Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Children are the ones who are going to get us over this hump, as I call it. These are their friends. They're not bothered by what color their skin is.
They fuss and fight and do all the things kids do, but it has absolutely nothing to do with whether they are black or mexican or whatever.
I'm looking forward to the day, and I'm hoping that I'm still around when we are all Americans, not black Americans or white Americans or Irish Americans or whatever. We are Americans. We built this country, you know, and people need to know that.
And I bet you I'm gonna keep on walking and talking and somebody's gonna listen.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: My next guest has accomplished just a few things in her short 97 year life. When she was twelve, angry whites burned her home down because they did not want blacks moving into their neighborhood. She kept her composure, focus, and earned a master's degree in education from North Texas State University.
Go, fellow mean Green Eagle. She then launched a plight to make Juneteenth a national holiday, as opposed to a simple celebratory time for blacks only. Now it becomes something that everyone gets together and discusses the true meaning of.
She's been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. She was at the White House, awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom. She's an author.
She's now received her honorary doctorate degree from SMU. And now I'm fortunate enough to call her a friend. She is here on the tcast along with her granddaughter, who now heads up the Juneteenth foundation. Please help me in welcoming to the t cast Miss Opalee and Miss Dionne Sims. You brought up 199 and Henderson. So was that back when you're talking about stealing horses was the worst thing you could ever do here or what?
You remember when 199, when you were.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: Talking about the shoot em up gangster clubbing on Jacksboro Highway?
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Jacksboro highway, yeah. Yeah, I worked out there, boy, and there was some rough fellows. Ooh. I mean, there was one who left. He leave Fort Worth and go to Dallas, but he was a stone gangster, man. And I worked for a letter a lady, and she was heir to.
[00:03:06] Speaker C: You.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Know, her father had the beer company or something like that. Her name was Al Rose Lesage. I remember that. And Al Rose, bless her heart, had sent her daughter to Europe because polio was raging. She didn't want the kid to catch it.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: And she caught it in Europe no year before. The mother caught it.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Oh, the mother caught it.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: The mother caught it. So she had this house with the only swimming pool, warm swimming pool and place people would come from everywhere to get in that pool, you know, but she had some friends, and they, you know, were unsavory.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: They didn't play.
So. And I would love to compare and contrast how the culture and the ability for us to come to a place where we recognize the inequality and the things we do. And coming from an era where you are, I can't even imagine, because you had an incident that we've all heard about when you were, what, twelve?
Was that directed at your family, or was it random?
[00:04:22] Speaker A: No, it was directed at the family. They didn't want us to move in the neighborhood, and it was just a few blocks from where other blacks lived. You know, it wasn't on the opposite side of town, and it wasn't a rich neighborhood, you know, and my parents bought that house with a.
And it was. My mom had it fixed up so nice.
And Abedon, on the 19 June, they gathered some 500 of them, and the police were there, did absolutely nothing.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the police were probably involved at that point, right?
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
And anyway, when my dad came home and he came home with a gun, talked to some of them there, and they told him if he busted a cap, they'd let that mob have us.
So our parents and us to friends several blocks away, and they left under cover of a darkness. Those people tore that place apart, drug the furniture out and burned it. They did despicable things, but our parents never, ever discussed it with us. Never. I had two younger brothers.
I guess we had to draw our own conclusion.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it was a pretty obvious conclusion, I'm sure you were hearing.
So how did you recover from that?
[00:05:55] Speaker A: I don't know that I had to recover. I just buried it. I never thought about it until Bud Kinsey asked me about it, and I was 100 years old.
[00:06:10] Speaker C: That was 2015, when Juneteenth turned 150 or had the 150th anniversary. Miss Opal had petitioned the Texas legislature to commissioned a Juneteenth commemorative plate. And we had asked Bud to help us let folks know it was out. And so he started doing his journalistic thing, right? And so he dug and dug, and he found this Associated Press story. And he called me and he said, dion is Miss Opal's dad named Otis Flake? And I said, yeah. He says, I found this story about, say, well, she told us, you know, her house burned, you know, when she was, you know, young. But, you know, that's kind of all we ever knew. And says, I'm gonna send this to you, and you tell me if this is her family and she said, yeah. She says, I didn't remember it happening on Juneteenth, which is just more than.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: Ironic at this point. I mean, that wasn't selected on purpose. Cause they weren't smart enough to know.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: But I think the.
It may have actually been because of Juneteenth because it was celebrated here in Fort Worth in folks backyards and stuff. And so Texas had been knowing about Juneteenth, and I think.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: I don't think it had a thing to do with Juneteenth. Absolutely nothing. They were just irate that we infiltrated their territory. We were supposed to know better. Hey, so was the dude that sold the house to my.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: We don't know what happened to him, do we?
