6 Years Infiltrating the Mafia - The Real 'Donnie Brasco'

[00:00:00] Speaker A: One of the rules in the Mafia is that if you're a maid guy, and that's somebody that's been officially inducted into a family, if I get into a confrontation with him, I can't lay my hands on him. That's a death sentence. If he's not a made guy, if he wasn't inducted into the family, then he's fair game. So one guy was a made guy, one guy wasn't. On the way out of the room, I just laid out the guy that wasn't a made guy. Because that's all they understand. Because if somebody calls you out, you have to. You have to maintain your credibility, but you have to maintain your respect. You don't hang around with guys 12, 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and not find something decent about him, even though they're stone cold killers. I mean, everybody I hung around with was a stone cold killer. Everybody has a personality. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:50] Speaker A: And it's no different with these guys. They like their kids, they love their kids. If they had grandkids, they love their grandkids, but then again, an hour later, they're whacking somebody that They've known for 20 years. [00:01:33] Speaker B: My next guest needs no introduction, but for those of you who live under a rock, I will be brief. He is the undercover goat. He wrote the book Donnie Brasco about his most popular undercover operation, and there is a movie out by the same name. You should read the book, watch the movie. Stars Al Pacino and Johnny Depp. He spent nearly six years deep undercover away from his family, infiltrating the New York mob. It culminated in over 100 convictions. The man's in witness protection now, and we dig deep into what makes the man who became the hero. Without further ado, please help me in welcoming my new friend, Mr. Joe Pistone. First of all, who was Joe Pistone before the FBI? I mean, in terms of childhood and stuff like that. I know you. You grew up and you talked about your neighborhood and everything, but what kind of person were you as a. As a kid and, you know, your. How malleable were you to your parents and what they taught you? [00:02:35] Speaker A: Well, I. You know, I. I think it goes back how you grow up. I grew up in an Italian family. Both mother and father Italian, very religious, Catholic, you know, and what. In my youth, you know, the neighborhoods were. Were very tight knit, so everybody knew everybody, everybody took care of each other. So you had that sense of, of taking care of your. Your neighbor or somebody that you were close to. I wasn't. I wasn't a troublesome kid. I mean, you know, I got into my share of fights and stuff, but not, not, you know, never robbed anything, Never, you know, stole anything. Kids, just the kid stuff. Growing up in a rough neighborhood, rough Italian neighborhood, that's it. I knew wise guys, you know, from the neighborhood. And growing up Italian back then, you know, you didn't talk unless you were. Unless you were asked a question around a kitchen table. You know, that's the way it was. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:41] Speaker A: You had conversations, but you respected your elders. And that's basically the way it was. That's the way I grew up. I was very much a. Not an outward going kid. In other words, I. I never. I was a pretty good athlete. [00:03:58] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:59] Speaker A: And I never bragged about it. I mean, I just, you know, I mean, I was a good athlete and I played. I played basketball. I was a pretty good basketball player. And I made no big deal of it. I kept to myself a lot. I mean, I had a lot of good friends. Had a lot of friends, but I never pushed myself. And that's the way I grew up. I mean, I wasn't going outward about my basketball abilities or my football abilities. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Do you. Did you consider yourself an introvert as a kid? [00:04:36] Speaker A: In some ways, yeah. Yeah. Again, because I. I wasn't. I wasn't the one in the crowd that was always talking. You know, I was more a listener than a talker. My idea was, if I don't have anything to say, why should I say it? I mean, and that's. I think that's why I was. I was successful in all my undercover operations. Yeah. Because I didn't feel like I had a. I had a talk or have conversation just to keep it going. And that's the way I grew up. Like that. You know, if I was with a bunch of guys and everybody was saying, I just sit back and listen. If I had something I thought was important to say, I'd say it. I didn't talk just to talk. And that's the way I am today, actually. And that's why a lot of people, you know, a lot of people think that I'm standoffish, but, you know, I don't. I never saw the need to make conversation if it didn't have to be. Yeah, there didn't need to be one. I mean, I drove with. I drove from. From Tampa to Miami, which is probably a three hour ride with a wise guy. And I didn't think we. I said one word to him. [00:05:51] Speaker B: And he was fine with that. And he was fine with that. Too. [00:05:53] Speaker A: I guess he was fine with that, too. I mean, you know, there was no need to make conversation because I knew everything that was happening. I knew what would. Why we were going to Miami. And when we got to Miami, then, you know, then the conversation will begin. But, you know, like I said, it's in a car for, like, three hours, three and a half hours, and, you know, not a word. [00:06:16] Speaker B: And that maybe your parents should have written a parenting book because, I mean, it would be a miraculous thing to teach kids these days, too, just to. To be more aware and listening than, you know, active listener instead of an active talker. Right, That's. [00:06:30] Speaker A: That's exactly right. And, you know, I mean, you were in the business. The problem with getting back to undercover is that they always think they have to be talking. They're not good listeners. I mean, I found that out, you know, in my undercover instructions. You know, they always want to be talking dick, but they don't. They don't listen. They never. They never let the bad guy finish a sentence. You know, but that's. I. I was basically a listener forever. [00:07:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And so when you started coming up and then getting into. I mean, you were. You were a teacher at first. Did you teach very long, by the way? Was that something you aspired to do long term or. [00:07:16] Speaker A: No, no, I always wanted to go into law enforcement. That was my. Okay, that was my goal. I taught one year. Then I went into Naval Intelligence. I worked in Naval Intelligence for several years, and then I applied to the FBI. I actually applied to the FBI and dea, but back then, it wasn't dea. It was the. I think it was the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs or something, because I had. When I was in Naval Intelligence, I did a lot of work with the DEA and the FBI, So I was recruited by both. But I got called to the FBI first to take their test, and I was fortunate enough to pass it. [00:08:02] Speaker B: When you started thinking about undercover work, was that something that was commonplace? Because I know in today's world, it's really atypical for anyone to go deep undercover. Certainly deep undercover is what I'm talking about. You know, undercover gigs that are, you know, by bus and stuff like that are all the time. Was. What was it like back then? Was it a groundbreaking experience to go through something like that? [00:08:26] Speaker A: Well, you know, back in the day when that, you know, when I first started, look, I. I went into the FBI in 1969. So all the undercover there were probably throughout the whole country, maybe 25, 30 guys that did undercover. But it Was all, you know, it was all like by bust, you know, right? Bought, you bought art, you bought commodity, you know, stolen commodities, stuff like that. You might have had one or two meets with the bad guy. And then on the third, fourth meet, you know, they get busted. We didn't start doing long term, you know, and deep cover. There's not many, there's, there's not many deep cover operations, right? There never has been any many. There's been some. We've had agents, you know, that went deep cover, but the deep cover operations are very few. One of the first ones was actually a sting operation out of Washington D.C. where the FBI and the Metropolitan police opened up a pawn shop, so to speak. And they got the word out that they were buying stolen property. So that went on for a long time. And they had a couple FBI agents and a couple Washington D.C. coppers that were work in the pawn shop, you know, but these guys went home every night. So as far as deep cover, you know, for your audience, you know, there's a difference between undercover and there's a difference between deep cover. You know, undercover. Like we just discussed, you, you, you, you go back to your office. You normally, you're, you go home every night. Now when you go deep cover, you walk out of that office, you walk out of your office and you walk, you leave your, you know, you leave your gun behind, you leave your credentials behind, you