Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This was a kidnap for ransom. Take somebody by force, bury them in the ground. Their lives are at risk. If something doesn't work out, you may not get to this person.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Right. We got word that Christ had taken a boat and gone around the keys. So a bunch of agents drove down to Florida to see if they could intercept that well, by that time, he was on the boat already. And that's why I was flown down to Ponta Gorda. When they got off the island, I was sent on the island, another agent, and we went on with deputies, thank goodness, because I didn't know much about that area. And we got on these wind boats. We were going along the coast of the island and we saw some footsteps, and so we got out of the boat. We each went different ways. And I was able to get him. He was under a mangrove tree and got him. And got him in the water and dragged him along. Got him in the boat.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: But you actually put the cuffs on this cat?
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: So you found him and was he cooperative when you ran into him?
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, he was, because he was hurting. He jumped the fence and he ripped a scrotum, and he wasn't in very good shape.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Nothing like some seawater.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: To heal that up.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: My buddy Jeffrey Whitmire introduced me to this cat, told me he was 90 years old, and when I met him, I didn't believe him. But this gentleman is indeed 90 years old, and with every new day, makes another positive impact on other people's lives. He's the perfect fit for the tcast.
This cat was an FBI agent during the Hoover era, where the FBI was just a budding organization, leveraging gumshoe tactics and growing into what it is now. Piece by piece, he has some fascinating stories to tell about the experiences that he had and the limited amount of resource that they had during the time that he worked. He then left and went into corporate security, and then has since now taken on the task of educating high school aged kids on criminal justice, leveraging his vast amount of experience and contacts to teach them real law enforcement. In an era where law enforcement is a difficult topic to tackle with the public sentiment the way it is, this guy is really a fantastic person. It was an honor to have met him. And I think you're going to really enjoy meeting Mister Jim Siano on the tcast.
When you say you read, what kind of books do you normally read? And do you read consistently? You're always working on a book?
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Not always, but pretty much. I like to read some biographies, military and that kind of thing.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Were you in the military at any point?
[00:02:55] Speaker B: I was in the Marine Corps.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Marine Corps. What years were those?
[00:02:58] Speaker B: Well, when I got out of college and went through the OCS program. And that was back in 1954.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: 56. Yeah.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: So you missed. You missed the in between. Yeah, in between. Exactly. But how did that fare? Was it people on edge?
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Well, I was in Okinawa, and so it was more just training.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: And then what inspired you to go into the military? Where were you? Where were you when this happened?
[00:03:31] Speaker B: I was in college and they had the ROTC, and I was playing ball, hurt my knee, and I didn't want to go any ROTC. In my senior year, the Marine Corps came out with a program called Plc platoon leaders Corps. And I went through that program and.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Then through ocs, even with the gimp knee. That was better.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Well, it was better. Okay.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: And playing ball, what. What kind of ball did you play?
[00:03:57] Speaker B: Well, when I was young, I was interested in all the sports. I played a little basketball later, though.
[00:04:02] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: And hence, in later years, you were coaching, too.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: Right. After I got out of the Marine Corps, I was teaching and coaching in Mahwah, New Jersey, and I was assistant basketball, assistant football and head basketball coach, and taught history.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: That's interesting. And that's. And what put you in New Jersey at.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: That's where I grew up.
[00:04:29] Speaker A: Okay, so that was your hometown, right?
[00:04:31] Speaker B: I grew up in New Jersey.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: And then you went through the Marine Corps and then went back to Jersey following the Marine Corps?
[00:04:37] Speaker B: After I got out of the Marine Corps, I went back to New Jersey. Yeah. And then I started teaching and coaching.
[00:04:42] Speaker A: Okay, well, so was a teaching degree that you get?
[00:04:46] Speaker B: No, I got a degree in sociology, and then I had to go in the evening and get my teacher certificate.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: All right. So was that your original goal in terms of your career?
[00:04:58] Speaker B: My dad. My dad was a teacher and a football coach. He played for the Redskins. And so I guess I had this sports background in my. In my blood.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: And. But I didn't think this was going to be my life career. And I went on for a graduate degree, and I met an FBI agent and a professor doing my graduate work. And I got very interested once I talked to the agent and understood what the FBI was about, understood the goals, and I thought that would be a good fit for me. Cause I really wanted to at that time. I was, you know, at the period I was feeling I wanted to make a difference in something.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: And I just felt the FBI was something I wanted to get into.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: And that wasn't something that was widely known about at the time, right?
[00:05:49] Speaker B: No, not really. No.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: So how did they recruit you? What do you think drew them to trying to draw?
[00:05:55] Speaker B: I don't know. I met this agent, and he started talking to me, and he asked me to meet with this other agent who's a recruiter, and that started the ball rolling.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: And then I went to New York office and things took place, and then I took their test and everything, and it took about. With the background. It's very, very deep and took about eight months before my background was done, and then I got the approval.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: So is the background similar these days? I don't know how much you keep up with a lot of that.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah, they do. They do a thorough background.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I know there's a lot of agencies where they seem to be dropping off in lieu of trying to keep the staffing up, and I don't think the FBI is necessarily taking that route.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: I don't think so. I'm not familiar with their back, with their background. Only thing is, one of the students that I had in my criminal justice class that I'm teaching now is now an FBI agent in Minneapolis. And I know that he went through a pretty thorough background, and he also was a.
