Investors. Whiskey. Science ⚛️ - Leaders With a Cause

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Number one, do not accept the predetermined pigeonhole that somebody wants to put you in. Get rid of any victim mentality that you might have or that might be attempting to be put on you. And I will say that with confidence, because I'll just tell you a story. I was at 711 a couple of months ago, maybe six months ago, this kid, turns out he's 21, black kid, walks up to me, introduces himself, and says, you know, says, I like your car. And I said, oh, thank you very much. We start talking. We have now texted back and forth. Every single week we meet. We have a cadence. Once a month, we go to lunch. He's studying to be an electrician. And he asks questions, never stops asking questions. How do I do this? How do I think about this? What do you think about this? And that started a conversation. But I asked him, I said, you know, a lot of people in your position, he told me a lot about his background, would not do what you did. Why? He was the one. Those were not my words. He was the one who said, I refuse to accept what I see. A lot of my family telling me I have to accept. [00:01:22] Speaker B: I'm excited because today we have some hard hitting entrepreneurs on the tcast. These cats are brothers. So we talk about the dynamic of actually working together, figuring out who does what and how you get along and running big companies, small companies, being investors. They've built companies and sold them for millions and millions of dollars. They also invest in smaller companies and entrepreneurs. They have great advice and life experience to share with you. Whether you're a budding entrepreneur, whether you work for an employer, or you're an experienced businessman, there's tons of stuff here. These two cats are co owners of Prax neuro leadership. It's a leadership program, a corporate leadership program that also very much applies to real life. For those of you that aren't in corporate leadership, with an application of neuroscience, of course. And we love to hear a lot about that. But importantly, I found out these two cats are co owners in oak and Eden. Whiskey. Seriously aged in tradition, steeped in innovation. If whiskey is part of the conversation, then so am I. So I was super stoked to hear about that, too. And we'll talk about that amongst many other experiences they have to share. So, without further ado, please help me in welcoming my two great buddies, Alex and Andrew Jasbre, to the tcast. We have the oak and Eden out. So you guys are investors in part of this? Correct. Oak and Eden. What brought that about? [00:02:54] Speaker C: Luck. Luck. We were brought to a dinner through a mutual friend. And I recall. I don't think I'm misremembering. I recall just saying yes. To go to the dinner. Cause I was. [00:03:05] Speaker A: To the dinner. [00:03:06] Speaker C: To the dinner. [00:03:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:07] Speaker C: I was curious. And it was represented as a whiskey investment. And so I just said yes. It was at Bob's downtown Fort Worth. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Oh, they got some great whiskey down there, too. [00:03:17] Speaker C: They do. And I happen to have an open evening. In fact, the reason why I say luck is if I was busy that evening, I just would have said no, and we probably wouldn't be invested. So serendipitous. Yeah. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:31] Speaker C: What do you think? [00:03:32] Speaker A: Well, I. First of all, they had a good story. They did, but I wouldn't have invested. Basically, Andrew said, let's do it. And I said, okay. Cause he knows what he's talking about. He can decipher whether something's good or bad with regard to this space. And I don't really have much of a clue. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Just. Cause you don't sip as often or just business wise. [00:03:52] Speaker A: I really don't. I like smelling it. I really. That's why I have this right now. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna sip on it. [00:03:58] Speaker B: That's not the fun part. There you go. Get you some of that. [00:04:02] Speaker C: Depending on how you look at it. Their shtick, so to speak, is the. Is the spire inside. And that's their unique differentiator. And I thought that was cool. And I still do. [00:04:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:13] Speaker C: If you go to their location in clear fork, their own only retail location. Actually, that's not true. They have one in Bridgeport, their original. But the one in clear fork, that's close to us. There's 304 different varietals, so you can make 304 different customized bottles. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:30] Speaker C: And that's awesome. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Um, where do they get the. The main drink from? Where do they get the mash? [00:04:37] Speaker C: MGP, which is in Indiana. And it's. If you go into a liquor store, um, this is probably not popular to say. Um, and most, uh, whiskey, um, entrepreneurs don't like this being out there. But I'll just say it. 30% of the whiskeys, 35% of the whiskeys on the shelf are from one place, and then it's marketing after that. You put your label on it, you buy it from MGP, and then you put your label on it, and you say, tegan's whiskey. [00:05:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:05] Speaker C: Um, what Okon does is they source through MGP, and then they do what's called in bottle finishing, which allows for that, you know, variety, spectrum of flavor profiles. So that makes them very unique, as opposed to some of the others on the shelf. [00:05:20] Speaker B: And for amateurs. Explain. Aspire. [00:05:23] Speaker C: So, yeah, so the. If you. If you develop whiskey, you do that in really only one way. You put it in a barrel. Um, so the spire. The spire that's inside four. And I think it's four inches. If you were to unravel that spire, it mimics what a barrel does for whiskey in terms of finishing. So it takes about six weeks, and then the whiskey is fully infused with whatever flavor you put in there. In fact, I think we have one right here. Um, I made this one, and it's four grain. That's the base french oak. And then amaro. So I had. This is the level of control that the consumer has, which is really cool. The spire was my choice. [00:06:03] Speaker B: And spire is made out of different kinds of wood. [00:06:06] Speaker C: French oak. Yeah, all. All sorts, you know, all sorts of different types of wood. [00:06:10] Speaker B: That's fascinating. Yeah, yeah, we. [00:06:12] Speaker A: We see why I defer to him. [00:06:13] Speaker B: Say again? [00:06:14] Speaker A: You see why I defer to him on this. [00:06:16] Speaker B: We totally. [00:06:17] Speaker C: There's plenty of stuff he knows that I don't know. So I don't know if this is a, you know, misspent youth that I know. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Not at all. That's what I say. I'm. I'm a whiskey connoisseur, but not a snob. So you can buy me a $40 bottle or $400 bottle, and I will enjoy both. Not all of them, but. But I was fascinated with that, too. That's a really cool business. So what did they have to sit you down and pitch? Did they say, hey, we want to pitch you this, and that's why you went, yeah. [00:06:42] Speaker C: What do you remember? [00:06:43] Speaker B: How does that work? [00:06:44] Speaker A: I went because, like Andrew said, it was a mutual friend, somebody that I had a private relationship with, and he was now hooked up with. Ok. And Eden. And we sat down. But it wasn't just a pitch. I mean, it was a story, and they laid out and we got to taste it. And it was fun for me because I think in some ways, I went in with a more open mind because I don't have some preconceived notion of how something is supposed to taste. So I was really sort of tasting things somewhat for the first time. I thought it was good, you know, relative to my palate. [00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:14] Speaker A: But when Andrew said, you know, this. This is. This is something that we might want to be involved in. Of course. [00:07:20] Speaker B: How do you decide when you guys have. How many different businesses do you work with? [00:07:24] Speaker A: Now, do you mean actively, like operationally or from an investment standpoint? [00:07:31] Speaker B: An investment standpoint, I mean, ones that you're running from by proxy or running firsthand. Is there. I mean, it doesnt have to be a large number. Im just curious how many? [00:07:41] Speaker A: I think the ones that, I would say the ones that take up any given day, probably four. But from an investment standpoint, by proxy, quite a few more. Clay? [00:07:52] Speaker C: Yeah. I would say, tegan, that I have active. What am I involved in day to day, either investing in our business or ourselves? For me, it's really just one. That's, that's prax. But we have seven or eight or nine other passive investments where our money is deployed, and we're betting on a leadership team or a product or both. Um, to succeed. [00:08:15] Speaker B: Right. And is that a leadership team that you put in place or is that just. [00:08:20] Speaker C: No, the passive ones are existing, um, leadership teams that, that, um, we, we buy, so to speak, that, that they can succeed and. Ok. And Eden is an example of that. Their leadership team sat down in front of us and gave us the story, as Alex said, and why they decided to create such a product that's unique in a very crowded whiskey space, how they were going to succeed. And of course, there's no direct line. In fact, they've had to pivot many times since even four years ago, the pandemic and the bourbon industry, in terms of being bought, has changed tremendously. Used to care about revenue. Probably. Remember George Clooney's sale with his tequila? Yeah, I think he sold for almost a billion dollars. And that was 30 times revenue. Well, that was more common now. That's not common now. They're looking for profitability. So the industry has changed and now. [00:09:15] Speaker B: They'Re learning how to actually age whiskey through nice. [00:09:19] Speaker C: Yes. [00:09:20] Speaker B: An unnatural process. [00:09:22] Speaker C: Which. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Have you tasted any of that? [00:09:24] Speaker C: I haven't. [00:09:24] Speaker A: Accelerating it? [00:09:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, like less than a year to get a six to eight. [00:09:29] Speaker C: What was your, what was your impression? [00:09:31] Speaker B: I haven't. [00:09:32] Speaker C: Oh, you haven't tried it? [00:09:33] Speaker B: No, I've never tried one either. I've saw that there was an article about how they're doing it, and I'm sure somebody that has a real discerning palette would be able to say, hmm, I think this is different than that. [00:09:43] Speaker C: Right. [00:09:43] Speaker A: But, you know, somebody like, though, against the point, I mean, the source point sort of does feel like the aging process and where it was and this the story. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Look at how many things are going that way. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Whiskey's not that good. I mean, if you just taste it awesome. [00:10:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:10:01] Speaker B: But there is something, again, that's part of this, that's part of the inherent story of whiskey in itself, is that it's been aged. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker B: And so it could crowd the space more, which could make it a more difficult kind of a business idea. But. [00:10:14] Speaker C: So I don't know if this is why I agree with Alex here, but, like, there's a guitar right over there, an expert level drummer. I've seen you play drums. If you could just snap your fingers and automatically be a classic guitarist, what does that take away from not only the players experience, but also the audience? Well, you didn't earn it, right? Whiskey feels like that. Like you need to earn it. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Well, that's what I meant. This, that's happening in a, in a broad manner because we've got AI coming in, and you also have a generation of people who, if you start at 14, learning how to put something into a computer and spit out music that is listenable, then that is the extent of your journey. So I'm trying not to be critical, too, because it's a completely different generation. I mean, it's like not having the same context and expecting them to understand the beauty of that. But do you deal with people of newer generations and how do you handle them differently? Or do you handle them any differently in terms of the people you hire and stuff like that in any of your businesses? [00:11:22] Speaker C: You want to take that one? [00:11:23] Speaker A: Well, I will say so. I'm, you know, I mentor a couple of younger people that are in their twenties. Then I have kids that are late teens, early twenties. And I think the thing that I noticed the most is, I mean, you're just telling the story about whiskey, trying to microwave that as if the point is the conclusion and what they digest on a daily basis is so conclusion based. And let's get to the end. [00:11:52] Speaker B: Instantaneous. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Instantaneous. I mean, it's not even. We sort of, we're sort of, last ten years was the microwave generation. Now it's just, I mean, whatever. Convection microwave, I guess. I mean, it just can't get there fast enough. But there's so many lessons in life to be learned from what it takes to get there. And I don't know, that worries me. I try not to be critical either, because I don't understand AI and what its capabilities are. Chat, GPT, things like that, that sort of offend me from an ideological standpoint, just because I feel like it's just not just cheating, but you're cheating yourself, but understanding a sentence structure. But if you read some of this stuff, it's pretty impressive. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Conversely, I see a lot of graduates that come and apply at our company, and. But these guys have bachelor's degrees and can't tell the difference between the and the. So it just is. [00:12:46] Speaker C: Tell me what that difference is. Offline. [00:12:49] Speaker B: There's less of an emphasis on that type of thing. You know, cursive, they don't teach cursive anymore, stuff like that. That just. It's bygone. But, and I ask everybody this question, whether the musicians or whoever, because I'm fascinated with the AI generation and how you can leverage it, because you either. I think it was Avery that just said, you know, I think it's a concerning thing, a concerning aspect about the way she was in the music industry. But if you don't leverage it, even as a musician who can play and can sing and can write, then you're missing out on staying in the forward movement of where the whole industry is going. And so that's what I wonder about employment in any business or whatever, especially if you have multiple businesses, by proxy or otherwise, how are you going to handle, or do you have a process by which you are able to communicate better? Because I know I'm older than even you guys, so I understand it even less, but I have to make a fervent effort to learn about it. So is there something that you do when you're. You have to hire a staff or hire a leadership group? [00:13:56] Speaker C: Well, just to go back, I think these aren't fully baked ideas, Tegan, so proceed with caution here. But I think in terms of AI, it's indisputable that work can be accelerated with it. I view it as a productivity accelerator. Initially, I thought that it was going to squelch creativity, but I think human beings will always find. Find a way to be creative. So I would distill it down. My potential issue with AI is effort and reward. So the ability to put in hard work and then yield that reward that you engaged in. AI represents, at least for me, that gap being tightened, and I don't think that's a good thing. [00:14:45] Speaker A: Yeah, my concern, I mean, you mentioned it, whether it's whiskey or you use the illustration of a guitar, I'm talking about writing something. The struggle is the humanity. If we had a movie and we just. The movie was the ending. The struggle that we grew up watching, well, that's what sort of some social media is. It's the conclusion. It's the ending. It's the finale. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just it misses some of the humanity and some of the struggle. Chat GPT having to write a paragraph and say, this isn't right. This isn't what I was trying to say. This wasn't what I was trying to convey and struggle with. Well, do I just delete the whole thing and start over? When you finally get it, you feel a sense of reward. Same thing with the guitar, same thing with a properly aged whiskey or anything. And I think separating AI sort of separates us from the human element and the human condition, part of which, an important part of which I think is the struggle. I think that's sad. I think that's sad. Makes me sad. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Was there any way, do you think you could educate people about that or maybe meet in the middle? Because obviously you can't just be the old man. This is why we do it. Get off my lawn. [00:15:57] Speaker C: Pretend AI doesn't exist. [00:15:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we do that every day. But you asked about when we go hire. We probably wouldn't hire people without sort of the proper credentials of the businesses that we're focused on. And Andrew's right. There's one primary one that we focus on every day. We're very selective about the people because we're leading other people. But the question is, who are we leading? And a lot of times we're leading folks that have fallen into that trap of focusing on the wrong thing, whether it's a conclusion or some missing a part of their own humanity. That's what we do every day. That's what we focus on of taking those people and hiring the proper people that sort of are already past that and understand that to help explain it. [00:16:42] Speaker B: So you're not hiring millennials is what you're saying? We're not, but we're in a seniors, you'll have to. Yes, because eventually the 70 year old dudes with all this wisdom are going to be gone. [00:16:51] Speaker C: Tegan said it, we didn't, but that is accurate. [00:16:55] Speaker A: You know what, though, Teagan, I understand. We used, we hired, I mean, we had a company where we at one point had 4000 millennials. Yeah, 4000 in 39 states. [00:17:05] Speaker B: But wasn't millennials that far? That was still long enough ago to where we really hadn't hit this revolution. Is that. Am I correct? How long ago was that? [00:17:13] Speaker C: Yes, about ten years. [00:17:14] Speaker A: Ten years ago. So, so you're right, it's not exactly the same. But one thing that I was heartened by through that entire process was how responsible 20 year olds can be. 21 year olds can be, yeah. How competent they can be. And the popular notion that you just give up on them because they fit into some sort of generation and they're not like you for sure. I didn't find that to be the case. [00:17:41] Speaker C: But that's good in terms of, you talked about generations and what's the defining thing that our grandparents lived through? Great Depression. I think about Gen Z or Gen Alpha, which I think is 95, 2012. So your gen alpha, if you're born after 2012, I would say the defining thing for that generation is options. They have too many options. [00:18:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:08] Speaker C: And the literature is not kind to options. Human beings aren't wired for too many options. In fact, the evidence suggests that too many options leads to stress and anxiety and discontent, for sure. Less options is better. So I feel sad for the newer generations because it feels like an unstoppable force. We can't slow down and simplify the options that are available to them. And if you struggle with ADHD, you know, it's that one way to think about that is a highly flexible brain and that's really what it is. It's a good thing. And that's why you see people with ADHD really succeed post school, because they're very creative. Multitasking is not really an accurate statement. We actually can't multitask. We're single taskers. But what we can do is switch tasks. And there's a cost. There's a, it's like a speed bump for your brain. There's a cost in doing that, which is why so many people with ADHD struggle, because we're switching all the time. Yeah, me too. So being able to focus is incredibly important. And there's, there's chemicals for that as well. Um, so just getting back to it, options is, I think, is their biggest challenge. [00:19:19] Speaker B: So when we go and we jump into your primary business, then do you have that kind of clientele that comes in? Because Prax is a leadership type course. Why don't you describe what Prax is first and then, and then maybe talk about if you have people that suffer from that. I certainly do, only because I have too many aspirations for my own good. And so I will take an entire day and jump from thing to thing. And as I'm doing one thing, I'm stressed that the other's not getting done. And I'm constantly. So I have to, I have to forcibly focus and then write down a very specific thing that I can't leave until it's done type thing. [00:19:58] Speaker C: We call that out maneuvering ourselves because you've learned to deal with it and harness the power and let's. I mean, I do believe that there are aspects of ADHD that are kind of a superpower. They can be devastating as well, because we can be drowning in the task switching that happens all the time and then feel very unproductive. [00:20:15] Speaker B: Yeah. When you can get super myopic. I get into something, I see the squirrel, and I'm like, wow, I could really decorate that squirrel. Like, really good. And I focus on that squirrel and ignore everything else until I see a different squirrel, you know, but that's. Is that a lot of. Is that a portion of what you guys deal with in Prax? Explain what Prax is. First of all. [00:20:35] Speaker C: Sure. [00:20:36] Speaker B: More than a leadership program. [00:20:37] Speaker A: It is. Well, first of all, the thing that I think is very different is that Prax takes its name from the latin word praxis. So it's a abbreviated version of that, which means to practice. So it is, first of all, first and foremost, self leadership, which is different than just leadership. I think a lot of times there are all sorts of leadership academies, and we look at Prax more as a self leadership process. It's a way of life, and it really follows the journey of anybody who's ever wanted to be good at something, solve any problem, and get all the way to a conclusion of actually being better at something, whether that's well being, how they feel, or an actual skill that they want to develop. But if you look at anybody who's ever actually become good at anything, the only it. First of all, it involves them. There's certain things you can't, you know, outsource, and it involves an awful lot of practice. And so what Prax does is, through its various curricula, is it follows that process. And I think it's different than what. What we've seen others do. I'll take you through it, but we just sort of start with a desire, a want. I want to be good at anything. And it requires certain things to get to that end result. Can't fast forward that you can't microwave. It requires a certain amount of introspection, a certain amount of looking in the mirror. Where am I? What are the things I'm good at? What are the things I'm not so good at? It requires reality. Seeing the world, seeing yourself as it is, rather than how you wish it were. [00:22:06] Speaker B: Do you ever end up discouraging someone who says, this is really what I want to do, and they come to realize that this really isn't my thing, but I still want to do it? Is there ever a point where you get to say, look, I mean, obviously you're not. You're the authority in terms of the course curriculum, but is that ever something? I know tons of people, again, I want to be a rock star. And then. But they're. They don't know why. And then once they figure out why, they just think, well, I. You know, I have arthritis, too, so I doubt I'll be able to play this or that. Is there ever a time where, like, look, find something else, and how can we find something else? [00:22:42] Speaker C: I can't remember who said it, but