leave your badge behind. And you never go back to that office as long as you're working the operation. And you also move out of your residence. And yet, you know, you have, you get an undercover residence, you know, you don't go back to your home base maybe, you know, once every few months, and that's deep cover. Once. Once you're out there, you're out there on your own. And that's a lot of people, A lot of people can't do it, and a lot of people won't do it. I don't blame anybody for not doing it because you leave your, leave your life behind you. If you have a family, you're basically leaving your family behind you. And it takes, it takes a certain mental toughness to do, to do the deep cover because you're out there, you know, yourself, not many officers. And when I say officers, I'm talking about feds too, you know, they like to operate without their gun and, and badge, you know, and when you're in deep undercover, you're operating with your fake id. That's it. That, that's all you're operating with, right? And that takes a different mindset, that takes a different mental toughness to be able to do that. And I think, you know, and I always, I always say you can be a great. To be a good undercover, deep undercover, you have had to be a great street cop or street agent. But just because you're a great street agent or gate, great street cop doesn't mean you're going to be a good undercover agent. Does that make sense to you? [00:12:18] Speaker B: Well, it makes sense to me because, because, you know, and the audience may not know. Maybe we get more into the weeds here. Because if you're a great street cop, you also have mannerisms like a great street cop. And that you're going to have to undo that at some point, right? [00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Right. [00:12:36] Speaker B: But you also have developed a street sense to where you kind of, you honed your intuitive sense, right? [00:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you know, you got to have good street smarts to be, to be a good, A good cop or good undercover. You know, so like I say, you could, you could be a good undercover, but you're not gonna, you might not be so good at deep undercover because, you know, you have that in back of your mind. You know, I don't have my gun with me, I don't have my badge with me. You may be good at, you know, one or two, one or two meets or one or two week operations, but you still have that connection to your home base, to your home base, to your family, to your, to your organization. So there's a big difference between that and, and that's why you don't have a lot of deep undercover operations. You may have a lot of long term where the organization starts a business and the undercovers are working in the business, but then they go home at night to their families and they don't really socially socialize with the bad guys. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Right. And they have cover the whole time too. They're working with other people. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah, they got covered the whole time. But in a lot of deep undercover situations, you don't have cover because nobody's going to. You know, once you start that, that's a, that's a seven day a week job. 24, seven. Because the bad guys, in the beginning, it's like we see a Monday to Friday, where the hell are you? Saturday and Sunday. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:18] Speaker A: You know. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:19] Speaker A: So now you got a seven day a week job. And I don't blame a lot of guys that they don't want to, they don't want to give up their, their weekends and you know, especially today's, Today's generation, you know, so well. [00:14:36] Speaker B: And, and it's not it. And I could be off here. Tell me if you've learned any different. It's not really permissible in very many places either, just because of the liability and the risk and everything that comes with it. And all the stories about the cowboys that go off and start doing all kinds of crazy stuff because they're not actually disciplined undercovers or know what they're doing, they just go out and start acting a fool to try to fit in. There's a lack of training in a lot of different places. So it's. I know it's tough in municipal departments and sheriff departments and stuff like that. I know it's difficult to actually get permission to even try to do stuff like that. And is it, is it like that in the feds these days as well? Was it difficult to convince somebody to let you go do something so long term, even though you kind of didn't know it was going to be as long as it ended up being. [00:15:23] Speaker A: I think if you have a good case going, you know, the only problem is, is now there's so many different rules. Like the undercover has to check in every day, you know, with your contact agent. They're not gonna, they, they want surveillance on you 24 7. And you know, like in my case, you know, with the mafia in New York, you can't have. I can't have surveillance 247 in. In those neighborhoods. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:53] Speaker A: But so that's why I think that the days of deep cover long term are pretty much, pretty much history. [00:16:06] Speaker B: And so how did they, how did you end up finagling permission? Because when you, you mentioned, hey, if you have a good case going, a lot of times you, you back in the day would get, you know, permission to go move ahead. And in this particular case, if you paint a picture about how you kind of got drawn into it and then started off your first six months without really establishing squat, even though you and I know you actually did establish quite a bit, but in a supervisor's eyes, for instance, you have to keep reporting in. And after five and six months that you had to feel like, man, they're going to pull a plug on this some gun any time is, is how did you manage to keep them allowing you to, to keep diving into this, spending money, time, resources, all this stuff on that case. And how did you end up kind of growing into that? [00:16:59] Speaker A: Well, you know, my case, I was working out in New York and, and back in the day, you know, New York, obviously the biggest office in The Bureau, most of the bosses and the supervisors that were in New York were, were old time street guys. And you know, and it the same was, there's, there's Washington D.C. and then there's New York. So New York kind of, New York kind of did what New York wanted to do because, because a lot of the, a lot of the supervisors in, in D.C. were, were old time New Yorkers. So, you know, you had that, you had that connection. And I was lucky enough that I had a, a supervisor that, that was an old time New Yorker, grew up in New York, had worked some undercover against the mob in his day when he, you know, so he, you know, he knew you don't just walk into a place and say, hey, you know, I'm, I'm Donnie Brasco and I'm going to, you know, I'm a jewel thief and I want to start working with you. I mean, you don't do that against a mob. So a lot of it has to come to what, what, what office you were in and how they treated the operation and what you were provided. I wasn't, you know, my first five, six months, I wasn't really providing any information of illegal activity, but I was providing intelligence information by hitting these different bars and restaurants. You know, hey, so and so hangs out here. So and so hangs out here. These guys meet every, every Wednesday at, at this, at this restaurant. So it was pretty much intelligence until I broke in with a couple guys and then I was able to start developing the illegal information. [00:19:04] Speaker B: Okay, so you were the intelligence gatherer too. So they were kind of leaning on you. So you were providing it at the very least, Yes, I can confirm. XYZ shows up over here, I'm moving over here and working on garnering some relationships as you're getting at least, you know, kind of a lay of the land set up for yourself, right? [00:19:23] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that, that, that's where it was in the beginning. [00:19:27] Speaker B: Okay. [00:19:28] Speaker A: Made some headway and, and broke the ice and, and start hanging, got accepted and start hanging with guys that were doing illegal, illegal activities. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Right. And how much of your personality did you leverage? And I'm, I'm, I, I respect the fact that it could be different in how you teach vert now versus teaching undercovers versus how you did it. But how much of your actual personality did you leverage? Because when you talked about the FBI doing undercover ops and stuff, if you're working at a local department, you're staying in your own city or you're staying in your own county or Whatever. But you're, they're moving you around, so you have to acclimate, I assume. But how much, how much do you think is reasonable to change in terms of your personality? And, and was it an advantage or disadvantage? [00:20:21] Speaker A: Well, my, my theory is you never change your personality. No matter what undercover operation I worked in, I never changed my personality. I never changed my character. And I think that's, that's one of the problems with a lot of, a lot of undercovers, young undercovers, they think they're with, they're with bad guys, so you gotta act a certain way. Well, I never changed my personality. I was, I was always a laid back guy and, and not pushy, never, you know, didn't talk unless I had to talk. And I maintained that in all my undercover operations before the sixth year, when I had come off a year, in a couple months operation, and I was the same guy on that. There was a car theft ring that I had infiltrated. But I think that's the key to success, is being yourself, just being yourself. That's the key to success. Because, look, not to be a psychiatrist, but everybody has a personality. And just because you're a bad guy doesn't mean you have. Every bad guy has a personality. You know, some of them have B, C, D and E. So you just have to be who you are. And that's the way I was. You know, I never got in anybody's face unless you got into mine. And that's the way I was in real life, you know, And I think that was the secret to my success in all my undercover operations is just being who I was. [00:21:56] Speaker B: Does that make it more. I guess my question that I, that I would have asked earlier, that I missed too, was, do you think there are certain people that have a knack for this, that you can tweak and allow to take and run with this and that have a natural innate ability? Or do you think it can be taught? Because a lot of. There's so much nuance in this stuff. [00:22:22] Speaker A: I always tell the students, I can't teach you to be an undercover agent. The only thing I can do is after the first few days and running scenarios if you have it. All we can do is tweak it and give you pointers how to infiltrate and how to stay alive while you infiltrate. I mean, nobody can teach you to be an undercover agent. No, you either have that, that sense or you don't have that sense. [00:22:59] Speaker B: That makes sense. And I've noticed too, and I don't know all of them. There have to be some that I'm keenly unaware of. But you ran into so many situations that would have broken normal folks. Even other good undercovers would have broken under the strain of some of the circumstances that you found yourself within, whether it be the boat with the FBI or having to assault somebody. I mean, maybe we start there. So you had a situation where I'll let you set the scene where you had to actually punch somebody in the face. And my question would be, did anything cross your mind at the time that didn't have to do with the case? Did it ever occur to you that I'm about to do something that is against my general orders or whatever? And what is the FBI going to say if they find out about this right away? Obviously, we all know about it now, but I assume it wasn't like something that you made a big deal out of then. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you. You know yourself that there's only one person that saves your life, another cover, and that's you. You know, that. That. That's that surveillance team, your SWAT team, hrt, SEAL team six. They come in after, right? It's action versus reaction. The action is when they kill you. The reaction is when you're. When your team comes in to drag your ass out of there, right? So, you know, in that situation, I had two guys call me out when I say call me out. You know, not to get into a long, drawn out story, but I had. I had turned down a couple scores that they had lined up, and they didn't like it, so they wanted to question me. And that was their right. You know, they had a gun on the table, doors locked, and, you know, we're in that room for four and a half, five hours once it's all over. And you have to know the organization that you've infiltrated. So after it's all over, you can't just go up and say, hey, you know, Tegan, I appreciate the fact that, you know, that you had some concerns, but let bygones be bygones. Doesn't work that way. Because in their mind, then why isn't. Why isn't this guy mad? Why isn't he PO'd about this deal? So the only thing to stand at this time is a confrontation is a confrontation. So. And again, you know, I always tell everybody, you have to know your enemy. You know, the art of war, Know your enemy. And in the undercover business, to know everything about your enemy. Are there rules, regulations, how do they have. How do they live their life according to their organization? And one of the rules in the Mafia is that if you're a made guy, and that's somebody that's been officially inducted into a family, he can't, he can't be his, he can't be hit. In other words, if I get into a confrontation with him, I can't lay my hands on him. [00:26:27] Speaker B: It's the rules of the street. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Rules of the street, because that's a death sentence. But if he's not a made guy, if he wasn't inducted into the family, then he's fair game. So one guy was a made guy, one guy wasn't. On the way out of the room, I just laid out the guy that wasn't a made guy because that's all they understand. That's all I understand. Right. And I got into confrontation with him, the maid guy. Fortunately, you know, got a lot of good shots on me, but I couldn't, I just could. Only thing I can do was defend myself against him. [00:27:06] Speaker B: Sure. [00:27:07] Speaker A: And that's where I would have acted in, in normal life, you know, because if somebody calls you out, you have to, you have to maintain your credibility, but you have to maintain your respect. Especially, you know, you know, you've been a street guy. If you lose your respect on the street, you're done. You're done. [00:27:26] Speaker B: Right. And that's kind of your furthering your street cred at that point. Right, by exactly, exactly playing the game. And they, then they respect and appreciate that you know the rules. So you're playing within, however you're not playing within the rules of the FBI. So did that ever cross your mind or did you have to report it or keep it quiet at the time? How did that work? [00:27:45] Speaker A: I never reported that, you know, because then you, you know, then you got to do, look, then you got to do paperwork and yeah, nobody got hurt. I mean, you know, the guy that I, that I got some good licks in, he, you know, they didn't have to take him to the hospital. I, I, you know, I didn't have to go to the hospital, so why report it, you know? [00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And some of these folks that, that we're dealing with here, people have, I think, you know, when we talk about having a lots of things in common with different types of people, I think most people would agree that criminals are the one sect of people that we have the least amount in common with. But I, I, I discovered there's still a ton in common with even the criminal guys. And, and I've heard you talk about guys like Tony Mira being like, you know, one of the nastiest cats that you ever dealt with and things like that. Is there anything maybe start with Tony, but any of the other guys too, that, that you found over a period of time that you could really relate to? Not necessarily in every way. Obviously, they're criminals and you were a, you know, law enforcement hero, so there's that. But other, other things in common that you appreciated about those guys. [00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, look, you don't hang around with guys, you know, 12, 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and, you know, and not find something decent about him, even though they're stone cold killers. I mean, everybody I hung around with was a stone cold killer. You know, my legend was I was an orphan. So when it came, you know, when it came holidays. Donnie, where are you going? Well, you know. Well, you're coming to, you know, you're coming to my house for dinner. You know, you're not going to spend Christmas Eve alone. You're not going to spend Christmas alone. You know, these are guys that, you know, that, that may have taken out their cousins, may have taken out some, you know, somebody that they, they grew up with. You find it like one guy, Sonny Black, he was my captain. I mean, this guy at one time was one of the two guys running the Bonanno family. And I used to stay at his apartment when I didn't feel like going back uptown or something. And we, you know, we just BS about, about his kids about anything, you know, or other guys where you couldn't. You couldn't get any conversation about anything personal because they were, you know. So that's why I go back to the personalities, you know, Everybody has a personality. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:35] Speaker A: And it's no different with these guys. They like their kids. They love their kids. If they had grandkids, they love their grandkids, so they have that quality. But then again, an hour later, they're whacking somebody that they've known for 20 years, like Tony Mirror. Tony Mirror's own nephew whacked him. So it's like, crazy. And I mean, Tony Mirror was probably the meanest guy I ever met, but he loved his mother. I mean, everybody loves their mother. But he took, you know, his mother was elderly and he took care of his mother, but he was. The guy was just plain nasty. I mean, wise guys didn't like him. That's nasty for a wise guy not to like you, you know? [00:31:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So was there anything else in common maybe that you and Tony had in common and specifically Tony, because I know he's the one that you had, you know, the most disdain for just because the way he carried himself and everything right away. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Carry himself and, and he tried to have me killed three times. He had. He called three sit downs where, you know, where he made charges against me that I stole money from the family. The only thing we had in common is I didn't like him and he didn't like me. [00:31:58] Speaker B: That's. [00:31:59] Speaker A: We had a. That's what we had in common. [00:32:01] Speaker B: We'll take it some of those people exist. We all know that, too. So you can find the beauty in small things. And that's a great thing to have in common with that cat. That's funny. So when you mentioned Sonny Black. So if, if you don't mind at least giving a brief history. And his demise was truly remarkable. And I wonder, my question as you set this up is if you would have been able to look back on this case and know that that was going to be his fate, would you have changed any way that you approached him or even gone out of your way to possibly try to pull him aside and give yourself up so that he could survive or whatever. Whatever. The answer would be, would you change anything knowing that? [00:32:55] Speaker A: The only thing I did was look to fill your audience in if they don't know. Sonny Block was a capo, a captain in the Benald crime family. And when he was my captain, he was one of the two guys running the family because the boss was in jail. They had killed a boss and they had pointed a guy by name, Russelli, as boss, but he was in jail. And then there was a, an internal war within the Bonanno family and the side I was with, which was Sonny Black side, they get killed. Three capos that want to take over the family. And like I say, Sonny Black, even though he was a, you know, a stone cold killer, he's a guy you could sit down and talk to. You know, we had, you know, great conversation. Like I said, I used to sleep at his apartment sometimes. When it got into it, I knew, look, that, that he probably was going to get killed when this thing ended because of his association with me. Because he had introduced me, he actually had introduced me as a maid guy. He had sent me to Florida to talk to two maid guys and tell them that, you know, the situation in the family. And when he had told them I was coming down, he told them that I was a maid guy. So they had to sit. They had to sit down with me. But when we decided, when the FBI decided to close the operation, I said, look, you might Want to go talk to Sonny. Because I knew that he had, you know, he was reasonable. And that was one of the ways that. That I, I could have saved him if. If he be, you know, if he turned and became an informant. Yeah, but he didn't. I mean, he talked about a. A stone cold gangster. It was Sonny Black. I mean, because he knew that he was going to his, you know, his demise. My whole mind, Tegan, my thinking in these operations. Look, I wasn't causing you becoming a gangster. You were gangster before I got there. You were a gangster while I was associated with you. And you're probably going to stay a gangster in jail. [00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:11] Speaker A: Want to see anybody get killed? But I wasn't going to go tell them while I was under, you know what I mean? That was. That was their decision after they found out who I was, if they wanted to come over to our side. So the agents go to talk to him and he says, well, he said, you know, if I see Donnie, then. I know, I know. You know, the first thing he does, you know, he calls his crew together to tell them. And then, of course, they have to, you know, they got to report to the boss. They got to report that, hey, this, you know, Donnie really undercover agent. So to tell you the type of guy Sonny was, he gets called to a meeting. They call a sit down, which is basically a meeting, and he goes into his bar, the Motion Lounge. He gives all his money, he gives his ring, he gives his keys, except his car keys to the bartender and says, hey, I'm going to a sit down, and I'm probably not coming back. [00:36:23] Speaker B: Intense. [00:36:24] Speaker A: Crazy, right? Right. [00:36:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:27] Speaker A: He calls his friend, his girlfriend, and tells her the same thing. And then he says, if I don't come back, I want you to get in touch with the FBI and, And pass this message on to Donnie. Right? So she can't. She can't dissuade him from going to the. He goes to sit down, he gets to the. He gets to the house and they shoot him. They kill him. Yeah. I mean, and he knew it. He knew he wasn't coming back. You know, do they have guys like that today? Probably not. Probably not. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Probably not. I mean, that is. That is staunch. That's straight gangster, right? And everybody plans on, hey, I may be in prison or jail, but I'm going to be rich in the interim. But they. They really don't think. Think about that. And most, most people eventually will flip. And there's a lot of people that will go take a sentence if they know, hey, I'm going to go. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Ruggerio did 15, you know, and he got out because he had cancer, and he eventually passed away. It was another one, another guy in a crew, Nikki Santoro. I think he did maybe 12 or 15, you know, did his time, but I don't know how many guys would have went to that. Sit down. Knowing that I. Probably not going to talk my way out of this one. [00:38:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you just, you know, and that. Does that lift any of the burden off of you knowing that even though, you know and I know this is not your fault, there's got to be a sense of. It's got to be some sense of sadness when that happens because you, you know, you wrap this up and then you had all the control over this case, and then all of a sudden the AUSAs get their hands on everything. FBI is working and they're wrapping it up, and then these guys. You have nothing to do with the sentencing or how they cooperate or whatever. I mean, you can try to help them understand. But was that a frustrating part of the process, dealing with that? And do you ever, you know, have you ever think about him, you know, in retrospect? [00:38:47] Speaker A: Well, like I said, I. I didn't want to see anybody get killed, but, you know, my feeling was he had it. You know, he had the shot to turn and he didn't. [00:38:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:58] Speaker A: You know, he knew what the life was, and he knew that he was in that life and. And he was going to stick to that life. Now, the same thing with Roger. You know, he could have turned, but he. He. He chose to do his time, you know, he chose to do his time. And like I say, you know, my whole thing was, look, I didn't choose that life for them. They chose it, you know. [00:39:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:26] Speaker A: They're the ones that chose that life. And they had the shot that they had the shot to save themselves, but they didn't. [00:39:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that you are responsible for that. [00:39:36] Speaker A: Oh, no, yeah. No, I know. Yeah. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Yeah. But I. I know also that, you know, you can. You can become emotionally attached to people over a year, two years, let alone six. So I just, you know, I can't imagine. [00:39:49] Speaker A: Sure. [00:39:50] Speaker B: You know, you know, was it. It had to be traumatic for you to some extent when that happened, was it not? [00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah. The only. The only one I. The only one I had no feelings for was Mirror. That didn't. That didn't bother me at all. Be honest with you. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Yeah, good riddance. That's funny. So during this time, I Think the other unappreciable thing here is, and if you don't mind, I don't mean to get into sensitive areas, but especially when we go back and talk about the difference between deep cover work and typical under short term undercover work by bus etc, is that you had very short stints during that six year period where you could come home and you have a wife and two daughters at home during that time. Did you have both your daughters at that time too, during this? [00:40:38] Speaker A: Three at the time. [00:40:39] Speaker B: Three. Okay, so. So how much did your daughters know about what was going on and how were they affected, first of all, or. [00:40:49] Speaker A: Well, during the operation, all they knew that I was away working, obviously they knew I was an FBI agent. They knew I was away working. My wife knew I was working undercover, but she had no idea that I was working against the Mafia because she knew that I did a lot of undercover work. Of course, like I said, I just come off a year that I was away on that car theft ring. It affected him more when they found out it was against the mafia. That's, you know, okay. You know, when they put a cut, when they put a, a contract out on me, then the kids had to move. They had to, you know, change schools, move out of the state because they weren't living in New York City or new at the, at the time. They were living across country, but they had a, you know, they had to uproot. From what? From where they were and. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. How old were they at that time when they had to uproot? [00:41:48] Speaker A: They were in high school, grammar school, grammar school and high school. Yeah, yeah. [00:41:53] Speaker B: So that's a tough time to move, I mean. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Especially, especially high school, you know. Yeah, yeah. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Any resentment from them at the time? [00:42:01] Speaker A: There might have been, but not, not outwardly. I, I think my kids got a little bit of me in them, you know. As far as that, of course, my wife, she talked to anybody, you know. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, and your wife Maggie, and she. I would love to know who she was because everyone always asking me, and I didn't do six years, so I can't imagine what an extraordinary woman she was to be able to put up with you and then put up with you being gone without being able to share any of that stuff, you know, give me a little background on her because I think people would be amazed. [00:42:42] Speaker A: To know we met in high school and. Well, second year high school, of course, she went to a different high school, but that's when we met and she was Tough Irish lady. I mean she was athletic, mind of her own, never ask anybody to do anything for. Very, very strong minded, very popular and very popular in high school and a strong lady, you know, she always worked out, but she had, she had a strong, strong mind. Nobody was going to tell her what to do. You know what I mean? [00:43:35] Speaker B: I know exactly what you mean. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, I attribute that to being Irish, you know that. Yeah, she's a strong Irish lady. I mean she, she raised three kids and not, not none of them troublesome. I can't say. You know, she never complained about squat. I mean the only thing she complained about was I'd call home and, and you know, the dishwasher, the washing machine doesn't work. You know, what do you want from me? The washing machine don't work, you know, the lawnmower doesn't work. I mean that's the only thing she complained. She, you know, she never looked for pity. She never, never complained. She was just a good lady. She was a good lady. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:22] Speaker A: And I miss her every day. Yeah. [00:44:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And so how did, how did you manage the actual relationship that you had too? Because I mean, I mean having a marriage involves a lot of work already, so I can't imagine the time. Apartment. It's almost like a, a military deployment style thing. But for that many years you only had a few different touch points. Was, were there any practices that you enacted in order like, hey, we're going to only talk about this or that or whatever in order to just kind of keep the relationship healthy? [00:44:57] Speaker A: I would, I would call her every day. I would call every day. Not that all the conversations were lovey dovey, but I would call every day. [00:45:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:08] Speaker A: And like I say, that's the only thing she ever complained about was, you know, this doesn't work or that doesn't work. And I mean one day she says, hey, I just went out and bought a new car, you know, what'd you buy? She said, I bought a Cadillac, you know. Yeah. I said, well, you know, if that's what you like, that's what you got, you know. But that was, that was her. I mean she was just tough. Yeah. And she got along with everybody. She got, you know, I mean she was, she was a mother to almost every one of my kids friends and they could sit down and talk to her about anything. I mean my, my kids friends would come and talk to her about problems they were having. [00:45:55] Speaker B: That's. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's the type of lady she was. Yes. Yeah. [00:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And really I can tell she was your saving grace, but she may have been your kid's saving grace, too, by just being so strong and holding it up like there isn't a lot of trauma happening, even if she's, you know. [00:46:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that, that, that had a lot to do with it, was that I didn't have that pressure from. From her, you know, because, look, you worked undercover. You know, you got. Here's all the people you have to the mistresses you got undercover, right. You got your organization, you got to please them. Right. You got to please your family, and then you got to please the bad guys. So, yeah, you. You got three mistresses that, you know. And fortunately, you know, she didn't put that much pressure on me as far as, you know, things that. That. That would work on your mind, you know. Yeah. [00:46:56] Speaker B: And she probably didn't want to overstress you either, knowing what you were doing. Something important. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's. That's what she did. That's the way she operated. Yeah. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Did you ever go to her before you jumped into these operations? I know this first one. I know your first one's were long, but not as long as this. Did you ever have a conversation about whether or not you would do this? Because I can't imagine. Back to the undercover stereotype, but I can't imagine that you could actually do deep undercover operations if you didn't have a supportive spouse. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Well, I, you know what I talked about working undercover, and, you know, and she said, if that's what you're good at, you know, and that's what you. You want to do, she wasn't going to, you know, hold me back from doing it. And again, you know, if you work undercover, that's, that's. That's your big, big thing in the back of your mind is, you know, your family and, and she just. She just kept everybody together, you know, so. Yeah. [00:48:02] Speaker B: That's awesome. Is there anything that. Anything that you missed that you regret? Obviously you don't regret doing this, because I think this paid off in spades, obviously. And you've done a lot for society by doing this. And this was like doing something noble outside of yourself. And I'm sure your family shares in that sacrifice. But is there anything you missed, family wise, that you regret? [00:48:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. I miss. I miss my kids growing up. I think about that a lot. Now, give you an example. I had. My one daughter was making her confirmation, and I had flew home for that, and it was either confirmation or communion. It was so long ago. Now, but at any rate, I get a call from. Or, you know, I had a call in every day because I told that with these guys, they always have to know where you are. So I just told them I was going to California. So I call in and I said, hey, you got to get to Miami. We got a piece of work now. Piece of work is they're gonna. They're gonna hit somebody. Oh, so you gotta be there by tomorrow or whatever. Well, the next day was Sunday was the. My. My daughter's. Yeah, it was confirmation of communion. I don't remember. So now I got to tell my wife. I got to catch a red eye. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:37] Speaker A: And she's like, whoa, you know. Yeah. You know, I just had to tell my daughter, hey, I gotta go back to work. You know, so that. That. That. That bothers me. You know, things like that, like birthdays and. And. And holidays, you know, because you're an orphan. So these guys want you there, right? You know, they think you're an orphan. [00:50:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:50:05] Speaker A: They think they're being good to you. So when I look back. When I. When I look back and. And now, and I'm like, if the operation wasn't a success, I'd be kicking myself in the rear. But it was such a success that, you know, but would I do it again? Probably not. Probably not. I wouldn't spend that time away knowing everything that I missed, you know? [00:50:33] Speaker B: Interesting is. Is part of that decision also recognizing only in retrospect how close to death you were also, and that if you did it again, you may not be so lucky. Any of that come to mind ever? [00:50:47] Speaker A: No, Tayan, it didn't. It just. It's just the things I miss with my family. [00:50:51] Speaker B: Okay. [00:50:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's all, you know, that's. That's things that. That. That bother me the most now. Nothing. Nothing in the operation bothers me, but that bothers me is all the things I miss with the family. Yeah. [00:51:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I