He worked in the support unit, which, when I was in the FBI, we didn't have. The support unit is, for example, he would do surveillance for ages on cases that they had. If I had a case that needed surveillance, I did the surveillance. So it's a lot different now. Same with the crime scene investigation. They have to support people who work in that area.
Right. They specialize in those areas, and it helps the agents work on the case.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And they have the police department guys that are assigned there to help assist in the case filing and all that kind of stuff as well.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: That's. So how long had the FBI even existed when they recruited you? You know.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
I gotta take off my ring. It's in there.
I forget now. You know, at one time. I know it's back in the 18 hundreds or something.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: No one, I think.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Okay. And so when you came in, though, that was a. A hoover directed FBI.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: And it was coming into prominence, I would say, during that era, much so.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: It was even before that, you know, with Dillinger and all those people. The FBI was growing strong at that time. And then during the bootlegging period, and then, of course, during the time the mafia became very prevalent in New York, Chicago, Florida. Yeah.
There was a lot of interest in that area.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: And did you get to work on any of those mafioso type cases or whatever? I know you have some fairly famous cases that you worked on.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I didn't. I was in. I was never, never worked in a city where they had a strong mafia presence.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: Even in Florida they didn't. And I was.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Florida.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Okay. North Florida.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah. South Florida is where they had the.
The bulk of it.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: What do you think your forte was? Everybody has their thing. Some go in as cops, some go in as accountants, some go as whatever. Where did you think you.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: One thing about the bureau is they don't look for any specific background. They look for a wide variety. For example, if a person's good in an area of computer, well, cybercrime is very big, and so they'll try to recruit those people accounting for forensic accounting. So the bureau want. That's why they don't just go for one area like a police officer. They'll go like my background was in teaching. They'll have somebody who might have been a banker, somebody who was an accountant. So they have a wide variety of personnel that become agents. Yeah, because there's a wide variety. I mean, the FBI, where a DEA, for example, has one jurisdiction, narcotics, the FBI has like, over 220 jurisdictions.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: I. That they cover, and that's to kind.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Of mirror the jurisdictions of the criminal.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: So, I mean, they need a wide background of people to look in those cases, for sure. Yeah.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: So. And then how long was the academy back then?
[00:09:50] Speaker B: When I went through, I think it was about three months. And I think it's extended now. I don't know exact time now.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, most municipal police.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah, they've extended six, seven months.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: I'll bet that's at least that.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: And they cover a little bit more than what we had at the time I went through. They didn't have Hogan's village. They had Hogan's alley. Right now they have a mock village where agents have scenarios where they go out as a team and one as a leader. And they'll have, for example, a hotel in that village. They'll have a bank that's been robbed five times a day for the last few years, and they'll have different stores. And, for example, in the hotel, they might have a hostage situation on the second floor. Well, the agents have to. The agents that work in this scenario have to plan how they're going to handle that situation and integrated by the supervisors and back to support.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Then when you're talking about something like that, did you have tactical support back then?
Did you have, like, a SWAT unit type thing within the question?
[00:10:53] Speaker B: No, because one of the cases I had, I went in alone and with an armed person. And nowadays, there would be a SWAT team doing it. And of course, the FBI has also this HRT unit, which is the Hoscu rescue unit, which travels around. So it's very sophisticated, very well trained, and no other group that matches it.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah, very niche now in terms of the training. So I'm super curious. I mean, I've been through the municipal department, a police department a fair size of 1516, 1700 people.
And I watched the culture change and the tactics change through the nineties and the aughts.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: But I can't imagine the significant change that you saw back when. When you started, if I'm not mistaken, it must have been a son of a gun to just get a phone tap to work. I mean, that's. That was a. That was a primitive process back then.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: Right. Back in 1968, when I came in to, it was much different. Now, you're right. With the phone taps, of course, you need the subpoena signed and everything else.
And we had to go to the judge and everything. But more than that, the area of crime scene has changed. For example, chemistry and biology, AI, all that nowadays has brought the crime scene investigation up into a whole new level. For example, when I was in, they didn't have DNA. And, uh, now, well, it came in as toward the end of the. My time in the FBI toward the later eighties.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:12:36] Speaker B: And, um, right now, for example, they have the innocence program, where over 200 people have been exonerated based on DNA, where they were charged and convicted based on. Most of them were based on eyewitness misidentification.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Right?
[00:12:52] Speaker B: So that's a big step. The DNA, the AI, well, basically, they can. They can identify high crime areas. Now, Yusuf, which is a very big help to the police departments. So this is, to me, a big change. And it's also, as far as the DNA, it really, really reduced the number of false convictions.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: Right. Because then I think that was a big misnomer, even through my time. And they were leveraging eyewitness testimony. They still do, even. And a lot of.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you'll always have that. I mean, there's always going to be some problem with the trial, and then there'll be a problem and someone will be exonerated. But the DNA was really, really the thing that changed a lot in the CSI.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: And then you have other tech that has taken over, too, where it's easier to go find cameras, because cameras are everywhere.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: You've got facial recognition, facial recognition, social media. So you go in and you can be online the whole time and accomplish the better part of a full investigation. These days, not in a literal sense, but majority of it, versus the old gumshoe style. Do you feel like there's. It's all work and it's all difficult?