it's, uh. Opportunity is often missed because it's dressed in overalls and looks like work. And I. I think the opposite of what you're saying is more often true. People are discouraged because they come to Prax and they're expecting what they normally get fed in our industry, which is a click or a clap. Like, we need to do click through modules, and then we're going to know something new. The reality is, we're going to learn about 5% of it, and then there's going to be no change on Tuesday. But people like what's familiar to them, so they're going to expect this click through or a clap, which I would refer to as just, we're going to get inspired on a Thursday, and we're going to clap. And this changed my life. And then Tuesday, nothing happens. So we prefer to think of it in terms of creating ourselves, which does take hard work. So I guess what I would say, Tegan, is that people get discouraged when the reality is, is that this is going to take work, this is going to take effort. [00:23:43] Speaker B: That's so ironic. Cause I think that applies to. I mean, that's back to the whole generational thing. Again, it was just no one's fault, but this the way the system works. But I apologize for interjecting. I was just curious. [00:23:57] Speaker A: No, it's a good question. And, you know, the other thing that I think that gets overlooked in that journey of I want a conclusion, is the skills necessary. So whatever it is, whether it's. I mean, whether it is well being or it's a golf swing, it requires somebody that you listen to with a certain amount of humility. Anytime you learn anything, it requires a certain amount of personal or professional humility to say, this person knows better. So that involves a coach to teach you the knowledge and the skills. And the curriculum that we have for pracs is focused on science and research. It's not rah rah. It's not yay, yay. Yay. It's not trying to motivate somebody for a Tuesday. It's beginning a lifelong process. But at some point, that baton gets taken and you have to just go practice it yourself. And that requires just you. And it requires all of the aforementioned traits and steps along the way to be repeated and repeated and repeated. So there's not a magic pill. And I think that's the thing that people come in so often, signing up for a class, thinking, I'm going to take this, or I'm going to sign up for something online, I'm going to read it, or I'm going to go through the video in conclusion. And it's just like life. And there's not an easy step. [00:25:17] Speaker B: Is that one of the main differentiators? Because there are other courses, obviously, kind of like that, sort of like that, that are immersive or whatever. Is that one of the main differentiators in terms of just leadership options? Because it's. It's also a crowded space. I think you guys have set yourself on a tier so that, you know, people are going to invest a significant amount to get into it. So, you know, they're gonna damn well mean it if they want to join in, which. Which is one. But that's not necessarily. [00:25:46] Speaker A: That's an initial filter. And it's not just monetary, it's desired. Because our clients are companies, and a lot of times, people send their employees. You know, Bob needs this. Yeah, but the first thing that Andrew specifically will do with Bob is you have to step in, you have to select in, because if you're not selecting in for you, not because your boss sent you, it's not going to work. [00:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it does remind me of a rehab, because that also is work. You know, you go in and you want to be healed. [00:26:18] Speaker A: Right? [00:26:18] Speaker B: You have a problem, you finally acknowledge it. You go in, and then. But you want to be done in 30 days. [00:26:23] Speaker C: Yep. [00:26:24] Speaker B: But the ones that work are nine months long. [00:26:27] Speaker C: It's funny you say that, Tegan, because this word is distracting for lots of folks, but a goal is nothing more than an intervention on behavior. Any goal. We're by definition, doing something different than we were before, because if not, then it's the path of least resistance. [00:26:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:43] Speaker C: Um. I, uh. I wanted to make a comment about. I forgot what I was going to say. Um, as you were talking. Oh. In terms of differentiators, um, practices, by far the biggest differentiator, because most people are not ready to sign up for the work and effort associated with improving themselves. Research, evidence based more specifically, I think it's another big differentiator. Cannot tell you how many times, in fact, we all have sat in front of someone who is sharing their opinions, their anecdotes, but it's not rooted in evidence. So if you look in terms of the hierarchy of evidence, there's opinion at the bottom, and we have a lot of charlatans in the leadership industry that are just sharing their opinions and they can be very motivational. Then we have a case study. We even have clinical trials. But at the very top is a meta analysis or systematic review. That means scientists all looking at the same thing and saying, that is true and verifiable, and Prax is built on that type of research. So between practice and research, evidence based, I think there's a fairly big moat between us and everybody else. And one last thing that I think is worth mentioning, lots of folks that get involved in our industry train in that discipline. So if you're an organizational psychologist, you went to school for that. You went to school to become an organizational psychologist, but you didn't necessarily run and scale and sell a company. So this is, as the ticket would say, this goes on our bragging montage, but I still think it's worth saying that we're connected to the leaders that we work with because we've also sat in their seat, and I find that to be really important in very key moments. [00:28:29] Speaker B: So what kind of science do you, what, what kind of science do you seek out in order to get something? Leadership seems like something that is atypical in terms of actual science, but obviously, studies and everything apply in this, in this instance. But what kind of science is this? What kind of studies do they do in order for, for them to come to a conclusion where this is, or is it less leadership based in the terms of the real strictness of the word and more scientific and human based reality? [00:29:02] Speaker A: I'm glad you made that distinction there at the end, because I just want to say this before Andrew answers, because I think he'll do a better job of describing it. But it's not leadership in sort of the way most people think of it, like, oh, I'm going to go to practice. I'm going to learn how to be a better leader, a leader of others. It is truly about leading oneself. Everybody is actually a leader, and it's about choice. It is about understanding that life is about the choices that you make, that you select and that you pursue, not chance that happens to you. And so it's just to underscore the conversation itself, is that it really isn't about leadership in the traditional sense. It really is truly focused on an individual. In fact, before Andrew responds, I would say sort of a dream of mine is that our company, you know, our clients are companies, but I want to do business mostly. And I'm drawn toward and gravitate toward companies that are almost able to sort of divorce themselves of the knowledge that by making their humans, their people, their employees better, that the company will be better. My favorite companies are those that actually want to invest in a person understanding that very naturally that a high tide will lift all boats, but that their motivation is not the bottom right side of the p and l or balance sheet, is that they have improved an individual's life and sort of from the inside out of a company, because that's where we're. Where we not only did it, but we have seen that's when actual change, actual improvement in happiness actually takes place. [00:30:48] Speaker B: That's the right motivation. [00:30:49] Speaker A: It is. Look, they can do the math and know that, okay, this is gonna benefit us. Of course, in terms of your happier workforce is a more productive one. But I just think. I just. Sometimes I get tired, frankly, of the metrics and the KPI's and how do you know if you liked a movie when you walk out of it? You know, do you have to consult some database? No. You ask yourself, boy, that was funny. I laughed. And sometimes I just wish that companies could look at their people and instead of just the lip service of they're the most important things we have. Of course they are. And what are you going to do about it? And investing in them, investing them as people. It will benefit you, but it will benefit them. That's a good motivation. [00:31:40] Speaker B: Super. [00:31:41] Speaker C: I would say we're in a subset of leadership that we would refer to as neuro leadership, and neuro leadership is really just a fancy word. If neuroscience and leadership had a love child, it would be that. [00:31:56] Speaker B: Hence the science that I was asking about. [00:31:59] Speaker C: That's right. [00:31:59] Speaker B: That's the type of science we're talking about. Neuroscience, right? [00:32:02] Speaker C: Yep. Yep. Neuroscience and leadership combined, and neuroscience is really just the study of cognition and behavior. So, like, why do we do what we do? And traditional leadership even is kind of the same thing. They're both interested in the same thing. They just get there in two different ways. Interested in decision making. We're interested in regulating our emotions and our thoughts, and we're interested in influencing change. And neuroscience and leadership have that in common, so they're more powerful together. So neuroscience isn't on the scene to challenge leadership. It's on the scene to make it better. And in many ways, it's confirmed what leadership gurus have known for many decades. In another sense, it's creating new avenues for change, for companies like us to invest in people in a real scientific and meaningful way, as opposed to just anecdotal. [00:32:57] Speaker B: I love it. So with that ideal and fitting into the trajectory of what we're trying to accomplish here, how can you leverage, or how do you leverage bringing people who are. Could never even dream to afford something like this? Or if they had aspirations to start a business, they're. They're in a socioeconomically compromised neighborhood. They don't have an uncle who can loan them 25 grand to start their business. They can't afford to go to college. They're just like, is there some way that you know of that can those people can be reached and experience some of the same things that come from zero? And I'm not saying that this has to happen. I'm just on their behalf. How could somebody that might be listening say, well, I'd love to do that, but I can't. So how, how would you, how would you recommend somebody with no resources as. [00:33:56] Speaker C: Well go about, so the old adage, but still, still a true control, the controllable. So if you're set up with lots of disadvantages, then what are the things that we actually can do, but we still have to embrace reality. So what is the world care about and the world cares about? I think in business, two things. They care about knowledge, and they care about persistence. And those are fortunately two things that anyone can actually control, regardless of their starting point. First base or third base. To your point, this is probably not what you were looking for, but our dad grew up in a very poor italian neighborhood in south side of Chicago, and his house was no bigger than the area rug that we're sitting on right now. And I think he's an example of controlling the controllables. He recognized that he wanted to be a physician. Everyone laughed at him except for his own parents, finished college in three years, got a master's degree, and then went on to medical school while driving a city bus in Chicago. So he understood that the world recognizes credentials, so he went and got an education, and he didn't give up. So I would say if this is even advice, regardless of your circumstance, it's get a degree that the world recognizes that's helpful. It's not necessary. There's plenty of stories out there of people who've succeeded without degrees, but the world does still recognize that. I would say more than anything you could do the Matt Damon in what's the movie where he doesn't have the Harvard degree, but good will hunting, you can go to the library and become knowledgeable. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Yeah, but that becomes more difficult with, like we talked about earlier, the amount of information. If I'm trying to learn something that has a large scale amount of information that's contradictory, I then have to discern all that and make up my own mind which causes that anxiety. And then I have to say, okay, which one's right? And I'm going to step on that rock and hope that it floats, you know, so, so I do understand what you're saying, and I'm not, I'm not, uh, saying that anything that you said is wrong, but it's also, I mean, your dad was an anomaly too. If you grow up in a poor neighborhood, of course the vast majority of percentages are those people only, only see this high. [00:36:05] Speaker C: I completely agree with you, but that's, but that's. [00:36:07] Speaker B: I know that's cultural and I know it's because my parents and my grandparents. And so this is, this is where your ceiling is and your decisions are made on that. So what are some ways we could open someone's mind to the fact that there is more, even though they are, you know, pre, in a predisposition that, that thinks the ceiling is only 6ft tall? [00:36:27] Speaker A: So I will tell you, first of all, I would just say there are a lot of kids born on third base that squander that. [00:36:33] Speaker C: Yeah, no kidding. [00:36:33] Speaker A: You know what I mean? For sure. And it was funny to hear our dad talk about describing his existence as being lucky because he had to scrap and work and he didn't wake up and say, oh, this is always going to be. It was, how do I get out of this? And so on some level, and for the right kind of people, it's an advantage. As odd as that sounds, I will tell you that for us, we sort of, we look for opportunities, sort of a rifle as opposed to a shotgun. It's hard for us to do this at the Prax level. But as I mentioned before, I mentor a lot of, lot of folks as they come into my life and somehow they just keep coming into my life. And I will tell you in direct response to what advice would I have for somebody that is in that situation? Number one, do not accept the predetermined pigeonhole that somebody wants to put you in. Number one, get rid of any victim mentality that you might have or that might be attempting to be put on you. And I will say that with confidence, because I'll just tell you a story. I was at 711 a couple of months ago, maybe six months ago, this kid, turns out he's 21, black kid, walks up to me, introduces himself and says, you know, says, I like your car. And I said, oh, thank you very much. We start talking. We have now texted back and forth. Every single week we meet. We have a cadence. Once a month, we go to lunch. He's studying to be an electrician, and he asks questions, never stops asking questions. How do I do this? How do I think about this? What do you think about this? What would you do if you were me in this situation? [00:38:26] Speaker B: That's good advice, too. Just. [00:38:27] Speaker A: He doesn't know me. [00:38:28] Speaker B: He didn't know me. [00:38:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:38:30] Speaker A: He just said, can I ask you how I get to do that now? I mean, he was, how do I get to drive that in that particular case? But it was a 2008 car, but it doesn't matter. But it was cool to him. And that started a conversation. And the reason why I said the first part is because I asked him at one point, and this is why I love doing this, is I get so much out of it. But I asked him, I said, you know, a lot of people in your position, he told me a lot about his background, would not do what you did. Why? He was the one. Those were not my words. He was the one who said, I refuse to accept what I see a lot of my family telling me I have to accept. Right. [00:39:12] Speaker C: What Alex is talking about, and I think is more of the spirit of your question, reminds me of a study that HBR, Harvard Business review, published about the Hallmark traits that a person needs to develop mastery in their field. So they started with the eight competencies that every leader needs, and strategic thinking and industry knowledge, and they go down. They isolated the four Hallmark traits that you need, and I think they're insight, determination, engagement. And there's varying levels of degrees of each of those that you need. But there was only one that you needed to develop mastery in all eight areas, and it was curiosity. Number one. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:53] Speaker C: Number one. [00:39:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:54] Speaker C: And so Alex is talking about that. And so maybe the advice is be curious. [00:39:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's great advice. I think a lot of people have expectations, and when they see that, they're limited, that's where it stops. Yeah. [00:40:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:08] Speaker B: But I think learning how to ask a question, well, how can I change my disposition? I mean, that's. That's a huge one. And it's powerful. I appreciate that. And part of what we try to find out is what makes you have two people in a family and they're in the same abusive family? And one says, I will never act like this. And the other one says, hey, this is great. And then they become the same addict and wife abuser or whoever. But what is that pivot? You know what? And there's. I know it can't be narrowed down to one thing, but I think the curiosity piece could entail getting somebody to another level if they ask the right people the right questions. [00:40:51] Speaker C: Yeah. Another way of answering, I think the question is, get access to people who are doing who you want to be, doing what you want to be. And I think that's one of the things that this kid. What is his name? [00:41:06] Speaker A: His name's Jaleb. I didn't know if he'd want me to say his name's Jaleb. [00:41:10] Speaker B: Be sure we put a beep right there. [00:41:12] Speaker A: Actually, you know what? Honestly, Jaleb would. Would be proud of that story, but he's doing what we're 100%. I have a lot of respect. A lot of respect for him. I've learned a lot from him and others. And you're right, the commonality is curiosity, persistence. Because, by the way, this, I ran into him probably seven or eight months ago, and it was a busy time, and I didn't meet with him for about two months. We texted a lot, but it was, like, busy, busy. He never stopped. [00:41:44] Speaker C: He stayed in the fight. [00:41:45] Speaker A: Never stopped. Never stopped. [00:41:47] Speaker B: Yeah, he heard about you. He's like, nah, I'm oppressed, this dude. [00:41:51] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:52] Speaker B: Do you have a success story that came out of the prax? I know it's fairly new, so if you don't have one to tell and you have to name names, but somebody that went through a transform, transformative experience or anything that you could talk about. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, you can just change whoever's name you're thinking of, but there are so many little anecdotes. I think probably one stands out. If you want to talk to them about. I feel badly about saying names, but. [00:42:19] Speaker B: You know, don't say names. [00:42:20] Speaker A: One that is exceptional has a. Has a wife that. That, you know, you probably ought to tell that story because that was significant. There's a way to. [00:42:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So I would say for only they. [00:42:33] Speaker B: Will know this is going out way farther than this little. [00:42:37] Speaker C: I'll say this, the highest compliment that I've ever received from actually a physician who went through one of our programs. That's that that takes 13 months. And it is immersive, and it's not for the faint of heart. And you absolutely have to opt in. And they work on themselves, um, uh, scrutinize themselves for a year, and, um, they get accountability, a community with high standards and executive coach. So they're getting feedback. And this particular physician said that Prax helped me transform my soul. And it's like that, like, just, oh, I mean, that, that is what we're trying to do now. He did the work. He did all the work. But I'll say the first thing that made that possible was, was humility and dropping the ego. And, um, and then number two is, is deeply exploring his values. Um, the science is pretty clear on values predicting behavior. Um, so if you can understand what your values are, then that will give you, um, foresight into how you, you will behave. Um, if you just look at someone's behavior, that will give you insight into their values. So it, there's a reciprocal nature, but, um, this guy really, really worked on his values and in his cognition and behavior, which is sort of the holy trinity of our self leadership program. Understanding your deepest priorities, how you think and feel, and then what you actually do, and let's get those things aligned. [00:43:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:58] Speaker A: There's a breakdown process that, you know, my wife went through it. She was in, she was one of the early cohorts. She went through it. She's quite a student. And I watched a transformation. I watched her struggle with figuring out. I mean, I was aware of what that process, the first couple of months are like in terms of breaking that person down and getting to reality. Not what you think you are or not what you think you value, but really introspecting. And some of it's very uncomfortable. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Get out of the interview process. [00:44:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:31] Speaker B: And get into an honest place. [00:44:33] Speaker A: It's real. It's real. And that's why I talked about reality. And I just absolutely am convinced that there is a direct link between reality and accepting it and all of everything that that means and happiness, because you really cannot have true well being or happiness if you don't see problems for what they are, because you can't fix them. [00:44:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:54] Speaker A: If you don't see the world as it is or yourself. That's what I mean. Theres no progress. And then all the other things. Thats why I was sort of constructing that syllogism all the way up to a conclusion, is that you absolutely have got to have a certain level of humility and introspection and security and vulnerability. And all of these things that are not natural, especially in todays society. So that process that Prax takes you through and creates an environment in which that takes place in a natural sort. [00:45:27] Speaker B: Of. [00:45:29] Speaker A: Unthreatening way because you're in it with other people is tremendous to see. [00:45:35] Speaker B: And it's counterintuitive for dudes, right. To put your ego at the end. We say this all the time, hey man, put your ego at the door. We're going to talk about some difficult topics and whatever. [00:45:45] Speaker C: And I don't mind saying that women are by far the best participants on average. [00:45:52] Speaker B: Doesn't surprise me at all. [00:45:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:55] Speaker B: For that reason, I just see lots of guys and I think even the military has shifted a lot of the way that they approach all that stuff. They call it kindler and gentler and there's some things that they probably need to reinstate. [00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:06] Speaker B: But I have a great appreciation for the ability to just drop that. It's like, hey, you're at this rank and I want you to, you know, take that off, pull the stripes off and, you know, go do the undercover boss, but for real and, and be proud to do it. And I think there's a lot of people that don't have the type of humility to put themselves in that kind of situation because they are so self conscious about it. How hard is that to break down when you're working with these guys? [00:46:34] Speaker