can completely understand that. And when you got back, I assume even though your personality was close, and I don't want to get all stereotypical and movie like here, but I also feel like there is a. A segment of yourself that you kind of start losing and you assimilate into this Persona, even though a lot of it is your own to fit into these gangsters world, you're also changing a lot of what you would normally do. Right. So how much of that affected either your visits or moreover, once this thing came to a close after nearly six years, how long do you feel like it took you to get back to Joe again where you felt like, okay, I'm completely at, at peace with myself and my family recognizes me as normal Joe again. [00:52:00] Speaker A: I, I think what, what bothers just is that. When you do come home, right. Not really the boss anymore. [00:52:12] Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah. [00:52:15] Speaker A: You know, like you're home and somebody's going, where you going? Well, I'm going. Well, I just, I'm, you know, I'm home. Yeah, well, you're home. So you haven't been home for six months. You know, we've got a B and C to do, you know, and even my wife, she's. I'm going to, I'm going to play tennis, you know, but I just got home three hours ago. Yeah, but my tennis is, I mean stuff like that, that to me, that, that's what took a while to get used to until then, then they accepted. Well, you know, now he's back to being the head of the family. Sure, sure. Even though you're not really, but, you know. Well, yeah, it lets you think you are. Yeah. [00:53:07] Speaker B: And part of that's just you're a good man too. So I understand. Conceding to your better half. I know, I know how that works. [00:53:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:14] Speaker B: So I respect that too. Do you have any regrets about the sentences and stuff after this? Because I know some of them, I mean, you had some fairly kingpin esque guys going in for 12 and 15 years and I know parts, you know, we had 200 indictments they tried to make and at least half of those went. But a lot of the bigger guys still got some smaller amounts of time versus what you would pick. Maybe. Any of those seem upside down or if they work out okay? [00:53:45] Speaker A: No, everybody got, everybody got at least 12, 15 years, you know, I mean, I think we did pretty good, you know, in what made me feel good thing is that our operation was the beginning of the downfall of the mafia. Yeah, I mean from our operation we were able, you know, in all the cases that followed, you know, information from our operation was, was in every affidavit, in every mob case that followed. And we were able to reduce the mafia to just another organized crime group in the United States. I mean we took. Look back in the day, they controlled the United States. There wasn't anything that moved in this country that they didn't get a piece of. Yeah, how was that? Because they controlled all the unions. They controlled all the major unions. We took that away from them. Are they involved in illegal activities today? Yeah, but they don't control the country like they Once did. Like I say, they're just another organized crime group. Yeah, yeah, that's. [00:55:01] Speaker B: It was, it was remarkable. And I didn't mean to imply. I wouldn't. It's still, I mean, this is why people consider you the goat. I mean, this is, this was a pretty. It set a precedent for everything to come right afterwards. But, you know, as sometimes guys will, you know, since again, you don't have control over what the convictions are. [00:55:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:20] Speaker B: I know that. I know sometimes you'd think, well of these guys, I wish this guy would have gotten less, but I damn sure wish this guy would have gotten more and, and so on and so on. But you're fairly happy with how it all washed out? [00:55:31] Speaker A: Yeah, that. Yeah, I, I had no, no complaints about any convictions. You know, in fact, there were guys that I, you know, there were a couple guys that were hangar on ers. They were family when I, you know, they were young guys. When I say young guys in their late 20s that would like petty thieves, you know, and I never laid anything on them. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Okay, so you kind of let some people slide that were kind of connectors. [00:56:06] Speaker A: You know, I knew the guys, they, you know, they had young kids and, you know, like I say petty thieves, you know, they might have, you know, took a box off a truck or something, you know, and what am I going to do? You know, I mean, that's just me. I mean, you know. [00:56:25] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's remarkable. That's remarkable because again, that is you saying, look, I'm here to do a job. This is it. Everyone's picked their deal. But you were able to kind of step outside the, the boundaries per se, whether you're punching somebody in the face or deciding not to put this guy in the paperwork so that he doesn't get tied up in a conspiracy that. [00:56:47] Speaker A: You know, like a couple of them, they had never been arrested before, so they had no sheet, you know, And I'm thinking, well, maybe if they get a, you know, maybe when, when the crew gets arrested, these guys might, you know, because they had legitimate jobs. You know, they were construction workers, so it wasn't like they didn't work, you know, but they would boost, you know, boost off a truck or something. It's like. [00:57:14] Speaker B: Ever kept in touch with any of those guys or any of the other guys that have got out? Never. [00:57:19] Speaker A: No. [00:57:21] Speaker B: Any. Anybody that you would be interested in connecting with if they reached out to you? Assuming I know you're not trying to. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Poke the bear, but if, if they reached out, my whole thing was he once my Case was done. It was done. I didn't want to make any arrest. I never arrested any of them. I'll see you in court. Next time I see you, I'll be on a witness stand. That's the way, you know, that was my mindset. If you reached out. If they reached out to me. Okay, I'd give you an example. I told you about Sonny Black, right? Yeah. They kill him. Okay. When it's. When it's verified that he's gone, the FBI gets a call, right? And this young lady says, I need to talk to Donnie. You know, to Donnie Brasco. So what do you have to talk to him about? Well, it's personal, all right? They pick her up and they bring her to Washington, D.C. so myself, her, and the two New York agents, we go out to dinner and she relays the story about Sonny. Right? We already had known that from informants. So it's. Now it's, you know, it's verified. This is it. It's legit. So she says, Sonny told me on that call that if I don't come back, that I'm to get in touch with you and to relay this message to you. He didn't. He doesn't have any ill feelings towards you. You were just better than they were. And he wants. It. Wanted me to tell you that he loved you. Wow. [00:59:13] Speaker B: You know, that's profound. [00:59:16] Speaker A: That's. That's heavy, you know? [00:59:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very heavy. [00:59:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:20] Speaker B: And again. And like I said, you're. You're a tough guy, but I know, you know, you've already proven, even in some of the other things where you say, look, this kid, you know, boosted a couple things off a truck, but I didn't want to, like, ruin his life for that. Yeah, I know you have a heart that's gotta. That's gotta hit you, man. [00:59:36] Speaker A: He. You know, he didn't have a. He didn't have a sheet or anything, so what are you gonna do, you know? [00:59:42] Speaker B: Well, having a heart is. Is why I was asking those questions about Sonny Black, too, because it's. I know it's. It's gotta. It's gotta pain you to some degree. I'm not saying it's gonna stick with you to where you can't function or anything, but. But, yeah, you know, tough guys have a heart, too. And I think you've proven. [00:59:56] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I mean, probably if I wasn't. If I wasn't in law enforcement, even though. And I. I still knew that Sonny Black was a. Was a mob guy, right? And I Was a legit guy. I still would go to dinner with him. I mean, that's the kind of guy, he was beautiful. We didn't have to sit and talk about mob's stuff. You know, we, we talked about his family, talked about his kids. You know, I, of course, I had a lie about being an orphan, but, you know, the stuff from him was, was, was true, you know, so I always thought, you know, even though he was a gangster, I could still be his friend not having anything to do with illegal activities. You know, just maybe have lunch with him or have dinner with him or something and you know, just talk about whatever. [01:01:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So that would be the guy that had he made it, you may have kept in touch with. If you had to pick one, that probably would have been the cat. [01:01:11] Speaker A: Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:13] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:01:13] Speaker A: Or, you know, if he had turned, then I would have gone and seen him. [01:01:18] Speaker B: Right. [01:01:18] Speaker A: You know, he was that type of guy, you know, but, you know, did he have hits under his belt? Yeah, he did, you know. Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:29] Speaker B: And that's why I asked about some of those kingpin guys that are, you know, that got, hey, they got 15 years. That's great. But, you know, they got six bodies on them, too, that you're not getting convicted of. Yeah, kind of a big deal. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So. [01:01:44] Speaker B: And so now you're doing lots of training. Tell me about maybe what are your thoughts on this new generation? Because I know you mentioned that at the beginning when we, when we first linked here, and there's some, there's some good and bad and ugly, but what do you think it's going to take for law enforcement to improve from here? Because obviously it needs improvement. What are some of the things you're seeing? [01:02:05] Speaker A: Well, I think what I see and is they. They don't know how to. They don't know how to converse with people. They don't know how to carry on a conversation. Why? Because I do is text, right? Yeah, all I do is text each other. [01:02:26] Speaker B: So you go undercover on the phone, you'd be in good shape, but otherwise. [01:02:30] Speaker A: You'D be in great shape. I think that's, I mean, from what I see in any, any classes that I, that I lecture at is that they can't go one on one with you in, in a conversation. And I, I don't know. You know, I mean, I, I don't have that much. I haven't trained with the FBI for several years, so I can't comment on, on their undercovers. The only thing I can say is nobody's been killed. Yet. So that's doing something right. [01:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. [01:03:06] Speaker A: They're doing something right, you know. [01:03:08] Speaker B: Well, and you've contributed a lot to their training. The, the Safeguard Unit in particular, which Scotty Payne mentioned to me, and I think that's pretty remarkable because he went through some struggles and I know you know him well. Yeah, tell me about what, what started that, because I think, you know, when you went through, obviously you're, you're flying by the seat of your pants. And now there's a lot of things that people can go through to prepare themselves. What are some of the other things that you've contributed? [01:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, in the beginning there was no, no unit or no help for undercovers. You know, you're basically on your own. So when I, when I came out, I went to, I got assigned to Quantico in the, in the undercover unit. And first of all was with. Stagehand and then the Safeguard Unit. And basically what. The Safeguard Unit, we set up a plan for undercovers to be psychologically tested. Before you went undercover, before you even went into an undercover school, we set up a school, a two week school, which is pretty grueling. It's a straight two weeks, no days off, no nights off. But prior to get into that, you would have, you had to take psychological testing and then you had to take a be interviewed, oral interview with experienced undercovers. And once you got in it, you, if you were the undercover, you had a, A, an outlet to talk to somebody without going through normal channels. In other words, you would just call the Safeguard Unit and talk to somebody. [01:05:11] Speaker B: Were they, were they also the experienced undercovers or were they actual psychologists or. [01:05:16] Speaker A: They were experienced undercovers. My partner, when the two of us were there, he was a psychologist, had a degree in psychology, was also an FBI agent. We were handling so many because we were tested. And then once you're in a program, you get tested every six months. Psychologically tested every six months once you're in the program. [01:05:42] Speaker B: And what are you looking for when you say that? I mean, it's like an MMPI type of test. [01:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:05:47] Speaker B: Okay. [01:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Then we actually started then testing the spy section. You know, the guys at guys and gals that were in the CIA. No, Intelligence Division. Intelligence unit of the FBI. We started testing them. So it just got too big for the two of us. So I was able to, through the current director at the time, who was Louis Free, we got safeguarded to an actual unit where they were able to bring in more people. And now we also started Looking out for the families of the undercovers. The undercovers. That's a great idea. Yeah. And, and not many departments have that. They don't have the resources to do it right. You know, or the expertise. [01:06:50] Speaker B: I mean, having somebody like you heading that off is invaluable. [01:06:54] Speaker A: So anybody that, that, that goes into a. I think it's a group one undercover operation. You have to, you have to be certified. Even if you're a police officer working for the FBI, they have to go, they have to go through the school too. [01:07:11] Speaker B: Even the tfo. Even if you're a tfo. [01:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah, if they're, if, if they're in a group one operation. Yeah, yeah, fascinating. Which is good because the, the, the training is, you know, the, the two week school is pretty grueling. You got guys. And when I say guys, I'm talking about guys and gals. Of course, some of them will drop out on their own after, you know, after a couple days. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's how, you know, because it's, it's 24 7. And then eventually as, as the two weeks roll on, you wash people out. [01:07:50] Speaker B: Purposefully or just, it's just attrition. [01:07:54] Speaker A: It's just, you know, that they don't do good, they don't do good on the, on the scenarios and stuff. [01:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [01:08:00] Speaker A: So, you know, when they're graded on every scenario, so would you have appreciated. [01:08:06] Speaker B: That or would you have, would that have gotten on your nerve to be made to go through that when you were starting? [01:08:10] Speaker A: Oh, I would have went through it if, you know, but we didn't have it. So. [01:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just curious if he, you know, because I know it's, you know, you kind of make your own path. It's. [01:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, if, I mean, if I was in the, you know, if they had it when I was there, I would have, you know, hey, if you want to work undercover, you got to go by the rules, you know, so you might, you know, you might start with 25 in a class and maybe end up with, you know, I don't know, 12, 13. [01:08:41] Speaker B: And then of those, how many do you think are actually going to do any significant time undercover? I don't mean, I don't mean do well necessarily at their jobs, but do anything significant in time. Time. [01:08:52] Speaker A: Well, when I was in, some of them never did anything. They never got called on to do any undercover, but they were certified. You know, they, and then, you know, it's like anything else. When you're successful, they beat you to, you know, Like a running mule, you know? [01:09:11] Speaker B: Yeah. You're great at your job and you don't say no, so why would I call anyone else, Right? [01:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. You know, if it, if it's not broke, don't fix it. Right. Yeah. Some guys and gals, you know, they work, worked continuously and some work, you know, here, there, but you know, it is what it is. [01:09:36] Speaker B: So I'm kind of curious. I'm not like a, you know, we're absolutely not like a current events channel or anything, but I, I am curious about your thoughts on the NBA gambling scandal and stuff like that. There's a lot of people that have a lot of different opinions about this and call it a gambling addiction issue and all that kind of stuff. But the MOP deals with gambling in a completely different way. And I was wondering if you had a take on any of that stuff that's been going on. [01:10:05] Speaker A: Well, you know, I always, I always told law enforcement, especially the FBI, gambling is a bigger, big money maker for the mob because everybody can be a bookmaker. When I was in, it was where they made, they made most of their money. And it's the same thing today. It's the same thing today. I used to give talks to sports teams with Michael. Francesca, you know, Michael is right. [01:10:37] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, of course. [01:10:38] Speaker A: And on gambling, you know, how do you get roped into getting involved with the mob? Because look, they're always looking, they're always looking to make money. They're always looking for weaknesses. You know, I think that, I mean, my own opinion, I, I, you know, I don't have any inside information, but I gotta believe it's a bigger invest, it's a bigger investigation than what is led on. I mean, you know. [01:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:08] Speaker