so. [01:21:38] Speaker B: That's a crazy story. How interesting. But it. At least now that you're, you know, in such a better place, you can. [01:21:47] Speaker A: Laugh about that, right? No, of course. That's a lot. Yeah. It wasn't funny then. I'm gonna tell you the truth. I was like. I was so mad because. And then I'm like, can I get the. Cause it was private. And I was like, I was even thinking, like, let me go to the telephone company, get this number. I'm flying down to his house. Like all this stuff. But I never did it. Right. Yeah, yeah, that was crazy. But to answer the question. [01:22:13] Speaker B: What was the question about how you took off, finally started to say, I'm going to pay attention to myself and love myself. And started getting to a place where you said to yourself that you the one person that can bring you out of this situation that you're in. You were still in precarious. Oh, like I was saying, situation and relationships. But what made you decide and how did you get into law enforcement? Career. Career of all things. [01:22:44] Speaker A: So I. That's what I'm telling you. This is all God ordained. I'm telling divine power. So before I met him, I had applied for a job as a traffic agent, which was under the Department of Transportation at the time. You didn't need a high school diploma. You need no education to write tickets. Right. [01:23:06] Speaker B: And. [01:23:09] Speaker A: I. The address that I used was my grandmother's address. And I had done had several addresses at that time. The letter came to me at my address that I was living at at the time and said, are you still interested in becoming a traffic agent? And I'm like. And I was like, traffic agent? I don't remember. And then I was like, yeah, I did take. I did apply for this job. And I'm like, yeah, I don't have a job. Heck yeah, I want to do it. And I made the decision. And at that time, I'm living very in a wealthy life. I'm with a rich drug dealer guy. So it's like. [01:23:53] Speaker B: Which is. Which makes it even more ironic. So you're living with a drug dealer guy that you got along at least didn't abuse you? [01:23:59] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. [01:24:00] Speaker B: But was an interesting disposition to be applying for some kind of a position. [01:24:05] Speaker A: Right, right. So I'm just like, yeah, I'll take it, or whatever. So I wrote, I wrote back and then they wrote me back again and called me. And then. So that's how the process start to get into traffic. And then they didn't respect traffic agents. They came under the NYPD at that time when they sent me the letter, but they wasn't respecting traffic agents. And I'm like, I don't want people like treating me like this. They was getting spit on and beat up. I was like, no, I need a gun. I gotta protect myself. Like, no, I don't want to do this. And so my. Who became a friend, and she just recently passed away as well. She was a manager of traffic and I was her driver. And so she came and to our roll call and said, anybody interested? And being a cop. And I'm. My hand went up first. I was like, yeah, I'm interested in being a cop. And I was like, a cop. Like, I really want to, you know. So it was just like. But I'm like, okay, I'm just. [01:25:01] Speaker B: There's nothing you'd ever considered long term, but when they brought it up, you're like, yes. [01:25:06] Speaker A: Right. When I grew up, at one point, I wanted to be a judge. I wanted to wear that long robe with the white collar and have my, like, robe, like. Like a train. Like that's what I wanted to do. And just like, hit the. That's too grown up. [01:25:20] Speaker B: With a little Gucci collar sticking out, maybe. [01:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. Or Chanel brooch. [01:25:25] Speaker B: I know you better than. [01:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah, so. And so I took the exam and I passed it. Like, I. I think I got like a 99. Like, I couldn't believe that I had passed it because I dropped out of high school, and I still didn't have a high school diploma at that time. But, no, I was in college. I was in college at that point. Now I wound up going to get my education and stuff like that. But they called me, and from then on, it was like, I put on my Wonder Woman, like, belt, you know, that belt she had, and I put that on and I just started grabbing it. I just, you know, and I took off after that. It was like I said, once I took off, I was unstoppable. Like, you couldn't stop me. I had a whole. I began to have a whole vision and plan for my life at that. [01:26:13] Speaker B: Point, because it's an opportunity you just never considered. It was just kind of. Again, something that kind of fell in your lap. [01:26:20] Speaker A: It fell. [01:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah, in terms of just something to consider. [01:26:22] Speaker A: Right. And then I said, I want to be a good cop. Because when I made that decision, I was like, no, I want to be a good cop. I want to be able to treat people with empathy and respect and to help other people. But I knew I would never be a domestic violence officer because I knew once I got in there that it was a bunch of bull crap and they didn't have resources or anything set up and designed to help victims like myself. And I was not going to victimize another person and let them have that experience that I had. Not that I wouldn't show up to them and someone did that and walk away. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that someone's being abused and I can't help them. [01:27:07] Speaker B: Right. [01:27:08] Speaker A: And so I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm going to be an undercover. I'm going to be in community affair. Like, so all my whole mission ever was just to be in undercover because I was watching too much New York undercover during the time that I was shot and recovering. And I wanted to do community affairs because I wanted to really help the community. I just wanted to give back. And I felt that it was having. [01:27:34] Speaker B: That in your mind helped set that trajectory in your career, which is interesting too, because it's not as easy as just saying, I'm gonna put in for this and put in for this. I mean, you have to really kind of know what you're doing. Make the right connections. [01:27:46] Speaker A: Right. [01:27:46] Speaker B: And kind of fall into place. [01:27:47] Speaker A: That's right. And fall in place. And I also wanted to. I always wanted to be a mentor, which I am now. And I wanted to start an organization because I just never wanted young girls to have to endure and experience what I did. And if I had someone to talk to or someone that just cared about me, my life could have went different. And so I wanted to be able to do that. And so that's why I started my organization, Young Ladies of Our Future, which is a 16 week program where I did do workshops with them. And then after they graduate, I give them a full formal commencement. And then I give each girl a rose, because a rose is still a rose. [01:28:28] Speaker B: Love it. [01:28:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:30] Speaker B: Would you. How do you recruit those girls? And would you have called if you had known about something like that that was such. That sounds like a commitment also. [01:28:39] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know. But I'm just saying. I don't know. But I'm saying it was never. [01:28:44] Speaker B: Wasn't even an option. [01:28:44] Speaker A: It wasn't an option. I don't know. I recruited them in this very poverty stricken neighborhood in Brooklyn. That's forgotten. And what really put the fire in me, I kept saying I wanted to do it. I would write these things down and how I wanted to look. But it was a woman that had, I think it was. There was 14 children at this time, a young woman. And I don't think this woman was even 30 years old. And she had like, I believe, 14 children. [01:29:15] Speaker B: Wowee. [01:29:16] Speaker A: And two gang guys were shooting at each other and they killed her instantly. And I said. And I went there And I saw her body. Because at that time I'm on amazed town, and I. No, I'm sorry. I was not on mayor's detail. I'm so sorry about that. I was working for the chief of department, and I was in community affairs, and so they sent me over there to respond to that. And when I saw her body there, I was like, nah, this is crazy. This is awful. I need to come to this community and do something here. And so I have a charity called Katrina Cook Brownlee Charity. And so I feed the homeless there. And I also do something called Operation Supermarket for the Holidays, where I pay for people groceries. I'm actually doing it here today. When I leave here, you go into. I'm not sure what neighborhood they have me going to, but I want to just go. I've just believed, like, when you go to someone's city, like, you have to be able to give back. And so I'm going to be doing that. And so I, um. And I do it because when I was homeless and during the holiday time, we didn't have food. Like, we, like, had, like, stale sandwiches. Like, it was just awful. [01:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:34] Speaker A: And so I would know what it is to be hungry. And so that's why I don't love food to this day. I don't love food. I eat food because I have to, but I don't love it. [01:30:41] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:30:43] Speaker A: And so I started this organization, and to me, that's like, one of the greatest things that I can say that I've done because I've helped a lot of young girls, and now I'm doing it, like, everywhere. Like, I'm not just confined to a neighborhood. So now I do speaking engagements all over the world now. And so that's what I do. [01:31:15] Speaker B: Helping people. [01:31:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:17] Speaker B: Started seeing outside your own situation. I mean, even police work, inherently, when. [01:31:21] Speaker A: You do it right, you have to do it right. It's. It's important to do it right. And I enjoyed being a police officer. [01:31:28] Speaker B: So you said you wanted to be a good cop. [01:31:30] Speaker A: I did. [01:31:31] Speaker B: Did you accomplish that? [01:31:33] Speaker A: I was a good cop. I never had any, like, CCRBs. I never got in any trouble. No skin? No. I just wanted. I did my job with integrity. Yeah, yeah. [01:31:43] Speaker B: It's as simple as that. And the empathy piece. [01:31:45] Speaker A: And the empathy. Yeah, I did, and I