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: So I'm not even trying to. To pander one way or the other, but it seems like having the skills set that you did that you were forced to accrue by just going and knocking on doors, doing surveillance on your own, trying to figure out how to manipulate somebody to get them to tell you something is a super valuable skill that I think is becoming lost. Do you feel like that's the case at all with the new tech?
[00:14:40] Speaker B: I don't know. I think the current agents are trained more highly in areas such as interrogations, interviews, and also now with the behavioral science unit, doing.
When they go out and do their profiling, that helps police departments that have high profile murder cases, for example, serial killers. And the profilers will look at that case, and they'll come up with some kind of a conclusion to help the police department take an avenue that they can approach to solve the case.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's incredible that. I mean, everybody relies on the FBI statistics.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Well, you know, that's true. But also, I know when I was in the FBI, there were many cases I had, and plus, at one time, I was a supervisor of the president's task force on organized crime and drugs, and I had a group of police officers from various jurisdictions with the agents on our task force, and they were tremendous assistance to these cases that we had.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: How did that work? What was the purpose in the.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Well, the purpose was to be able to utilize local jurisdiction and have them more or less work under the federal law guidelines. And they were, like, deputized under the federal guidelines. They. If you were an Irving PD, you could work in Dallas, and Dallas could work in Irving, and we had police officers in all these jurisdictions, and it went on for a few years, and then they disbanded it, and it was.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Called a presidential something.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: It was the president's task force on organized crime and drugs, and I ran out, supervised that.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: Okay, so you had. It was a TFO program, essentially, the task force officers from the different.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Okay. Which is. So that's been going on for some time, or that happened later in your career?
[00:16:33] Speaker B: It had been going on for about four years, and then they disbanded it in different offices and called them different things.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: I mean, I know.
[00:16:42] Speaker B: They just. They just disbanded it, really? Yeah. And I guess it's just the. At the time, they felt that the FBI had more things to do than have a task force, and that was in the office I was in, in Dallas.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: Right. Okay. Yeah. And I know the, you know, I actually served as a TFO from Fort Worth police. I was assigned to the gang and organized crime task force.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: And I know they have terrorist task force, too, where they have different specific.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: And they still have those now because the bureau changes their priorities. And now your priorities in the bureau are different than they were when I was in. Now the priorities are mostly terrorism. So you'll have those terrorist task forces.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: So do you think there was a lot of the same type of crime happening, but it was just less known or easier to get away with, or do you think I. Crime in general has changed.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Crime in general is the same. Murders, murder, fraud is fraud. But with the computer, you have a different level of crime. With cybercrime, for example. We didn't have that when I was in. Didn't even know what the computer was.
You know, I didn't know how to work a computer. But nowadays it's so sophisticated that they have agents that specialize in that area. And in the police force, they have people who specialize in cybercrime also.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's supposed to be, I mean, the FBI is the elite. I mean, people go and look forward to doing a, you know, the police go and train in the right, and.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: We have what we, I'm sure you're aware of at the national Academy, where they select police officers from all around the world that come into the academy. I spent a year up there to teaching at the academy, and it was a wonderful experience because there are officers from around the world, high level, you know, officers, and they came in for this training, and it was very, I mean, officers really strive to get to the national Academy, many of them.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: That's a big.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: I talked to some officers, matter of fact, a current chief here in the area, I talked to him, and he was through the national academy. He said when he retires, that's going to be one of the highlights of his career because it was so impactive to him.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing. And you're a part of that trajectory. That's a pretty significant time, I think, that you lived through to be able to experience the. The crude manner in which you had to investigate things. Right.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: It was a little bit crude when you look at today's technology.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: Yeah. But I think it's again, I think it's super valuable to have those innate skills. I mean, that sometimes you're. You're looking at a case or somebody's talking to you about what to do, and you're just thinking, have you. Have you gone to talk to these people? And it hasn't been done. It's like, well, why don't you get in the car and go drive and ask the person, you know, what they saw or if they know someone else. And a lot of times, you know, those obvious tactics from the past, escape folks. Cause they're just trying to find something online. I don't know if you're willing to talk about it, but obviously, and I'll tell you, I experienced a pretty significant leap between the mid nineties and the mid aughts, between how policing was done. When I came on as a rookie, you had people that were accountable and doing things right. And then you go to a midnight shift off in one of the worst areas, and you're still seeing the old school justice being administered and. And then the. The event of the cameras and the body cams and all that stuff. As I was gone before, all the body cams and all that stuff. But the level of accountability is super high.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: I wonder what your thoughts are on how the street justice used to take place or if you witnessed any, or if you, you know, had to deal with any of that kind of stuff, or you saw it as a rookie and how it's changed and is it better now?
[00:20:29] Speaker B: What do you mean, a street justice?