C: I mean, in some cases, it feels impossible. I wouldn't say that it is impossible because we genuinely believe and there's evidence that everyone can change. It doesn't mean that you do, just means that you can. Of course, a question that we get often, which I, um, I'm not trying to be flippant with the answer, but, you know, who, who isn't successful in, in your programs and I would say know it alls. Just, yeah, just first and foremost, notice, um, if you, if you come in, um, and what's the opposite of curious? Um, and, you know, it's that. So you aren't going to learn anything. Um, in fact, it's worse than that. Um, I think the word toxic is overused, but you become a toxic force in your cohort if you have this community of people who really want to improve and are willing to be vulnerable, and then you have the one ding a ling who doesn't want to do that. They detract from the atmosphere. [00:47:22] Speaker B: And it's always a dude. [00:47:24] Speaker C: In our, in our, in our experience, it's, it's most, the most of the time, it is a dude. But, um, I wouldn't exclude women. I think that. That, um, all of us are capable of that. [00:47:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:34] Speaker C: Um, for sure. But I would say the other way of. The more positive way of saying is that the people that do the best are willing to come in and do the work associated with anything in life that's worth pursuing. Takes effort. [00:47:48] Speaker B: So how do you. How do you keep that from ruining the culture and the determination to get through the course when you have that jackass in there? [00:47:56] Speaker C: Yeah, because there's. [00:47:57] Speaker B: I mean, there's a lot of different circumstances where, you know, you can go take a handgun class or something, and there's always the expert in there that's trying to one up to whatever. There's always those people in every different. [00:48:06] Speaker A: There to show you or show the instructor how good they are, as opposed. [00:48:09] Speaker B: To learning ruins the experience. But your experience, I mean, if you've bought in, I mean, just financially, you're already bought in. Is there. Is there some kind of thing that you do, whether you separate them or whatever, in order to maintain kind of the learning culture? [00:48:23] Speaker C: That's a good question. [00:48:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I will tell you, being real, I think that there were some times where we didn't handle it well. I think that we allowed it to. To go on. [00:48:33] Speaker B: We shouldn't have infiltrate. [00:48:36] Speaker A: And so we've taken some steps now on the front end to ensure that that is not likely to happen, and then on the back end is that they're just not going to be able to be present. It's not fair. It's not fair for the people that are there trying to learn and sacrificing quite a bit of their time and their thought and their energy and their time with their family, and they're trying to better themselves and understand something about themselves. Um, and it's not. It's not fair to have that guy in the room. [00:49:05] Speaker C: Well, you said, um, earlier we talked about rehab. Um, it's funny. Rehab isn't funny, but this concept is funny. [00:49:13] Speaker B: That's. Andrew Jesbray just said rehab is funny. [00:49:16] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:49:16] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:49:17] Speaker A: Mark that, please. [00:49:18] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Mark, uh, if there isn't a sponsor for you, um, in psychology, they call it the audience effect, which is the act of being accountable to something when you're being observed. So, um, if you know that your. Your wife or your husband or your employer, um, or your friend is sponsoring you, um, and I don't mean financially. I mean that they're there watching you attempt to change. [00:49:45] Speaker B: They're an accountability partner. [00:49:46] Speaker C: That's correct. That, um, was a key lever for us. And Alex is right. Um, just popping the hood. We didn't do a great job of that. When we first started. We were so excited to welcome people into change. And then we learned that not everyone wanted to do that, mainly because they didn't see there was a problem. So we also say, see it, want it, do it, which is just really a distillation of pre contemplation. To contemplation, you have to build awareness that there's even opportunity to change. And you can't force people that the number one ingredient for change is choice. You have to choose it. [00:50:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's something I think Prax does an outstanding job of, is not forcing anything. There are several different paths that one can pursue within prax leadership, and those are not suggested. They are chosen. And the whole concept, the whole notion behind it is that you are, yes, going to practice something that you've learned that is skills based, that is evidence based, that is research based, but you're going to have selected that path. That path is not going to have been selected for you because you're not going to succeed if somebody else has chosen your path for you. And so Prax takes that approach and choice is central to the whole notion. [00:51:04] Speaker B: And so this sounds a lot like also some of the programs that are passion and purpose driven. Is that kind of part of the curriculum that you guys talk about? Because, again, you're trying to get people to strip down and then discover what they want and figure out how to get it. Is that just in an essence, kind of part of what that is? [00:51:23] Speaker A: Yeah, Andrew and I feel differently about the passion. [00:51:26] Speaker C: Yeah, we do. Go ahead. We also feel differently about happiness versus contentment, which are not the same thing. [00:51:32] Speaker B: A lot of that you talked about earlier, we just talked about, this is what I want to do. This is what I'm good at. That reminds me, a lot of a passion and purpose and how much you're willing to put in. So in terms of a generic. I'm using a generic term, but it's. But it's also important. Is that something that you touch on at all or do you guys fight about that? [00:51:51] Speaker C: No, no, no. It's a. It's a great question. You know, passion. You know, what? What is that? I would say the first thing that we seek to do with someone coming into Prax is we're going to acknowledge there's a gap between your ideal self in your actual self. We have to acknowledge that first. If we don't see that difference, then how can. What use is it going to be identifying things like passion, if that? We can't even square who we want to be and who we actually are. So I would say it's an indirect way of discovering passions. In fact, I wouldn't say even discovering is a good enough or appropriate word for that. [00:52:31] Speaker B: Uncovering it. [00:52:32] Speaker C: Yeah, that's purpose, too. Sure, sure. Purpose. But I find purpose to be something that you can create. Passion is more emotional, deeply emotional. But I can say now we're ten years removed from running a medical scribe business, and anyone who worked with me is not going to find this to be untrue. I wasn't passionate about medical scribes when we were running the business. I created purpose around my role and I connected it to the things that we were doing, the chess pieces, to a purpose. And that was, I know that everything I do, every meeting, boring meeting that I'm having, or system that I implement, is affecting a patient in Des Moines, Iowa. That's real purpose. But I wouldn't say I rolled out of bed and said, I'm passionate about creating a medical scribe. [00:53:23] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:53:24] Speaker A: One of the things I'll ask people often if they're sort of searching for what they want to be or what their purpose is, or even sometimes people struggle with what they're passionate about, depending on their stage in life. And I do think it does matter. I do think passion, I do think emotion. I think emotion gets bad rap in business. I think it's actually a huge plus. But I will ask them, what is it that you're doing physically? What are you engaged in when you feel the most you? When do you feel like you? And it's interesting, sort of the responses, and it's not a knee jerk sort of response. You have to sort of think about, what is that? When am I? And some people might say, when am I the happiest? And I'm not really looking for the happiest. It's like, when do you feel like you, assuming you kind of like you and. [00:54:17] Speaker B: Different topic. [00:54:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And briefly, the reason why I, that is such an important question for me, is when I went my whole life, I wanted to be a sports broadcaster. That's all I ever wanted to be. And I, I realized, I'll spare you the details, but I realized that that was just entertaining people and I didn't want to entertain people for a living. And so I asked myself a question, and the question really was, when am I the most me? And it was an hour a day when I had my sports radio show so most people would say, oh, well, then you should be a sports broadcaster. But that wasn't it. What I loved was I loved taking a thought. I loved analyzing that thought. I loved talking about that thought and advocating for whatever my opinion was. I said, well, what is that as it relates to something that matters as opposed to what I considered to be mere entertainment? And I said, oh, that's trial law. So I said, I want to go to law school. So I went to law school because I thought that that gave me the best chance of being me. And what I learned with all of the different careers that I've had is that it wasn't really any one of those things that could sort of be winnowed down to that of a teacher. And every, whether as a CEO or the various companies that we get to run together or advise people, I just really like teaching people things. [00:55:41] Speaker B: That's cool. That's a, that's a great story. And that I think it touches on something that I've heard. And tell me if you guys agree, because I'd be interested in your opinion, because you see a lot of people that think they're passionate about baking because they're a hell of a baker and they love the experience. So they start a bakery, and then they realize in short order, they're not baking anymore. They're learning how to do books. And, you know, the. So they lose all. All of the business, ends up taking a flush because they're not really into it anymore because it's so disenchanting to get into that and realize you're just a business person. Now. [00:56:15] Speaker A: It's people that go to law school because they like to argue. They realize that 99% of it is reading and read some more and then read some more and study some more, but. Exactly. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Yeah, we could be friends and argue. Yeah, that's. Don't go to school for that. [00:56:27] Speaker A: Nothing to do with it. [00:56:28] Speaker C: Alex's question, Tegan, is, I think, cleverly insightful, because it seems like there should be an obvious answer to when are you the most you like? When's Tegan the most you, Andrew? Most of you, I think back on a mentor sort of gently reminding me that starting prax versus just going and getting a c suite job at another business that's going to pay you like, day one is going to be a hard road. And they weren't trying to discourage me necessarily, or at least I don't think they were. They were reminding me that there's going to be a lot of discomfort, um, as it relates to this path that you want to pick, um, versus, uh, you can do some other things and have this more safe, um, role. And I look back on that, and I think one of the things that I picked was passion. Um, if we're talking about passion, I I picked. My passion for my favorite thing in a corporate setting was to help people become something new, including myself. It wasn't moving the chess pieces around. It wasn't creating this policy, although those things are necessary. So Prax allowed me to be more of me as opposed to going and sitting in a schlep corporate job, which was. It wasn't very easy thing that I could have done, and I'm glad I didn't do that. [00:57:50] Speaker B: It could still be meaningful, but this person wasn't waiting you. This is one of those examples you're given where they say, I don't think you're made for this. And then the people who are affected by that and turn around and walk away weren't made for it, and you took it that kind of as a challenge. When they bring up, like, you realize what a hard road this is. [00:58:08] Speaker C: They could have been saying that. I'm looking back. In fact, I need to ask them if they might have been 5%. Like, you're not cut out for this. They might have. [00:58:16] Speaker B: They might have meant that just to see your reaction. Sure. [00:58:18] Speaker C: Yeah. What's your commitment to this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's. That's. That might be. I'm actually curious now. [00:58:24] Speaker B: I've had that happen a number of times. [00:58:25] Speaker C: You have? [00:58:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I went to North Texas school of Music, and, you know, like, the first audition is like, man, you're. You really shouldn't be here. [00:58:34] Speaker A: Did that really happen? [00:58:35] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. [00:58:36] Speaker A: I. [00:58:36] Speaker B: Of course I passed the audition and got in and whatever. It was all fine. But. But I think they tell that to everybody. I mean, unless you're, you know, prolific, which I was not. So, uh, you know, if you're on the edge, that's a great way to weed people out, is to. Is to have a peer say, man, I don't think so. Maybe you should, you know, go to a community college and try this or something. [00:58:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:56] Speaker B: And the people that really aren't determined to do it. [00:58:58] Speaker A: Just an initial filter, I guess. [00:59:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because you're still. Even the things that you're doing are not for everybody. And when you talk about leadership and leading companies, everybody has a part in the whole, you know, you can't teach everybody to run a company because not everybody's really going to be made out to do a company? You've got a friend that wants to aspires to be an electrician. We need that so bad. Otherwise, if everyone's trying to lead a company, we're going to have nobody to lead anyway. [00:59:25] Speaker C: If all we are is influencers who's being influenced. [00:59:28] Speaker A: Hold on. But as it relates to Jaleb, that guy is going to run his own electrician company. [00:59:35] Speaker B: I love it. [00:59:36] Speaker A: He will. There's no question. [00:59:37] Speaker B: I'd love to meet him. [00:59:38] Speaker A: I would love to introduce you. He's an impressive kid. He's 21. He's an impressive kid. [00:59:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:43] Speaker C: Let's, let's get him up here. My, uh, my brother in law is a software engineer at Lockheed. He can't talk about anything that he does. He's in cybersecurity. But, um, he's a great software engineer. And then they asked him to manage, and he had enough insight to question whether that was a good jump for him and why it was difficult. It's more money, more status, that kind of thing, more responsibility. But he ultimately raised his hand and said, that's not who I am. I'm really proud of him that he was able to do that. Absolutely. [01:00:12] Speaker B: Well, it's a lot of stress for somebody. It's almost like saying, hey, even when we talked about being curious, it's easier said than done. If for somebody that has anxiety. [01:00:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:00:22] Speaker B: To come up to you and say, hey, what do you do? Or whatever, that's true for some people, is a leap. So it's not really about every single person being the same. You're just, we're trying to find opportunities that are equal so that from whatever disposition you're in, you can, you know, hit a spot, yet moves, you can. [01:00:39] Speaker C: Level the playing field in a bunch of different ways. And we talked about curiosity and persistence as, as two, um, ways to really create more opportunities for yourself. [01:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So tell me, I've had some experience here, and I'm not going to give you my answer. What's it like working with family? Because you guys worked with family even before you started all this. [01:01:00] Speaker A: Would you, what is our experience? [01:01:02] Speaker B: I'll tell you what. Let me ask. [01:01:04] Speaker A: That's different than universal experience. [01:01:05] Speaker B: I'm going to ask your experience, and then I'm also going to ask what you would recommend. And in a, in an honest way, would you recommend people hire friends and family or go into business? And what your experience is. [01:01:15] Speaker C: Do you like ghost peppers? I don't know. Seems kind of hot. [01:01:21] Speaker A: So it has been a bit of a mixed bag with some friends. It's not been a mixed bag with family. I got to work with my dad for 17 years. Been working with Andrew for almost that long, which, by the way, I hope your audience understands. I'm not Andrew's father. I'm actually just his brother. I just want to make that super clear. [01:01:46] Speaker B: I'll make sure I put that in. [01:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Would you put that in the notes? Just have it be a constant, you know, in parentheses. [01:01:52] Speaker C: Not father. [01:01:53] Speaker A: Yeah, not father. We are actual brothers. [01:01:56] Speaker B: Maybe uncle. [01:01:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:01:59] Speaker A: So working with Andrew has been a genuine treat. We disagree. We think incredibly differently. We argue, but we have the same goal in mind. And I'm on Andrew's side all the time, and Andrew's on my side all the time. And that was something, I think that we learned from our dad. Um, now, my, my. So my experience with working with family has been great. My, and I'll tell you why, is because of the. The trust, you break through it, uh, immediately. He never questions when I disagree with him or if I'm mad. He doesn't question why. [01:02:36] Speaker B: He's not an integrity issue. It's a. It's a actual logistics. [01:02:41] Speaker A: I have something that he knows I have something that is actually bothering me, and he's willing to listen to it and vice versa. Now, with friends, I'm now jaded. Actually, I would say a little bit. I'm a little bit cynical because of some of the things that have happened. The first person in a, like I said, 4000 employee company, 200 in a corporate environment, first person was a friend and somebody I trusted. Second person was Andrew. Then my next door neighbor, then my other next door neighbor, then my brother in law. I mean, so there's this pattern. And I didn't care so much about their competence in a particular area. I cared about trusting them. So I put a lot of emphasis on that. And when that trust is violated by those closest to you, for somebody like me, it hurts a lot. And I think on some level, sort of scarred me a little bit, some of the experiences I had. So this is what I would say in terms of advice. I wouldn't go into business with somebody whose trust hasn't been earned and tested. Tested is the important thing. So you can trust people because, you know, you played at the same YMCA or something like that. But some you have to have gone through something difficult with somebody and come out stronger, which we've done a million times. We did with our dad a million times. I've done with my best friends, my longest time friends a million times, and we're stronger because of it. But people fall off all the time, and you don't want them falling off when. When the business is on the line. [01:04:25] Speaker B: And you'll lose the friendship, too. If we go into business, there's a good chance this is going to fall apart. And is that going to ruin a friendship? Sometimes no is the best answer when you proceed with that. Right. Cause, I mean, it sometimes doesn't have to be a trust issue. It could be a material disagreement where you're both trying to accomplish something. But again, if it's a friend, they're going to be a subordinate, and they're not always going to be happy. [01:04:51] Speaker A: That's right. [01:04:51] Speaker B: You guys are at least working at a level. [01:04:53] Speaker C: You know, it's easy to say. I don't think we always say it, but it's easy to say exactly what you just said, tegan, that we're always gonna keep the friendship, um, above anything professional that occurs. Easier said than done. [01:05:05] Speaker A: Totally. [01:05:06] Speaker C: For sure. [01:05:06] Speaker A: Everybody says that. [01:05:07] Speaker C: But I would say the number one way that you do that is you don't keep score. And. And this is why working with family, we have had such a positive experience, is because Alex and I don't keep score. The best marriages don't keep score. The best friendships don't keep score, and brothers don't keep score. When you start keeping score, then there is, by definition, always an imbalance, and then there's resentment, that creep that creeps in over time. And that's why working with family and friends is so disastrous to so many people, because they ignore that primary rule. [01:05:37] Speaker B: And I think a lot of families don't practice that. A lot of marriages don't practice well. [01:05:41] Speaker C: This is why 50% of marriages fail, is because. I mean, there's lots of reasons, but keeping score is a human trait, and if you condemn yourself there, and I don't need to be concerned about. He put in $10 and I put in twelve. We actually were just having this real. [01:05:57] Speaker A: Life, actually put in 13. Yeah, right. [01:05:59] Speaker C: Thanks. Minus one. We do the math here, but we're thinking about partnering with a guy that we've grown up with, who's very talented and very influential, may or may not have been on this show before, and so we're trying to figure out what that looks like. And we just had this conversation that our individual relationships always have to come first, and we're going to outline what that looks like in practice. [01:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that means. That means something. And it means something legally to be people can think, oh, you're being a bit too legalistic on the front end. No, we're going to set the terms so that the expectations are clear. [01:06:36] Speaker B: As much as you can define, as much as you're talking about a lot of intangibles. And when you're talking about a business, a lot of people don't have the higher level view that's true to where decisions are made based on the business, not based on what I want or what you want. And this is the decision. And when you're the final answer, you get a lot of resentment whether you're keeping score or not. In business, I've seen. I also have friends who go into business with only friends. [01:07:02] Speaker C: Right. [01:07:02] Speaker B: But I've also seen them lose friends over some of those ventures. [01:07:05] Speaker C: But what's been your experience? [01:07:08] Speaker B: I would never recommend it, but I also. [01:07:11] Speaker A: Friends or family? I'm sorry to interrupt, but are you answering either? [01:07:14] Speaker B: I have had. I've had both. [01:07:15] Speaker C: And despite your wife being your partner. [01:07:18] Speaker B: Yes. No, honestly, she's. And I say everyone's the exception for different reasons. There's just a different level of drama when you bring that to the workplace. It's also difficult to bring people in that you do trust and say, when you walk through the threshold of the doors here we have a different relationship. And when we walk and we go grab a burger on a Sunday, then we kick each other in the balls. And then when we come in here, we're all about the business. We're not, you know, we're not lovey dovey and whatever this is, this is a focus. This is a point of focus where we need to focus on. [01:07:55] Speaker A: That's a conversation you would have. [01:07:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So not enough. Such a strict way that we can't be relaxed. [01:08:03] Speaker A: Right. [01:08:03] Speaker B: But there's a completely different focus. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be hierarchical or anything like that, but there has to be a discipline in the business that you don't get when you're just kicking each other in the nuts every 5 seconds. [01:08:16] Speaker C: Yep. [01:08:16] Speaker A: Okay. [01:08:16] Speaker B: So. And it's difficult for people to separate professionalism from an everyday life situation. And so. And in a professional environment, depending on how professional it needs to be. [01:08:29] Speaker C: Well, can I make an observation of you, though, because I've known you for long enough, where I think what we're talking about is that we're not a different human being at work than we are at home. And when you try to be, that's when we're setting ourselves up for an imbalance and probably failure. You've been very consistent over many years, and I've done work with you before. Yeah, I think that's what we're talking about, is not being duplicitous. [01:08:53] Speaker B: Well, it's not duplicitous as much as you go into a meeting, you still have a game face. You still have things that you're gonna say, it's that one, and it's the same one he's gonna laugh at. You know, you go into a serious meeting, and it's somebody that you've just met or whatever. Yeah, there is. There is a manner in which you carry yourself. [01:09:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:09:14] Speaker B: And so that's generally what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about, hey, I want you to call me sir when we walk in or whatever, because we don't have egos. In terms of that, I even try to refrain from having much of a hierarchy because people obsess over that, and I don't think it matters a lot until it has to be a specific decision. [01:09:33] Speaker C: Are you saying, tegan, that some people are just aren't up for the stress associated with business? Certainly together, they're not up for that. [01:09:40] Speaker B: Yeah, because I think what they do is when you have a difficult business decision, that you're. That you're arguing over a particular logistic or a topic that needs to be solved, they're carrying emotional baggage that's related to your relationship into that meeting, when that meeting has absolutely nothing to do with what happened last month, and we already swore we'd never do it. This is a different circumstance because this is completely business, and it's difficult for people to separate a personal life and a professional life. [01:10:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe impossible. [01:10:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:10] Speaker A: I mean, in the true sense, we talk about work life balance, and that you're. You really are only just one person. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:17] Speaker A: You can't really separate that. I will say, while you're talking, that I was thinking about is that in any business, no matter how you set it up, no matter how buddy buddy or however you want to act, however you set it up, whatever your personality is as a leader, there's a hierarchy. I mean, there just is. There just is. But guess what? Where else there is in a family? I mean, that's what. That's what kids are relative to parents, and you manage that. And one of the things Andrew knows, and I'll share with you, is that every business I've ever run, it's fairly indistinguishable from how I live my life with my family. [01:10:55] Speaker B: So as a kid, you never changed your language when you spoke to your parents versus when you spoke to your peers at junior high. [01:11:03] Speaker A: So that's a really, really good question. I'm gonna give you a very honest answer. So we were lucky, because our dad encouraged us to say everything that was on our mind. Now, we did have to be respectful, but think about what that taught us. You should be respectful when you talk to your boss. When you manage up a kid going and arguing and making a case for anything that they want or they think to their parent, it should be well thought out, and it should be respectful. And that's managing up. You're managing up when you're managing your parents. And we learned that, and it was encouraged. And I cannot tell you the number of times I started a conversation with my dad where he said, go think about that a little bit more. [01:11:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just a matter of aligning priority, which is, again, that's. That's kind of conceptually what it is. And honestly, I think my wife would say the same thing, too. That even though the family that we've hired are successful at doing it, there's been strife that we wish we didn't have to experience with those family members. She would say the same thing. Now, she and I went through strife in the beginning because starting a business is twenty four seven, and so you end up really paying no attention to the marriage because you're getting calls in the middle of the night, and you're working seven days a week. And so as soon as we drew the 06:00 line and said, unless it's an emergency, you're not allowed to talk about work, it wasn't duplicitous, but it. [01:12:26] Speaker C: You're creating boundaries for you. [01:12:28] Speaker B: What it is is a mindset. It's a mindset of, I'm at work, and so I'm focused on work, and I have a high level picture of what I'm trying to accomplish here. But when, what you accomplish when you're with family is completely different and certainly more grandiose, but it's a different mindset in both environments. [01:12:46] Speaker A: Let me. And I'm not pushing back, because that's. That's your life and that's your structure. [01:12:49] Speaker B: And it works for y'all, and it's backed by science. I mean, wait, no. [01:12:54] Speaker A: So it may be personality, because I will tell you, Carrie and I, my wife and I got to work together when we were both prosecutors, and. And then when we had our business, she was on our board, and we love talking about business, and we love, we love talking about it. That was, that was entertainment now. So. So for us to have drawn a line for us would have been. Would have been artificial. Does that make sense? [01:13:17] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:13:18] Speaker A: But for sure, it works to just sort of say, this is more of a mindset. We're going to be a husband and wife. We're going to talk about other things. [01:13:25] Speaker B: And it's different when you're an employee, too, because it's less strife when, you know, your, your survival depends on this thing succeeding. And if you have. And having somewhat of a yin and yang opinion when you're handling finances versus handling an overall concept of how things need to be run, regardless of finances, is often very productive. When you have those arguments, there are always productive arguments, and we don't argue at all, almost in our relationship, almost ever. So we have debates, but they're never really arguments. Nothing goes off the rails. Yeah, but in, in business, you have to hash it out until something definitive happens. And typically that means compromise. Um, and it's easier to compromise in a marriage than it is in a business because your business's success has to go away, that somebody's predetermined and your marriage is, is. There isn't a. There isn't a option for it to fail. [01:14:27] Speaker C: So what you're talking about, though, is emotional regulation. That's like an underestimated skill that leaders have to bring, because if your wife isn't bringing that, then she's going to bring all that baggage that you're referring to as well. If she can remain calm and stay engaged on the central point. [01:14:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:14:43] Speaker C: With your business, then that's what you need. [01:14:45] Speaker B: But that's how difficult it is when you just grab different people and that you grab a friend that you think the friend is certainly trustworthy. And I've had that situation where the friend comes in and I put him in a position, and then he's, you know, it's a disappointing, uh, you know, performance. And then you speak to him about the expectations, you start tightening the things until they can do it on the right way, and then, you know, things fall apart. And a lot of that is, you know, you have to, you have to reflect on, you know, what parts of those you failed, of course, which is how we all learn to get through business anyway. So I certainly failed some, some areas in there, too, but I hated the fact that it jacked with the friendship. [01:15:23] Speaker C: Yeah. It would have been easier if you didn't know him. [01:15:25] Speaker A: I don't want to. I don't know if we're allowed to disagree with the host? [01:15:29] Speaker B: No. Well, we can edit this out. [01:15:30] Speaker A: We edit this out. Let me, let me ask you a question, science. You don't, you don't find that inherent in any compromise is a bit of disingenuousness? [01:15:44] Speaker B: Absolutely not. How do you think so can you find two people that are going to agree wholeheartedly on every topic? [01:15:50] Speaker A: That's. So you're phrasing the question as if agreeing is the pent ultimate goal. What if it's not? I mean, what if agreement, agreement is not the best thing. Because if you're compromising, I mean, one could argue that if you're compromising, like sort of neither side is being heard or getting what they want. Maybe being heard is more significant. [01:16:16] Speaker B: Usually a compromise, in my experience is with two parties, you know, what's the most important and what is you're willing to concede. So when a compromise is reached, it's usually me saying this isn't worth it to me to take all the way to the top of the hill. And when it's her, you have anybody else? [01:16:35] Speaker C: Alex? [01:16:37] Speaker B: But I mean, again, I mean, we could fight tooth and nail until whatever. If you get two stubborn people together, then they're never going to, they're never going to be happy either. Because if I, if I concede and then we go the wrong direction, there's always going to be resentment. But I'm talking about picking your battles. The things that are most important to me. I can tell you, you know, she's conceded all kinds of stuff that have been mistakes. [01:16:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:16:59] Speaker B: Because they're only at this level of importance to her and vice versa. If I think what she's saying is absolutely incorrect, but it's not a, it's not something that is material to the direction that I feel like, then to honor her, I don't make it difficult. I say, look, I want to be a giver. I mean, that's the whole. [01:17:19] Speaker C: Can I? Welcome to the tcast, by the way, I'll be your host. I just want to talk to you guys for just 1 second. I think compromise is a result of maybe neither person getting exactly what they want, but I think the goal should be collaboration. And that's what you're describing is that if you're collaborating, then you're creating something that may be exactly what I wanted in the beginning, or maybe it's exactly what you wanted in the beginning, but we're working through the process and then the outcome could be compromised. But it also could be something very different. [01:17:49] Speaker A: Maybe it can look like compromise, but I think you brought up a really good point, is that I think a lot of times people think in terms of a fight or disagreement, being, I'm not moving from here, and I'm not moving here because this is all I want. But sometimes when you don't stop, when you don't just settle, you don't just find this middle ground where neither party is happy. When you start looking and investigating what this person is talking about or feeling, sometimes you find yourself on the other side, and then you're not compromising. It may appear to the outside world as a compromise, but you're not. [01:18:23] Speaker B: It is a compromise. It's a complete concedement. [01:18:26] Speaker A: Do you think it. Okay, maybe it's a concession. [01:18:28] Speaker B: Concedement is a new word now. I think we're splitting hairs on the word. [01:18:32] Speaker A: I think it might be right. [01:18:33] Speaker B: I think that's all it is. It's. It's. It is semantics. Cause I think any relationship, whether it be working or especially a marital relationship, should be about giving, which is to your point, when you kept saying, um, you know, people keep score, you know, but your whole point should be, I'm constantly