enjoyed it. [01:31:48] Speaker B: I thought it was interesting, too, at one point when you were talking about where you wanted to be assigned when you started doing. I don't know if it's the vice or narc unit or something, where you were talking About. It's always been an interesting conversation to me about policing because it's always kind of an issue on the table about how certain people don't relate to other cultures and then they go out and police them. And half of the problem is just not understanding that's what the. The, you know, the culture that they're going into. [01:32:15] Speaker A: That is the. [01:32:16] Speaker B: But there's also a catch 22 to that same thing, because if you take people and then you even at one point in the book, I know you said, well, I would love to go into, you know, a community similar to mine, but not my community. Because your own community could also have its own set of problems where everybody not. Not only in undercover, but even in a standard police uniform. So do you. Do you have any opinion on that as to whether or not you think it's more important to diversify people and have them learn other cultures or to segregate people to police different. [01:32:52] Speaker A: I think it's all about training. I think it's about training. Right. But the first place it has to start from is home. Because I can't train you to have empathy. I can't train you to be a decent human being when your mother and father is supposed to teach you how to be a decent human being. So when you go to a job, you don't have to be taught that. And that was my thing. And I speak about that in the book because I think it's important for policing to come with empathy, come with integrity, come with respect, come with a heart, a good heart, not a. And take off the blinders and stop profiling people. So that comes from home. And I think that it should be mandatory that police officers go through therapy training because they still are human beings and they gotta go home to a wife or a husband, children, you don't know what their situation is. And that's why they killing itself at an alarming number, because they don't. People don't humanize them. [01:34:04] Speaker B: So I have like a mandated annual visit or something. [01:34:08] Speaker A: Yes. And police officer get. Police officers get abused in the police department. The higher ups will abuse them. So it's like a ricochet effect. That's like abuse. I get abused, so I'm abuse you. Like it's just goes up the chain. Yeah. [01:34:25] Speaker B: And you see that in a lot of departments. And I know you worked in a massive. The biggest department there is. So, you know, there's bound to be more drama there because it's so sectionalized. [01:34:35] Speaker A: Right. [01:34:36] Speaker B: But I also found in my experience too, you have a Lot of people that seem like good people seem like empathetic people, seem like kind people, but they were the kids that got their ass kicked for their lunch money. [01:34:48] Speaker A: Yep. [01:34:48] Speaker B: And then as soon as you promote them, you're like, wow, when I worked with you on the street, you were cool. And now all of a sudden. [01:34:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:54] Speaker B: You become a complete a hole just because you're promoted. [01:34:57] Speaker A: Yep. [01:34:58] Speaker B: And that seems like. I don't know. I don't know how much time you have to invest in these people, but as long as you just make it about a test and I don't. NYPD is not even a test driven. It's. It's. Is it nominated for. How do you. How do you promote there? [01:35:12] Speaker A: Oh, well, the detective route. It's. You have to be like you said, nominated, but it's another word. I can't think of it right now. [01:35:23] Speaker B: But you have to have a certain tenure also. You have to time in, right? [01:35:27] Speaker A: No, not really. [01:35:27] Speaker B: No. [01:35:28] Speaker A: Really. I became a detective very early on my career. [01:35:30] Speaker B: Okay. [01:35:31] Speaker A: No, and then you have the test way like you can take. [01:35:37] Speaker B: There are different ways to promote then. [01:35:39] Speaker A: Yeah. You can take the test and be like a sergeant, lieutenant, captain, and then you can go be a detective, third grade, second grade, first grade. And first grade is like the highest that you can be as a detective in the. In New York City Police Department. And so. And that's where I retired as a first grade detective. Right. And wasn't even a lot of black women at that time. I think it was five of us in the whole department at that time. Yeah. [01:36:03] Speaker B: Has it diversified now? I mean, you would say I. Yeah. [01:36:06] Speaker A: After I left then they started a lot because I exposed a lot of stuff, but it was, you know, it started happening, but it was some other guys and I will. I don't want to take the credit for it, but they had. Did a lawsuit about black people weren't getting promoted to first grade. And so I happened to fall into it when that, when they won the lawsuit. So I was like, kind of like one of the first. What. So. Yeah, yeah. And so then it just started happening afterwards. [01:36:34] Speaker B: So it seems like New York, of all places. I mean, you have the United States. Diversity