[00:20:31] Speaker A: I just mean, you know, guys that. I mean, guys used to, you know, get a beaten before they'd go to jail because they made them run or whatever.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: You know, my whole career in the bureau, I've never seen that with the agents when they make an arrest. I've never seen that.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: That's great.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: I'm not saying it hadn't happened. It's just that I've been in Jacksonville, Florida. Alexander, Virginia. I was at Quantico headquarters and in Dallas. And when I got out of headquarters, I was sent to Dallas as a supervisor. In all those areas that we've had, I've never seen that type of activity take place.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Even on a milder scale. I know guys. I would come in and hear stories about guys that would find trespassers, that are the usuals. You know, they have a beat, and they'd say, and I'm told this is the fifth time. And then they, you know, drive them to the next county and drop them off or something, you know, it's old school. It's not a fair way to do things, but it's the way things used to be.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: And it's a lot different because when you're on the street, you're wearing a uniform and you're marked, and it's very difficult for a police officer because he's on the street every day. He sees the same thing every day. And probably that would happen in our situation. We're not in that kind of ties, jackets and we're not marked, and we run our cases and we don't deal with that activity. That would call for the, that's why.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: You have a tfo thing of.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Well, that's great. And again, it's, it's the perception, too, that kind of, and that's the reputation that, that follows you because it was set up as to be an elite law enforcement entity, you know, that carried themselves in a different manner. So I'm also curious about, you know, the, you know, Hoover was loved or hated and, and there were some good and some bad, and I can't say I was old enough to appreciate any of that. But I'm curious as to your thoughts, having worked on.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: To me, he was the best director of the FBI that I served under. Nicer served under a few, and in my estimation, he was the best. The agents knew exactly what was required of them.
And of course, the old standard saying, don't embarrass the bureau was always in the back of your mind, and you made sure you did things right. I'm not saying that's not true today. I'm just saying that the level of politics that the bureau have gotten into lately has changed the upper echelon.
I know many agents and very close to some agents currently in the bureau, and they do an outstanding job on the street. They do a great job.
[00:23:15] Speaker A: And without being critical, obviously, it just is what it is. But how do you think the politicization has come to be in the FBI? Well, I don't think you're the only one I've spoken to that also feels that way. But it's not a, it's not a condemnation of the agents that are working. It does, doesn't mean that they're not.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: As I said, it's the higher echelon. And in my estimation, it all started with Comey and Clinton and I, and I think that was downfall on the upper echelon. And as I said before, I know from my experience and the experience that I've had with agents that are currently in the bureau, it hasn't affected the street agents at all. They do their job and they do an outstanding job.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Do they get a lot of flack like the law enforcement of the day and this, and this particular generation where law enforcement is, it's a lot harder to find good cops and agents because a lot of people are dissuaded by public sentiment. Do you see that happening?
[00:24:16] Speaker B: You know, I'm dealing with young people every day at school, you know, juniors and seniors, and I don't see that like the agent that's now in Minneapolis. He came up to me and he said, coach, I'd like to get in the FBI. And he was in my class and I told him, I said, okay, cole, you're going to his grades up a little bit. And he did. And he ended up at Glenn College. And then he went to Texas A and M, graduated four point average, and came out, went through the academy. After his training at the FBI, he worked there for a while in a support position and went through the academy. He's thrilled. I mean, he's absolutely thrilled that he was, took that path. And I hear that from many young people that I talk to. I've got a young lady who graduated four years ago. She's doing her, she needs two years of work experience and she wants to go to the academy. And she was in my class. I see a lot of enthusiasm. I don't think the remarks that are coming through about, as I said before, on a higher level really are affecting the youth.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Okay. And you're in. Is that an elective course too? Yes, which is, again, fantastic because you can encourage and right and educate at the same time people that have that interest as opposed to people that might have an interest getting that extinguished by public sentiment or people talking out.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: I think so.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Well, that, that means a lot, too. You're making your impact still. That's the day, right?
[00:25:49] Speaker B: I feel that way.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Well, absolutely. We'll talk about what is your, what is your highlight or couple highlights of your FBI career.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: You mean some cases could be cases.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Or an experience or anything.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: I had a lot of good experiences because I served with a lot of great guys and still keep in touch with a number of them. And to me, that camaraderie was lasting and it was to me, a great experience. Yeah, I had some interesting cases.
Of course, they go back a ways with, with the kidnapping of Barbara Mackle. I don't know if you've heard about.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: That was a fascinating.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: I mean, in movie worthy type case.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah. They made a book of that. Okay.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: They did?
[00:26:43] Speaker B: Yeah, they did. 48 hours till dawn, I think.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So you're talking about somebody that was kidnapped, buried under the surface of the ground in a box with a breathing hole, essentially, and a ransom held, which is just such an old school scenario. I love it, though. It's so fascinating.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Her father, Mister Mackle, built most of the west coast of Florida, southwest coast of Florida. Was a developer.
And she was in college at Emory College. And it was during the holidays, Christmas holidays, she had the flu. And her mother picked her up to bring her home for the vacation. And on the way home, just after leaving the college, she. She. They checked her to a motel. She wasn't feeling well. The girl, barber and individuals, Ruth Ann Shire and Chris.