looking for something I can do to serve her. [01:18:53] Speaker A: That's right. [01:18:53] Speaker B: And then just inherently, the. The natural inclination of her is to reciprocate. And we still don't keep score. If we did, I don't know. I don't know what, but I'm always looking for something that I can do. [01:19:04] Speaker C: You know, that's the main thing. [01:19:06] Speaker B: So. And that's kind of. That's kind of the thing that you want to bring into the company. [01:19:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:19:10] Speaker B: So that is a beautiful thing that we have in the company. It's just when you don't have a personality that reciprocates that, and it's a friend or something that you're in a business with, you have to make that cut, too. If it's not working and you say, here are the expectations, and keep drilling in the expectations and conceding and working with in every way that you can with the business in mind and not your relationship, because you have to have the business in mind, then that's a different level of category than if you're having an argument as a friend and have something to solve. Because, again, I'm more apt to concede something that's not as important to me to keep the friendship. And I know it's a give and take, but in a business, you have an objective that if you're convinced that he's going to take the thing down. You can't concede that. [01:19:56] Speaker A: No. Right. [01:19:56] Speaker B: You know, and then you got to say bye. When you say bye. You're saying bye to two people now. [01:20:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when you talk about collaboration, it's really just one thing. It's. You're paying attention. You're paying attention to your. To your spouse. And, I mean, this is fairly well known now, but, like, why do people leave companies? What's the number one reason that people leave companies? They leave their boss. They're giving up on their boss. And many times it's because their boss has not paid attention to them. And there's a famous study that it's 100 years old now, but it's created an effect called the Hawthorne effect. And this study was trying to increase productivity on the shop floor. So they experimented with all sorts of stuff. Let's turn the lights differently. Let's do this. Let's increase the speed over here. Let's do this. And really what they found was that productivity was increased because people were paying attention to the employees and nothing to do with the aesthetic at all, any of the arrangements or variables that they were messing with. And what's funny is, 100 years later, it's the same exact thing. Employees feel engaged when their bosses are paying attention to them, and they leave when they don't, when they're apathetic and neutral, and there's negative attention as well. And that's another variable, for sure. Yeah. [01:21:11] Speaker B: A bad boss can ruin any great job. [01:21:14] Speaker C: Absolutely, yes. Which is. That's your number one imperative, is to work on who you are, not just what you do. [01:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you guys have been fantastic. Man, this is fun. [01:21:23] Speaker A: Man. [01:21:23] Speaker B: Did I miss something? [01:21:25] Speaker A: What's that? [01:21:25] Speaker B: Did I miss something? [01:21:26] Speaker C: If there is the next time, I would like to dive into. I think one of the things that we do at Prax, that's the most important, and it's underestimated in our industries, and that's emotional regulation and how unbelievably important that is for engagement and for decision making and influencing change and connection in your organization. And it's one of the most, you know, culture is, like, the most powerful thing in a business that you can't see. And you create that by starting with yourself, and that's being able to manage your reg and regulate yourself. [01:21:57] Speaker B: You're talking about just being able to check yourself in certain circumstances much more. [01:22:02] Speaker C: Yes, I would say yes would be an example. Yes, absolutely. So if there is the next time, I would love to spend more time on that and how that integrates from the top down to the bottom in organizations and creates successful organizations or failure. [01:22:16] Speaker B: We can talk about it. Go ahead, shoot. [01:22:18] Speaker C: Well, I would say the first thing that's misunderstood is the difference between emotions and feelings, and they're not the same thing. So the feelings are your response to your emotion. So what's not well known is when what we call emotion. And there's eight universal emotions. Anger, sadness, fear, disgust, shame. Those are the first five. Those are survival emotions. The other two are attachment emotions, love and joy. And then there's the last one. The 8th one is called the potentiator. It's surprise. So, which means surprise can turn into fear, surprise can turn into joy. Those are eight universal emotions. So emotions are nothing more than a physical reaction in your body. Feelings are what you concluded about your emotion. So let's just create, like, a fake scenario, right? [01:23:01] Speaker B: Intuitively, though, not consciously. [01:23:03] Speaker C: Or are you saying unconsciously? So, if Tegan and I are running a project, let's say we've run a project for the last month, and we're about to present results to our boss, and our boss is Alex. This is a real scenario, by the way. I'm just changing the names to protect the innocent. So we show up at the meeting, and then about halfway through the meeting, you say, well, I just don't think this project was run that well. Well, what that feels like to me is, Andrew didn't run this project really that well. So I start to become dysregulated, and I become angry. So let's just break this down. There's four things that are happening. Number one is there's what's called the stimulus. You said something, and then I got emotionally dysregulated. I got angry. The second thing that happens in one 16th of a second, I heard something. Everything was neutral. And then I heard something, and I go, I don't like that. I don't like what he just said. I'm about to be thrown under the bus. [01:23:55] Speaker B: You were surprised, too? [01:23:56] Speaker C: I was surprised, and then it turned and turned into anger. So all that is is an emotional reaction. My palms are starting to swing. Sweat. There's increased heart rate, perspiration, clenched fist, clenched jaw. These are all the things that people feel varying degrees when they're angry, and that's a physiological response. So, number one is stimulation. Number two is a physiological response. Number three is what's called cognitive gating. So I'm appraising now that emotion. So why did I start thinking and processing? Why did Tegan say that he set me up two weeks ago. He was saying, we're a team. Everything's going great. We're going to crush this meeting with Alex. And then halfway through, he's throwing me under the bus. And I don't like that. I don't like that. So I'm processed. I'm appraising the situation. Then the last thing is response coherence. Fancy way of saying action. So now I'm in fight or flight. So I have to decide. My sympathetic nervous system has been activated. I have to decide if I'm going to fight for myself in this thing, because Alex is now looking at me in favor of an audience. I've got an audience, you know, or I shut down, which some people do do as well. The best leaders add a step, and the step is, after cognitive gaining and appraisal, we do what's called a reappraisal. So now I'm going to calm my nervous system. I can do this. The best leaders do this. I'm going to take a deep breath, and I'm literally calming my physical symptoms. And then I'm getting my executive functions back online, and I'm deciding how I want to act rather than just deterministically just fighting or fleeing in this scenario. So there are countless examples every single day when a leader is faced with those types of choices, because we're emotional beings. So the people that can emotionally regulate and decide that, I'm going to think about how I'm going to respond rather than just react. The scenario I just provided is my old boss, who is now the chief medical officer of a very large organization. He did that in a board meeting. He was me and a guy threw him under the bus. He was later promoted, not for any sort of competence, because the CEO said, I really liked the way you handled that scenario. You were really under pressure, and it was very uncomfortable for you. Among other things, he was very, very competent, but he displayed emotional regulation in front of the boss, who appreciated that. I would say that's very, very underestimated skill, um, in business, I appreciate that. [01:26:17] Speaker B: And one other place where it really applies is in law enforcement. When you talked about the sympathetic nervous system, engaging and all that kind of stuff, then you go into, you go into a violent confrontation or a shooting or something like that, you're going to get all of the audio exclusion and tunnel vision, everything else. But there are ways to combat that, and the first is to know what's there. [01:26:40] Speaker C: That's right. You got to acknowledge it first. [01:26:41] Speaker B: Acknowledge it. It's there. Name it. [01:26:42] Speaker C: To tame it, as they say. [01:26:43] Speaker B: So you control your breathing. You know what to do, and that helps you to, again, come back to both a conscious thought process and a intuitive process that falls back on your training because you're then allowed not to emotionally regulate. And that's where you get a lot of cops that offend because they get all pissed off and they take it personally and everything else, and then they're in a position of authority, and then they take it too far, as opposed to regulating that so that they actually. [01:27:12] Speaker C: Weren'T in a position to reappraise. If they could have done what's called a reappraisal, then they would have been able to think through what they're going to do next, and then their response coherence would have been more optimal. That's a great example. Tegan, I want to say response. [01:27:27] Speaker B: When you were saying it, it was just the first thing I could think of. I kept imagining, wow, that's not just leadership, but this is life and death because of the SNS activation and the fact that you're saying control it. I completely agree with that. [01:27:39] Speaker C: Yeah. And you can think about this when you're in a tense situation with a spouse or a child. The same thing applies. We want to be our best self in that moment, and we can't if we're using emotions to guide us rather than just making them emotional tells. I like to say that emotions are very valuable. They're telling us something, but they shouldn't guide our decision. Next, we should get the thing that separates us from the animals, which is our prefrontal cortex in front, our ability to think and plan and reason. [01:28:10] Speaker B: Russian. Yeah, that. [01:28:11] Speaker C: That's exactly right. So let's. Let's use our best brain for those situations when. When we. When, you know, when we really need it. [01:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that was a terrible answer. [01:28:21] Speaker C: What? [01:28:22] Speaker B: No, I'm just kidding. Just going to see how you react. [01:28:24] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no. Yeah. Well, tell me more about that. [01:28:29] Speaker B: But, man, you guys been insightful, and I appreciate spending time, and thanks for having us, Steven. I know that people will learn from the experiences you guys have shared, so let's get it on. [01:28:39] Speaker C: All right. [01:28:41] Speaker B: What's it take? What you gonna do? What you gonna do? Success around the same grade rules a confident thing to make you do make you do what they want, what they want faithful, a diplomatic basis the one to see it through don't let those figures take you off your game adjust a, let em lose just sit here in the front seat baby, ain't that sweet? Take a little honey from the money bee but don't pay the fool potion I'm missing beast at the end of the game a slow roll see the truth of soul motion never found a 63 like fire finding more shine of truth between blurry line if you gonna. [01:29:40] Speaker C: Call on me now.