is what, you know, 15% black or whatever it is. But New York City is really diverse as a city. So that's. That seems. [01:36:47] Speaker A: And I think the NYPD is like 36,000 police officers. Like, come on. [01:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah, right. It should reflect the population. [01:36:55] Speaker A: It could. It should balance itself out. It's, you know, it. You could see one thing about nypd and they're probably going to get mad at me, but it's okay. [01:37:05] Speaker B: We're not bashing. We're just. Yeah, we're talking truth here. [01:37:08] Speaker A: They promote based on, not merit. It's who you know. And it's so unfortunate because it's some really good police officers that really do some amazing work and they're never acknowledged. And I think that is awful. So I did the work, right? I mean, it speaks for itself. I got over 500 narcotic bots. Yeah, I did my community service. I started my organization. I worked for Mayor Bill de Blasio and I was his advanced one. I traveled all over the world with it. So I did my work and I never went in wanting to be a first grade detective. I never even imagined. Because black women did not get those positions. You didn't get promoted in that way. I just wanted to be a good cop. I just wanted to help other people. That's honestly, that's all I wanted. [01:38:08] Speaker B: That's probably what made you succeed. Because once people recognize that, then there's no denying that. [01:38:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I never, and I've never asked for anyone to promote me. I've never, I just never did that. [01:38:21] Speaker B: How would you recommend people be promoted? Seeing that way where they include both ways, both have their issues. One, obviously the, you know, the good old boy system is never works for anybody because it's so and so knows so and so. And then they get promoted. Even if they suck at their job, they get promoted because they're a dude. And then you have the other ones that are test takers that take the test and they're good at studying the books and they go up and then they're still the dude that got their lunch money stolen. And you're like, well, dude, you have no business being here. [01:38:50] Speaker A: Those cops have to end. The cops and the people in the community pay for that. Yes, they pay for that. [01:38:56] Speaker B: I know. So what do you do you have an idea of like, how to solve. What's the, what's the, how do you marry those things and come up with a better promotional system? Do you know? [01:39:06] Speaker A: I think that you have to vet people before you bring them on the job. Like, you gotta do like how the FBI vet you to be a part of their organization. I think the NYPD should do the same thing. And I'm not saying that I don't know if the FBI, I don't know how bad it is or how good it is. I'm just saying, like, it's an intense investigation and you Wee out that to me. You can wee out certain things, go to people, neighborhood, see what people say about them, you know, see what they did in their life. [01:39:41] Speaker B: That'd be a great place to invest some extra time and money too. I think that's a great idea. [01:39:45] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean that if I was able to have an opinion or decision about that's how I would just. [01:39:52] Speaker B: I mean, they, I find even in our. I was in a larger Texas department and they did. I mean, they were calling ex girlfriends and, you know, hooking you up to a polygraph and running your credit and doing all kinds of stuff. And now I have a company and we have, you know, private armed security guys that are constantly being recruited by police agencies. And they don't even call me. I'm their last employer. Isn't that like the first thing you do if you're going to work at Walmart, you call the last employer? [01:40:22] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:40:23] Speaker B: And so I'm thinking this is going backwards. [01:40:25] Speaker A: Right. [01:40:25] Speaker B: They used to, you know, show your. [01:40:27] Speaker A: Guts and you'd have to have integrity, though. [01:40:30] Speaker B: Crazy. [01:40:32] Speaker A: Like, it's just, I don't know, it's just so sad and awful. But, you know, I, I enjoyed my career. I had a great career. And I came across some good people and more good than bad in the police department, honestly. And I met some cops that really, really wanted to be police officers. And then I had some that didn't want to like, let me tell you something, there's good and bad in every job, right? And you just have to weed out the bad. It's like buying a bag of apple. It's going to be one or two rotten apples in that bag. It may be in the middle where you didn't see it when you checked in the bag, but that's just what, that's how it is. And it's all the way how you deal with it and how you respond. [01:41:21] Speaker B: Did you find. Culturally, I think the era that you work through, you got to see a lot of the blue line and covering for folks to. Now, I think that's all been exposed to the extent that good cops. Now the main thing that we got to see is good cops calling out. [01:41:40] Speaker A: The bad cops, not they not going to do that. [01:41:43] Speaker B: That's what has to