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah, dude.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: They'd only been there four days. They'd only been there four days.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Oh, man. Yeah. Well, that's why I think it would be pretty coincidental, then. That does seem like the timing was all about the fact that you were even there at all, so that's extreme. And we would think that you can't even fathom that happening. But my perception of how racism has progressed through the years, and this is my ignorant, white, sympathetic self here saying, I see that it's a lot more discreet and hidden now than it used to be. It used to be so overt and blatant, and it made everyone's lives miserable. And then everyone became so hyper aware of what to say and not to say. But a lot of the people haven't changed the way they think. Is that an impression that you share?
[00:08:39] Speaker C: Well, and I think it's. It ebbs and flows. So the pendulum swung one way during her time, and now, even 100, almost 100 years later, it's come back to being that same way.
And so what used to be, when I was growing up, overt and sub, you know, kind of under the covers, you felt it, but it wasn't in your face, right? I saw the pendulum swinging back towards this in your face, kind of direct attack.
Racism and prejudice and profiling, and now it's full blown. And so when I started our youth program called team core explosion in 94 and starting the nonprofit in 2000, it was because I could feel that pendulum swinging back. But 25 years later, I would not have thought that we'd be so divided as a country and that we're rolling back things that we had worked to achieve some level of equality. But now civility, I mean, it's even. Not even racial. It's just civil ness is gone. Right? And so it's weird that that pendulum, that we thought we were getting away from has come back to being this full frontal as she experienced it.
[00:10:05] Speaker B: So you think it's the politicism and wokeness and all that stuff that has just made people angry again, and they've just resorted back to leveraging race as something that they're having some contention over.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: I just think it's molded.
It was there all the time. It just never seemed to leave. It hasn't left. That's all.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: So what do you think? I mean, the juneteenth accomplishments that you have accomplished are significant. And now, how much of that do you think will actually be able to spread outside of the black communities to where we can ally different races and different communities, to where we all will be able to celebrate such a thing?
[00:10:52] Speaker A: I'm trying to do my part. I just move all around us often as I can.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: Yes, ma'am.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: To make people aware that we are one people, you know, and I keep saying over and over again, make yourself a committee of one to change somebody's mind. We know people who aren't on the same page we own, so let's change their minds now. It's not going to happen in a day. You're going to have to work at it. But if people can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love, and I figure it's our responsibility to do that.
[00:11:28] Speaker C: I think what's really neat about Juneteenth and the timing at a point where our nation is so divided, it becomes a springboard for real dialogue and conversation.
They had been working for better than 20 years for making Juneteenth a national holiday, the National Juneteenth Observance foundation that she was a part of and is a board member of, matter of fact, the oldest living board member now.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Surprise.
[00:12:00] Speaker C: But the recognition of a day on the calendar that the nation could then have real conversations about where we are, you know, where we've come from, the history without the shame and blame. Right. That comes with having real dialogue. Now that you have it on the calendar, it opens us up to, why do we need to celebrate the freedom and then freedom from what? So that allows you to have those conversations, and then the ripple effect of what we were free from that is still pervasive today.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: Excellent.
[00:12:39] Speaker C: And so that's what I'm really hoping that the national implication of the holiday brings forth, is the ability to talk about the history, good, bad, and ugly. Right. And not whitewashing and not brushing it under the rug and saying, it didn't happen. No, it did. And it's still affecting us today.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Right. Or minimizing what it was.
[00:13:00] Speaker C: Or minimizing what it was? And so I think that if I were to think about what is the legacy of Juneteenth? You know, how is it going to just be a day off? No, we need to use it as a temperature check. Need to use it as. Are we any more free from making the holiday in 2021, in 2026, and it's five years, you know, you know, 31, ten years. But we have to do that by understanding what KPI's we're going to measure. Are we looking at the number of laws that are on the books today that affect, and have any of those rolled back? Are we looking at the number of people that applied for commercial loans or business loans and were turned down before, or has that number moved more positively? What are the things we're going to use as measurements to see if the national holiday has had any effect on how we treat people. Right. So, I mean, it's more than a festival. It's more than just, you know, a day off.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's why I think that's a great way to be inclusive about the goal, the ultimate goal, because that's what you want to do, is commune with people that are unaware or disinterested, because they feel like it doesn't mean anything to them personally. But it should.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: And I really think that as a people, we can change.
I think over the years, we have in some respects. So why not this?
[00:14:29] Speaker B: How much change have you seen in the extraordinary number of years and the.
I mean, the technological changes and the generations that have developed over the years? It has to be pretty extraordinary to be able to witness that. What do you.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: I think I've got tunnel vision.