A: Growing up in the neighborhood, you know, everybody used to bet on the numbers, you know, I mean, and that's just the way people are, you know, especially from the neighborhood. And if you're, look there, you don't think there's high stake poker games going on all over the, all over, everywhere. [01:11:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:28] Speaker A: But not many of them are raped because they're run by the mob. And look, the mobs get. The mob is always looking for an advantage. They're always looking for an advantage. [01:11:43] Speaker B: Right. And I understand that a lot of it comes by, unlike going to a bookie or playing fair and square, you know, poker, they'll front you some money so that you can gamble, knowing that down the line, if you get in trouble, you have influence that they could leverage. Does that sound accurate? [01:12:04] Speaker A: That's exactly right. That's exactly. Right. You know, that's the. [01:12:08] Speaker B: That's the main key that's missing. I mean, there's nobody else loaning you the money to lose. [01:12:12] Speaker A: No. And look, who. Who are they going after to play these games? They're not going after the guy that lives in the shack down the street. [01:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. [01:12:26] Speaker A: So, you know, I don't think any more needs to be said. They're going to. After people that. That once they lose their money, they'll be in a position to help them, you know? And that's the way the mob operates, you know? Yeah, that's the way they operate. [01:12:44] Speaker B: Did you ever have any experience. This is like, really out of left field, but did you ever an experience since you were working the New York mob over in the Pocono resorts or anything? Because all those cats seem to vacation out there all the time. Or Atlantic City, even? [01:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah, no, my guys. My guys kind of stayed in New York area, a little litley, Brooklyn. The guys I hung around with, we went to Miami a lot. [01:13:12] Speaker B: Florida. Yeah. [01:13:14] Speaker A: They had contacts. And in a couple of hotels that, you know, we were able to go in on the arm, you know, stay on the arm at these hotels. [01:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:25] Speaker A: Because they knew either the managers or. Or whoever. No, we. We never went to Atlantic City. Most of it was. Most of it would go to Miami. Yeah. [01:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that still makes sense, too. Yeah, I think. I mean, obviously, tons of them went down there, too. And I know, you know, the guy that connected us, I think initially, Jimmy Siano, was. [01:13:48] Speaker A: Jimmy. [01:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah, Jimmy was there. [01:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I worked with Jimmy in. In Dallas. Yeah. [01:13:56] Speaker B: Oh, really? [01:13:57] Speaker A: Okay. [01:13:57] Speaker B: I know he did a lot of his stuff in Florida, too, but not necessarily mob. Not mob stuff necessarily, but I guess lastly, is there anything. I mean, you're a young guy. What you up to now? What do you have? Any new goals, new books, new projects? Do anything coming out that you want to talk about? [01:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm in a process of writing a book on a Bonanno family. Doing that now, and I got a project about a. A gentleman that. I know that. That grew up with Tourette's syndrome. You know what Tourette's is? [01:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:30] Speaker A: A good friend of mine, Leo Rossi, wrote the script. So we're, you know, we're finishing up with the script and hopefully get that into some type of production. But other than. Other than the book that I'm doing on the. On the Bonanos, not much in a. Not much in a movie industry right now. Except that the script on. [01:14:57] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that sounds like a noble What, That. What kind of story is that? [01:15:01] Speaker A: It's a personal. But his life growing up and dealing with it, you know, and people not really knowing what, you know, whitey outburst into his adulthood and how he became a successful businessman and controlled it, you know, it's. It's a. It's a feel good. A feel good story. Yeah. [01:15:24] Speaker B: Success story. [01:15:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's just. Very successful businessman. Right. So, you know, if anybody wants to buy Donnie Bosco merch, go to the real Donnie Brasco. There's some merch on there. [01:15:38] Speaker B: Yes, sir. I will, I will. I will definitely push that. And if you, if you have any projects, I'm just letting you know. You know, it'd be an honor for me to. To help you push anything you have. If you have a new project, just shoot me an email or, or text or whatever you want to do or have a conversation. It's either. I'm all good, you know, I don't have to just text. I'm old too. [01:15:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I like to talk, too, but. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:04] Speaker B: You leveraging any of your old contacts? I mean, you've had a successful movie out about your life, obviously, that most people know about. Do you still keep in contact with those guys or have. Is that who you're leveraging in order. [01:16:15] Speaker A: To push this new project forward with this one, though? [01:16:19] Speaker B: Okay. [01:16:20] Speaker A: I still keep in contact with, With Johnny Depp. Very, very close to him. In fact, in January, end of January, he came and spent two days with us in New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:38] Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah. [01:16:39] Speaker A: Yeah. He actually came to see my wife. She wasn't doing too good. She was on. In. On a sick bed. [01:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:47] Speaker A: So he came and spent two days with us. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:54] Speaker B: Well, that's beautiful. And that's, you know, that's. That's got to be a genuine relationship. He obviously had to get. No. You. And. [01:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Knowing you and then understanding how powerful and obviously tolerant your wife was too, I can see why he would want to spend some time with her and support. [01:17:10] Speaker A: Yeah, He. He always stated, we've always stayed in touch through these all these years. He's. He's always, always inquired about her. She. Unfortunately, she spent 22 years fighting cancer, and he always wanted to know what he could. I mean, I love that guy. He always wanted to know what he could do. Anything he can do. Don't hesitate. And then in January, he came and spent two days with her, and then she passed away in March, so. Yeah. [01:17:50] Speaker B: Well, that's beautiful. And I'm, you know, I'm sorry for your loss, too. I know the first time we. We spoke, I think, was probably a year ago. [01:17:59] Speaker A: Ish. [01:18:00] Speaker B: And so. I know. [01:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:02] Speaker B: Starting to have issues. Yeah. [01:18:04] Speaker A: Yeah. She was going downhill, so that's why we couldn't get on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:18:08] Speaker B: Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm. [01:18:10] Speaker A: Well, thank you. [01:18:11] Speaker B: I'm. I'm grateful you got to spend the time that you did with her, and I'm sure she was grateful for you because you seem like the. A really cool guy. And. And it's. It's good to know people like you who have such a great success story that they could be an. If they wanted to. But. But you're a. You're a sweet guy, and I really appreciate you burning time and putting up with my inept technical abilities and all that kind of stuff. [01:18:36] Speaker A: Hey, look, I'm the least technical guy there is. I mean, I can turn a computer on and I can get Netflix and Amazon and read my emails. That's about it. [01:18:49] Speaker B: Well, me too. I'm. I'm grateful for your time and. And I'll probably. I'll probably. I'll probably connect with you on the side, too. I got a couple things I'd like to send out to you, so. [01:18:59] Speaker A: Okay, good. [01:19:00] Speaker B: Thank you so much, my brother. You have a wonderful rest of your day. [01:19:03] Speaker A: All right. Be careful. [01:19:05] Speaker C: What's it take? [01:19:06] Speaker B: What you gonna do what you gotta. [01:19:09] Speaker C: Do Success around the sandbox the second grade rules A confident fake to make you do make you do what they want when they won't be the fool. [01:19:26] Speaker B: A diplomatic base is the one to. [01:19:29] Speaker C: See it through don't let those bigots take you off your game or just let them know Sit here in the front seat, baby, ain't that sweet? Take a little honey from the money be but don't pay the pool. [01:19:47] Speaker A: An. [01:19:48] Speaker C: Hypolitical magical potion A missing piece at the end of the game A slow roll See the truth in soul motion Never found in 60 frames like 5 riding motion the truth lies between blurry lines if you're gonna call up me.