happen, though. [01:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah, but they're not doing that because you got to remember they still got to work with these people. You get a 1085 meaning like something has happened to you. You need them cops to come and respond and help you. They not doing that. [01:41:56] Speaker B: So how do we fix that? Is that same. Back to the same thing that should have been backgrounded better. [01:42:00] Speaker A: Yeah. It has to start before people get on the job because you can't fix it. You know, that's like being a little pregnant. [01:42:10] Speaker B: Right, right. You know, it's gotta be a reporting system though for people that are going bad. Because as soon as you start crossing that line a little bit, a great cop should be embarrassed that someone's making them look bad because what it does is it taints the entire profession now. Nobody wants to be a cop now. [01:42:28] Speaker A: I mean, I know that's so sad though, because we need policing. I know we need it, but we need good policing. We need policing with integrity. We need it. And I want, I want people to get out of that mentality. [01:42:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:41] Speaker A: We need just like we need good doctors, we need good police. Right. We need good nurses. [01:42:47] Speaker B: But you got to call out the bums or else. No, it just looks like you are agreeing to stay in the lumped everybody. Like you said. You said it perfectly. I mean, there's always going to be a players in every little sect. You go to the narco section, you become part of it. You want to be the 12, one of the 12 A teamers on that team of 80 people or whatever it is, because everything has that. But we're talking about F people. People that are failing at the integrity part of the job. They need to be called out. I think it should be part of the culture to say we don't want to be associated with you and we've got to somehow break that. Break that culture. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:43:29] Speaker B: So. And that's interesting too because you in the Northeast you hear a lot. Boston Philly, you hear a lot of that kind of stuff where there's still graft and some guys that'll take stuff off a bust and tag a few things and not tag a few things. And you know, that stuff like that just needs to go away. All it does is perpetuate it. Now we got people that are the best. People don't want to be cops and they're the ones that you need the most. [01:43:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's. Those are the people that you want. And I hope that my hope and dream is for the temperature to change amongst law enforcement all over because it's a profession that is mandatory and needed. And if we can bridge that gap with community and police, I think that we would just have a better world. But we have to stop being. Not nice. We have to learn to be kinder and have compassion for other people. [01:44:54] Speaker B: That seems like that's where it should start. It's an honorable way to want to go into a profession like that. [01:44:59] Speaker A: Yeah. That's just like when a doctor. You want the doctor to have compassion. Right. When he's getting ready to split you open. Right. [01:45:10] Speaker B: So at the same time, you want them to be business, like. [01:45:13] Speaker A: And you want to be business. [01:45:14] Speaker B: Don't be emotional. [01:45:15] Speaker A: Right. [01:45:16] Speaker B: Appreciate where you're at. [01:45:17] Speaker A: Right, Right. No. Right. But I'm just saying, like, you know. [01:45:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:20] Speaker A: Even like the firefighter, you want him to go in and get the cat. [01:45:23] Speaker B: Right. Right. [01:45:25] Speaker A: So well put. So I just. That's what it is. [01:45:29] Speaker B: So I have a couple of questions that I. I've skipped over, but. And I know we're running slow, short on time, so I want to make sure that I ask beyond. She's a survivor. How do you want people to perceive you now based on all that your story entails? [01:45:47] Speaker A: I think that's a great question. I'm a woman of faith, first and foremost, and I am. I want to leave and leave with this. Like, I just want to spread love all over this world. That's just my goal, my dream for people to just be kind and to love and to help other people. We just. In a world where everybody is just for themselves, it's so selfish. And I just want people to know that I have healed. I've been made whole. Nothing missing, nothing damaged, nothing broken. And I'm a decent human being, and I forgive. And it's power and forgiveness because you don't forgive for them, it's about you. And just to be. To be looked at as a decent human being. [01:47:12] Speaker B: Well, that's great. I'm sure you're making that easy for most people to do, especially after talking through all this. Do you have advice for anyone who is watching or listening to this that might be in a situation that they feel like they can't get out domestically? [01:47:29] Speaker A: You know, that's another good question. I tell all people on every platform that I go on, or even if I tell anybody that I That's come to me about a situation. Create an exit plan first. Do not just get up and leave. Because one thing about an