The guy's name was Chris. Broke into the hotel and sedated the mother and Barbara, and took Barbara and put her in this box in California, I mean, in Alabama, and put her in the ground. It didn't have breathing tube. And we got the call. And I was in Jacksonville at the time. And our agent, a special agent in charge, Mister Gebhardt, who was a really good leader, he said, jim, myself and another agent, he said, I want you to get on this plane and go down to Ponta Gorda, Florida, which was on the very south end of Florida. And I'd never been in one of these little planes that flydeh little puddle jumpers. Yeah. So anyway, myself and the other agent got in this plane and we flew down to Ponta Gorda. And I was immediately. It was at night, and the agents that were on the island got off it. And the word was, and I didn't know what was going on on the other end, but agents were looking and actually got Barbara out of the box. And then agents from Alabama, and there were Jacksonville, Tampa and Miami. We got word that Trist had taken a boat and gone around the keys. So a bunch of agents drove down to Florida to see if they could intercept that. Well, by that time, he was on the boat already. And that's why I was flown down to. With other agents from these offices down to Ponta Gorda. When they got off the island, I was sent on the island, another agent, and we went on with deputies. Thank goodness, because I didn't know much about that area.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: And we got on these wind boats. The windboat. And the deputy I was with, we were going along the coast of the island and we saw some footsteps. And so we got out of the boat. We each went different ways. And I was able to get him. He was under a mangrove tree and got him. And got him in the water and dragged him along. Got him in the boat and he was a pretty big guy. And we got on the boat and we got back to the island, back to the mainland, and then they took him away from there.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: How did they end up. I mean, you skipped the interesting part, too, about. And by the way, they found the box and recovered her. Was there some particular tactic that allowed them to figure out where she was?
[00:29:52] Speaker B: See, I wasn't involved in that part of it, but what my understanding was that he left a ransom note, and in the note he had said where she would be.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: So agents went to that area and I found the ground that was disturbed, I guess, and I got her out, but I'm not fully aware because I wasn't at that end of the case.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: But you actually put the cuffs on this cat?
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: You found him and was he cooperative when you ran into him?
[00:30:18] Speaker B: Yeah, he was. Because he was hurting. He jumped the fence and he ripped a scrotum and he wasn't in very good shape.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Nothing like some seawater to heal that up.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:33] Speaker A: Golly.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: And he was sent to prison. And Ruth Anshire was later. She was. These were bright people. She was an aquamarine biologist and he was a med student. And they caught. They got her in Washington, I think, and then he got put in jail and. And that was it.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: So. And I've only heard. So you have to confirm this for me. But he ended up skating some of this, too. Right. This was. This was a kidnap for ransom. Take somebody by force, bury him in the ground. Their lives are at risk. If something doesn't work out, you may not get to this person.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: And he got a. Ten or twelve years. Ten years.
[00:31:12] Speaker B: Got out early. Yeah.
[00:31:13] Speaker A: And got out early.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: And then he ended up getting jailed again for selling drugs.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Maybe compare and contrast the sentencing type guidelines versus then. Or is that an anomaly?
[00:31:25] Speaker B: I'm not fully up to federal guidelines, but I believe right now it without. I believe it's a 20 year sentence. If the person is a heinous crime, if the person is hurt or murdered during the kidnapping, then it's life.
But, you know.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: And that's significantly different. Better than ten, right?
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: That's crazy to think that somebody could do that. And of course, I mean, if he chooses not to take that blessing and run with it, I guess that just goes to show you. But at least nobody had to suffer for his following crimes. But I find that fascinating because obviously they're on. They're always trying to change some of the federal guidelines and keep them fair. But, you know, from a case to case basis, sometimes you, you see those anomalies that stick out. Was that disappointing even? I'm sure you testified in that trial and everything.
[00:32:15] Speaker B: Yeah, no, they didn't have to. I didn't have to testify.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: He pled. Yeah, maybe that was why he got some less years. Interesting. And I know that you're one of those guys, it's just one of those understated badges of honor to where somebody tries to kill you. And I understand you've, you've been in that situation, too. Wherever somebody tried to.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: I was in Alexandria, Virginia, and this was during a period in the seventies when hijacking was becoming a little bit prevalent. And most of the hijackers at that time, you know, wanted to go to Cuba.
[00:32:52] Speaker A: They wanted to go to Cuba because.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: Well, for different reasons, I guess. I don't know. But the one that we had was in Dulles airport, and our agent in charge, special agent in charge, Jack McDermottez, who was outstanding leader. I mean, he was just an outstanding man, leader of men. Everybody wanted to work for him. He was just that type of a man. And he passed away about a month ago. Oh, wow. He was a very outstanding leader. Anyway, we got called and he said, jim, and he got myself another agent, he said, get in the car with me. We're going to the airport.
So we got down to Dulles Airport, and of course, several other agents got down there, went up to the tower, FFA is FAA, and we were waiting for the plane to come in, and he was asking for $100 million. So we knew that something was wrong here.
[00:33:53] Speaker A: That's a lot.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: So as the plane was coming in from Phoenix, he demanded this money. So agents had gotten sea bags and put paper in them and put them on the Runway to try to get the plane down because he said he was going to take it into the White House. So eventually we did get, they did get the plane down, and myself and Jack McDermott, who's the agent in charge, and a few other agents.