abuser, that's what they hate the most. Right. They always want to have control and have the power. And if they feel like they're using it, they will do whatever it takes for them to stop you. Create an exit plan. Get a. Build a community or embrace yourself in a community of people that genuinely love, love you and help you. And that's why I'm so big on Wanting to create people minds to change, to want to help. [01:48:26] Speaker B: Right. [01:48:28] Speaker A: And then get your exit. [01:48:34] Speaker B: Interesting. The plan. That's great. And yeah, you got to have a plan. [01:48:39] Speaker A: I didn't have a plan and so it cost me. [01:48:42] Speaker B: That's very interesting. You had the first plan, you just didn't use it to kill him. Right? [01:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah, but that. [01:48:49] Speaker B: I know. I'm just. [01:48:50] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I know. Yeah. [01:48:52] Speaker B: But yeah, fortunately for you, because, hey, who knows where you'd have landed if. [01:48:57] Speaker A: If that worked, I'm sure my life wouldn't have went this way. [01:48:59] Speaker B: What a success story. Look at where he's at, where you're at, all these things that you're doing. [01:49:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, it's. It's better to create a plan and leave. Yeah, it's so much better. And like I said, revenge is. When it comes to revenge, the best revenge is success. They hate that. So be successful. [01:49:17] Speaker B: You don't need them. You're just proven that you don't need them. [01:49:20] Speaker A: That's it. [01:49:21] Speaker B: Amen. You've been so gracious to. Come on. I really appreciate you burning all this time with us. Learned a ton. And I will recommend the book. And I do have actually a little parting gift for you. [01:49:33] Speaker A: Okay. [01:49:33] Speaker B: Or two. [01:49:34] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [01:49:37] Speaker B: One, I made sure this was going to be cool because I'm actually a Texan, Although I have a place. I have a place out here in Los Angeles because we love it out here. But I don't stay here long enough to have to pay taxes. I don't want to. I don't want to deal with all that. But this is representative of Texas. It's a Blackland distillery. Which is. They make. They make whiskey with Texas grains and all this kind of stuff. So I want to give you a little something that reps Texas a little bit. So when you come through, you give me a shout. [01:50:05] Speaker A: I like Texas Blackland bourbon whiskey. Okay. [01:50:10] Speaker B: Enjoy it. Slowly but surely. [01:50:13] Speaker A: Okay. [01:50:14] Speaker B: And there's a copy of my book if you ever get bored enough to read on a plane. [01:50:17] Speaker A: Oh, okay. What is this book about? The life in the fishbowl. What is this about? [01:50:22] Speaker B: Oh, I did. I did undercover work too. So I went two years. I did two year deep undercover operation with the Crips. [01:50:29] Speaker A: Really? [01:50:30] Speaker B: Obviously. I mean, really? Yeah. I just fit in by standing out, though. I just. [01:50:35] Speaker A: We're in Texas. [01:50:36] Speaker B: In Texas? Yeah. [01:50:37] Speaker A: What part of Texas? [01:50:39] Speaker B: In Fort Worth area? Dallas. [01:50:40] Speaker A: Fort Worth, Really? [01:50:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:42] Speaker A: I've been to Texas too. [01:50:44] Speaker B: Have you? [01:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I have. I did. I was honored there. In Dallas, Texas. By this organization, I got a humanitarian award. [01:50:53] Speaker B: Oh, cool. [01:50:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And I listened to this man because I don't attend a church, but I listened to this church service every Sunday. And he's from Houston, Texas. We're a Baptist church. [01:51:14] Speaker B: There are a lot of churches in Texas. [01:51:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was like, I'm gonna go back to Texas again. And so I can experience that. [01:51:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:24] Speaker A: And then some of my neighbors are from Texas, too. [01:51:28] Speaker B: Well, let me know if you're ever around there. Need to know places to go. I'll hook you up with some places and people. [01:51:32] Speaker A: That's cool. And thank you for your service. [01:51:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, sure. I left early. I didn't. I did 13 years. [01:51:38] Speaker A: It doesn't matter. You still did something. But are you. So this is what you do now, this podcast? [01:51:46] Speaker B: This is one of the things I'm trying to do. Yeah. Still running the company with the. With the security and protection work, which was fascinating, but you learning. Learning the rules of protection, when you work the detail and all that stuff, you do lots of that with private wealth, folks. It's not like superstars or. [01:52:01] Speaker A: But still. [01:52:02] Speaker B: But you know, it's. It's important work and it's less dramatic when it's just private wealth and you. [01:52:07] Speaker A: Get paid for it. Right? Yeah, that's. Yeah. And so, of course. Does it matter? [01:52:12] Speaker B: I guess not. [01:52:13] Speaker A: No. [01:52:13] Speaker B: This is something I love to do because I get to talk to people like you and learn and. And really, this is my way of manifesting that it's not about me, because I could do a show and feature myself all day long, but I'd rather go on and feature other people that spawn new thought, new ideas, and we don't ever touch politics or anything like that. So a story like yours is like a no brainer. Like, oh, man, this is going to be great. [01:52:37] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. Like I said, I enjoyed being an undercover. It was really fascinating. [01:52:46] Speaker B: And one of the questions I didn't ask, which was my experience, is, did you find things in common with a lot of the people that you worked undercover against, quote unquote? When you were working Vice and Narc, did you find your story in some of those other people? [01:53:03] Speaker A: Most of them, yeah. And let me tell you something. That's when I really was able to humanize people, because I would sit just like you and I, Right. I lived in, like, a housing development and I had an apartment, and we would just have conversations. And these people didn't want that life. It's what they came from. They didn't know no other way. [01:53:27] Speaker B: Right. [01:53:27] Speaker A: I would. I was mentoring a lot of them. Like literally. I remember when. I don't know if I tell this story in the book, but it was this guy I was buying drugs from and I was like mentoring him. He was such a nice guy, but he was a dirtbag because he grew up being a. He was taught to be a dirtbag. And I began to mentor him. And when I went in, it was a big case. I think like 60 something gods we had collared, like doing the opera, the whole operation. [01:54:08] Speaker B: Like a long term. [01:54:09] Speaker A: Yeah, long term. And he was one of them. It was two of them that wanted to take it to trial. And when I walked in the courtroom, he was like, no finger Fantasia, no Fanny. I told you everything. Like, you know, and I. And I was just like, this is just business, dude. [01:54:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:34] Speaker A: You know, but you go out there and you mentor these people because it. [01:54:41] Speaker B: Can get emotional too. [01:54:42] Speaker A: Especially when you have had that life and you understand that life. Right. I don't know if every undercover date. [01:54:48] Speaker B: They'Ve done that, even if you haven't had that life. I think I always tell people, you always feel like you have certain things in common with different people. [01:55:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:55:01] Speaker B: Or good people certainly have that sentiment. But usually we can all agree that if you're a criminal, we don't have anything in common with that. Until you experience something like that or you go and you live amongst a bunch of gang bangers who are the same type of circumstances you're talking about. Some of them please go away and stay away because they live that life and they're so passionate about it, there's no going back. They're going to admit it in debriefings and everything else because they just are about it and other ones are just caught up in it and got, you know, recruited and prayed and then came. So a lot of these guys became. We became really friendly. You know, I was putting money on books and writing letters for 20 years for some of these cats and I'm friends with some of them too. So. Yeah, it's absolutely. Was. Was an eye opening experience. So I, I appreciate you answering that too, because you still have to do a job, but it doesn't make you feel any better about their circumstance. [01:55:59] Speaker A: Right. Especially when you begin to tap into them and really understand why they on this side. [01:56:07] Speaker B: Right. [01:56:07] Speaker A: Some people, like a lot of people get recruited young. [01:56:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:13] Speaker A: Right. And they're trained to beat its way. Yeah. And so they become rotten after that. [01:56:19] Speaker B: And that's why you come full circle and you're running your charities and things like that. Which is why it's so admirable, because you're working both ends, you know? Yes, they need to be arrested, but they also need the help and the treatment afterwards. So you're. You're intercepting a lot of those folks before they get caught up. Too bad. So I appreciate what you do. Thank you for. For coming on. [01:56:37] Speaker A: Thank you. And thank you for this bourbon and your booking that. I will read it all right. On my travels. Thank you for that. And thank you for having me. [01:56:44] Speaker B: Yes, ma'. Am. What's it take? What you going to do? Success. Second grade rules A confident thing to make you do to make you do what they want when they won't be the fool A diplomatic face is the one to see it through don't let those bigots take you off your game or just let them loose Just sit here in the front seat Baby, it ain't that sweet Take a little honey from the money be but don't pay the fool an apolitical magical potion A missing piece at the end of the game A slow roll See the truth and soul motion I never found a 60 fr it's like fire finding motion the truth lies between blurry lines if you're gonna call me back.