I was in the front seat of the car with McDermott and two agents in the back, and we were on the Runway behind the plane. And at that time, those kinds of cases were pretty much directed by headquarters. And I can remember Jack McDermott doing two things. First of all, telling Haft, who was the president of the airlines, said, I'm worried about my plane. And Jack McDermott said, he's worried about the people. You could take your plane and shove it and then the assistant director up at Washington was listening to what was going on. And basically at that time, they were expected to call the shots. And I can remember again, Jack McDermott saying, hell, I'm not letting someone 50 miles away tell me what to do.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not a command post on the side of the Runway somewhere.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: That's the kind of man he was. He took, he took, he took action when it was necessary, and he did it in a smart way. And so, uh, once we got the plane down, we didn't want to get the plane back up again. Right. So we, we, we drove to a point underneath the plane, and, um, I got out of the car, Jack McDermott got out of the car, and the other three agents got out of the car. And, um, we're under the plane, and I was by the doorway, and, um, the, uh, then we heard a shot, and we weren't going to do anything. We don't want to promote anybody getting hurt.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Right.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: I but he had, on the plane, he had a weapon, which was a little Rome 22. And he had a knife, and he had a half a can of gasoline. And at that time, you didn't have Tsa. I mean, you could walk on a plane with anything, which he did.
So once we heard the shot, we knew something had to be done. And Jack, Mister McDermott said, it's a go. So they boosted me up, and I got up on a stairwell there, and.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: I was holding a mobile rolling stair.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: And I was holding on wall. They boosted me up so I could hold on to the door. And as I swung in, he come out with the gun, and he fired and missed. And then when I went to jump him, he put the gun on my stomach and he pulled the trigger, but it misfired, and I took him down, and he got him handcuffed. Did hit him a little bit, but I got him handcuffed, and then we got him off the plane. But in that instance, you know, nowadays, you'd have a SWAT team there handling that, but we didn't have that at that time.
[00:36:51] Speaker A: Well, sure. And there's, I mean, how many people actually train boarding planes anyway? So, still going to be sophisticated.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: So see to your pants. That was a case that was memorable to me. And fortunately, we had a leader like Jack McDermott.
[00:37:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that is fortunate. And it's, and it's a go getter kind of mentality, because I think they, between that, you know, you had the primitive, so to speak. Let's. We gotta go, because we gotta go. Became a little more sophisticated to the point where some agencies were wanting to hold off until you get seven guys to go in and take care of an active shooter, which obviously is not practical either. I think it swung back to the point where you've got to be, you signed up for this, and when you hear stuff like that going on, you just have to go.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Well, the mindset here with was, I know Mister McDermott felt the same thing. The people on board that plane, that was the primary objective, not to have anybody else injured. He shot, he fired, he hit the shot, the captain in the stomach, Captain Dale Hoopie. Fortunately, the bullet went through without touching any vital organs and he was released from the hospital a couple days later. And uh, that was very fortunate for him. Uh, that that's the shot we heard and that's when I jumped in.
[00:38:11] Speaker A: Fabulous. So, and I'm curious, this is sort of an aside, but I've, I've always been, it's always been something that's struck me is if the guy had ended up shooting you.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: And you lived, obviously his sentence would have been significantly less. He may get life anyway, being an agent, but it seems like an attempted murder is, you know, a 1012 year sentence. And had the shot actually been fatal, but they just weren't a good enough shot or whatever. Then there's doing life.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: Right. Well, what they found out, very curious is I was very curious as to why the round didn't go off. And what they found out is when they sent the weapon to headquarters lab, they had it in his pocket. And evidently some fibers got caught up in the mechanism. So when he pulled the trigger the second time, well, he shot the pilot and it went off.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: He shot at me and it missed. So that was two shots. When he fought, when he fired at me, when he put it in my stomach, the hairs and fibers caught up in the trigger mechanism. And it didn't go. The trigger didn't go with enough. The hammer didn't go forward with enough force to ignite the bullet. Wow. That's what they said.
[00:39:20] Speaker A: Wow. And it was, and it wasn't. It was on contact.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Was on my stomach. Yeah.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: And it wasn't one of those guns where contact.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: No.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Prohibited from shooting about.
[00:39:30] Speaker B: It was a poorly made, I guess, little Rome 22.
[00:39:33] Speaker A: Golly. Well, that's a crazy story. So after that, did your attitude or view on life change anymore since that was, was it any more harrowing than some of the other things that you experienced, knowing that you were that close?
[00:39:47] Speaker B: Well, it's the first time I was the only time I was that close. Yeah, but I didn't think about it. I mean, you know, once it was all over, we went through the trial process and everything.
I never thought about it. It just went on with my work from there on, you know, next case, work, the next case.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Gotta admire that. I mean, that's your job and that's fine, but I know there's a lot of, you know, people who, when they really face death, it just changes a lot of their perspective on things.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: I guess I was a little mad.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: And that's a better attitude than scared, right?
[00:40:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I was. I was just feeling fear there.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: A healthy fear.
[00:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah, well, like, you know, you don't think about it when you get villains pumping.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: Right. You know, so there wasn't even on, upon reflecting, though, you didn't say didn't think about. A little bit more conscious of this?
[00:40:38] Speaker B: No, when I said, let's go, I. I didn't think about it. I just went.
[00:40:43] Speaker A: Admired. Admire you for that.
So after you left, then you did some private security work.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: Yes, I did a little private security work where I did work for Mister Perot when he was running for president, and just a little bit of private investigative work. And then I went with the company as their head of security for a while until they disbanded and were bought out by a company in Indianapolis. And that's when I went into teaching. And that was in 2000, maybe 2005, I started teaching.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Okay, so where. What was the. So when they sold that, told you, hey, I'm gonna do something else, but. And you, was it an easy decision at that point? Like, I just wanna.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Well, I had, I had, as I had the background and I went up to Aubrey High School and I met an outstanding individual who was a superintendent, Jim Monaco and James Monaco. And I never forget, he went through the ranks as a teacher, basketball coach, assistant principal, principal, and superintendent. And now there's a school named after him in there.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: Oh, there you go.
[00:41:56] Speaker B: Elementary school. So anyway, I remember meeting him and he's from New York and. And matching accents. Yeah. He's the kind of guy that said, all right, you're hired. If you mess up, I'm firing you straight up front.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: But I got a mustard piece of.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Fact, he's living in Florida now, and I'm having lunch with, I mean, dinner with him Sunday. Oh, he's coming to town. But no, that was my first experience here in Texas teaching. And so we needed, the school needed some electives. So I drew up this course and I sent the course down to, to tea down in Austin for approval as a elective course, and they approved it. And so I've been teaching this course now for about twelve years.
[00:42:43] Speaker A: That's fabulous. And it is a justice course.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: Criminal justice.
[00:42:48] Speaker A: Criminal justice course. And so how much do you go through? Is it, do you model it similarly to an academy type thing or.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: I designed it to cover some of the things we did. We'll start off with, you know, learning about what the local police departments do, what state, what federal departments do. So we cover that area under the law enforcement. And then we get into areas like crime scene and we, we talk about how the crime scenes are. I have them lift fingerprints from different items so they know how to lift a fingerprint. We talk about DNA, how that, how that changed. We talk about the innocence program and we get into civilization and then criminal law. And we talk about criminal law. We spent a lot of time on that. And the court procedures. We talk about that. I had a mock trial with the kids at the end of the year at the Denton county courthouse a few years ago. And we did a mock trial and they filmed it, which the kids did an outstanding job. And then we get in, we end up the course. I talk about serial killers. We talk about, which is very important nowadays, mass murder. And we talk about all these mass murders that are going on, going on. And we discuss the difference between mass murder, spree killing, serial killings. And we go into some of the serial killers and we look at some of the profiling that has been done on the psychological profile on some of these people.
[00:44:12] Speaker A: That's brilliant. That's got to be fascinating for everybody. That's all. Sounds interesting to me. Some of it not, but yeah, I.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: Enjoy it a lot of, as a matter of fact, they came in and channel five came in near the end of school and videoed my class.
I guess it was because they said, I'm 90 years old and they wanted to see an old guy teach 90 years young, please.
It worked out pretty good. The kids did a good job.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: That's fascinating. I love that. And you already have mentioned some success stories that have come from that.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: And then other people are probably just interested in, learn to appreciate.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: There's a number of my students that are in Denton county and Plano. I got like three or four in the Plano police department, several in Denton county. So it's not because of me. I have an interest in it, but then sometimes I can help open the door a little bit.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: Well, that's, I mean, that's the all important thing though, at that transitional age. They're at that high school, pivotal age.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: Where making a decision like that, especially with the FBI, you have to have a real calling to go into that because it takes a lot. I mean, after college, you still have to have that couple of years of work experience then through the academy. How many months that is more than three now. And then once you don't know where, you're going to get assigned. Like, the agent who was my student, he lived in Arbery area. Now he's in Minneapolis.
[00:45:41] Speaker A: Right. You get scooted wherever they scoot you.
[00:45:43] Speaker B: He's gone now. He's hoping to get back, maybe to Oklahoma or somewhere close. But these are the kinds of things that are difficult, and they have to look at those, and it takes a certain person and a calling to do that.
[00:45:56] Speaker A: Yeah. As it does being a teacher. But I also heard you're a coach. You mentioned they call you coach, so.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I was an assistant coach in Aubrey.
I did it for up until the last couple of years, and the late night getting home was getting to me and getting up in the morning, so I just. I stopped the coaching, but I've coached now for over 24 years.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: Good lord. So you were out on the court and running around?
[00:46:23] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:24] Speaker A: Well, that's. That's incredible. I've. I'm sitting here with two knee replacements.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: I got one that I had done work on.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: And that wasn't what made you quit, though. It was just the late hours.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Okay. Just making sure we're clear on that.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: No, the leg is good for the.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: Students or aspiring law enforcement folks.
What would you tell the ones that don't have an opportunity to experience something like your course? What type of advice would you give them?
[00:46:54] Speaker B: Well, first of all, that's a good question, because, first of all, the students that are interested, let's say, in the FBI, the ones that had come to me, they say, coach, what should I major in in college? Should I major in criminal justice? Well, my answer to them is major in whatever subject you're good at to get good grades. The FBI doesn't care if you have criminal justice in your background. As I said before, they take a wide variety of backgrounds. So I always tell them, study and major in what you're good in. You might minor in criminal justice to further it, but just major in something that you're good at. And as far as the students that aren't, college isn't for everybody, and we've got a fantastic FFA program there where kids get into welding, and it's a terrific program they have over at Arbery High school. And many kids get into that program and they get into a wide variety of fields in construction, welding, and even in the area of the animals and farming. So there's a lot of areas nowadays that they have at the school that when I went to school, we didn't have me either.
And so some kids are very, very good at with mechanics and they'll get into that field. So I tell them, whatever, whatever your passion is, that's what's to important. You have to have a passion for what you're doing. And if it isn't there, then look for it.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And then at that age, it's difficult because there's, you know, they, they grow more frustrated and anxious at that pivotal time, which is reasonable at 18 to not know your life trajectory. I mean, look at how many. You've got three or four different careers.
[00:48:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: You've navigated and that's okay. Right. So that, that's, that's fantastic advice, especially with the degree, since they require a degree, as do the other federal entities, I believe.
[00:48:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:48:53] Speaker A: So that's an important aspect because, you know, they hire all around, but they would like to see you're disciplined enough to get good.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: Another aspect in there is when I have the federal, during the local, I bring in like the chief of police and some officers that I know, I'll bring in a SWAT team and I'll talk about it. So they'll see all this. The SWAT team came in from little Elm last year, and they'll come in and talk to the kids, bring all their toys and everything and show them all this. Then during the federal agency, I'll bring in FBI agent, ATF agent, DEA agent. And so they'll talk to these people. And I had one girl that was so interested. We had a young lady agent from ATF come in and she did an outstanding job. And one of my girls, one of my students, female, has kept up with her. She gave her her card and she was very interested in Atsdez. So, you know, having these people open up areas that they didn't think about sometimes helps them out.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: And what about, you know, obviously the breadth of people that we have in, particularly the FBI, and we need the diversity in police departments as well. How do we get from people who don't have an opportunity to just go to college, for instance? Is there some kind of a scholarship program or something for disadvantaged kids that aspire to be in law enforcement?
[00:50:15] Speaker B: All kinds of scholarships. That's, we have a good guidance department that works with these kids and gives them all the areas that they can go into as far as getting scholarships through different. Through the FFA program, for example, there's scholarships. Do other programs in the school, they have scholarships. If you get a student that's an outstanding student, but from maybe a difficult background, they'll help to look for these scholarships for these students. So there is always going to be a way, if the student is really anxious to go and has the passion.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: To do it, that's important.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: You can get the help.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: Being 90 and not looking a day, I mean, I would have said 67, 70, 72.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: Okay, you're being gracious.
[00:51:01] Speaker A: How do you stay healthy? Because you also have energy and, you know, you have all your facilities. You don't seem to lack any memory. So what do you do to stay healthy?
[00:51:12] Speaker B: Well, I still work out a little bit.
That's important to me.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: What does that consist of?
What is your workout consistent?
[00:51:22] Speaker B: I go to a club and do a little workout.
[00:51:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: Hit machines or treadmills or walks, just to machines. And my wife keeps me on the right track as far as eating, and I understand that, that kind of thing. And, uh, God has given me, uh, a lot of, uh, good health and, and my genes, I guess, are important.
[00:51:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, well, of course they are. And so, and being an educator of kids at a certain age during a generation now where kids are so much more stressed.
[00:51:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:55] Speaker A: About things that they see online, or again, the, you know, back to the law enforcement thing and the. The impression that they have about law enforcement, that may or may not be true, but they stress over things that seem nominal in terms of their self worth and things. How do you, having such a grand life experience and obviously growing up, having no experience with things like social media and ways that people from, you know, Jersey could bully somebody in Houston and make an impact, you know, what, what do you tell your kids when it comes to stuff like that?
[00:52:31] Speaker B: The kids stress too much over things that are not important. They think they're important, but they're not.
You know, I hear sometimes when they're getting ready for college, they're all concerned about different issues that might come up in college. And my theory is, whether it's college or work, just take it a day at a time and, and know, you know, the direction want to go. But most of all, whatever, whatever they want to get into, I think they really need to have a passion for what that is. And once they have that, they'll be happy. It's not, you know, rather than looking at the fact they want to make a ton of money the first five years are out of college rather than something like that. You know, be passionate about what you're doing and you'll have a good life and, you know, keep religion and God in your life.
[00:53:26] Speaker A: Well, I really appreciate all that you've done. I mean, you've made your mark. You're still making your mark.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: I have a great appreciation for that too, that you do something great, and that doesn't mean that you are then done. And I admire you for looking forward and trying to impact the communities for the better. It's an honor to have you here.
[00:53:43] Speaker B: I appreciate that.
[00:53:44] Speaker A: Yes, sir.
[00:53:45] Speaker B: And thank you for your book.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: Yes, sir.
What's it take? What you gonna do? What you gonna do? Success around the sand watch the second grade rules a confident thing to make you do to make it you what they want when they won't be the.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: Fool.
[00:54:10] Speaker A: A diplomatic base is the one to see see it through don't let those figures take you off you game or just let em lose just sit here in the front seat baby, ain't that sweet? Take a little honey from the money bee but don't pay the fool.
[00:54:37] Speaker B: Rolls.
[00:54:37] Speaker A: Either ocean, I never found a 63.
[00:54:41] Speaker B: Like.
[00:54:45] Speaker A: Between blurry line if you gonna call me back.