I'm on a straight path to see that everybody knows about Juneteenth and that it's just not a festival. And so the people I come in contact with are as supportive as all get out.
I can't judge about the others. Cause I don't see them. I don't come in contact with them.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: How can we come in contact with them?
Maybe I should ask this. You're an educator by trade, so compare what you experienced when you were teaching school versus what your vision is and what you teach in schools related to Juneteenth. What would you like to see, or even not even Juneteenth, just anything in general about educating people about cultures, native american or african american, whatever.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: Well, what I'm seeing and hearing is that the youngsters are mixed. You know, the classrooms have all nationalities in them these days. So the children are the ones who are going to get us over this hump, as I call it. These are their friends. They're not bothered by what color their skin is.
They fuss and fight and do all the things kids do, but it has absolutely nothing to do with whether they are black or Mexican or whatever.
I'm looking forward to the day, and I'm hoping that I'm still around when we are all Americans, not black Americans or white Americans or Irish Americans or whatever. We are Americans. We built this country, you know, and people need to know that.
And I bet you I'm gonna keep on walking and talking, and somebody's gonna listen.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah, well, we're listening, and I'm trying to help you share the message. I'm very appreciative of what you guys have accomplished.
[00:17:02] Speaker C: Kind of the things with the schools, especially here in Texas and several red states, the handcuffing teachers to talk about history or even what's happening today.
And, like, we in Texas can talk about Juneteenth because it's a part of our Teks programming to talk about Texas history. And Juneteenth is a Texas holiday, originally made a holiday in 1980. So they can't take that away because it's been a part of our curriculum as a state. But when they talk, say that you can't talk about current events, things that are happening today. When you can't talk about Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech, when you can't talk about those things that were actually listed in the new bill that was put forth, it says, well, then I can't talk about what we've experienced that led up to today. And so you're handcuffing teachers and reprimanding them or reprimanding them for talking about history. What does a history teacher to do? Right.
And so when you look at what teachers were able to do before, when my grandmother was a teacher, all right, to what? And it was about making well rounded individuals. All right, making sure that they had a good view of the world and the state and the city in which they lived in. And now it's about, it seems, just making sure they can add and subtract. Right.
But that's not the person that has to go out and be amongst a diverse working community. So you've got to understand the people in which you're going to be. You're preparing them to work with and for companies because you want them to be the first person to help a company stay afloat. Right. And so. But we're not teaching the humanness of education.
And so I think that becomes a bottleneck for young people, because if they are only around people that they know and they don't know how to greet someone, just smile at someone, we're short changing them on the social. They'll be smart as a whip, but they won't have any social interaction and know how to deal with people. And so that's a part of our education system, too. We know that it's about the numbers and the reading, but you go to school for social intervention. If somebody was always just brought up this way and they never knew how other people lived, then they can't be empathetic to that situation.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: You see a lot of those sheltered kids hit college and go nuts.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: Go nuts, right.
But I think that one of the things that I always say is, I don't need your sympathy. I need your empathy. And that's what we're hoping. Juneteenth allows folks to be able to find themselves. In the Juneteenth story, yes, there was slavery. Yes, there was a faction, a group that put the hands on the neck of another race. But aside from that, there were those that were part of the abolitionist movement, who wanted people to be free because it was the humane and right thing to do. So I think we have to get back to the human factor of who we are. Like she said, we're all one people. And once we can see people as people and not a race, then it's all about making sure the human race is able to be successful. And I think that that would help, but that comes with changing a heart and a mind, and which is why her being a committee of one is so important.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: And it's interesting, too, because a lot of people would argue that by trying to make us all one, that actually having a discussion about race and digging into the past in order to have empathy, that we're still making race a poignant part of the conversation, which we understand is important, but it's sort of a conundrum. So what is it that can help people understand the plight and at the same time, take it forward without saying there's some kind of demand on what happens going forward? Is there?
[00:21:34] Speaker A: I don't know the answer.
I just know that people who are working in the same environment, people whose children go to the same school, you've got to come in contact with each other. You've got to know that, hey, I like the same clothing or the same.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Foods and something in common.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. And I really believe that it's going to eventually happen, that we're going to accept the fact that we are one people, and I want our nation to be the one to do it so that the others will see and emulate, you know.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And I love that because that's really the premise of what we do here in this show anyway, is to profile the commonalities that we have. And there's a history with white supremacy also. So even understanding that doesn't mean you have to carry it forward. You have to understand it to recognize how bad it was in order to go forward with the right amount of context when you're dealing with people in different cultures and things like that. So.
[00:22:56] Speaker C: Well, the thing with community, it's a common unity. Right. And when you can acknowledge, I think that's one of the hardest things, is to acknowledge you're wrong. But in any twelve step program, any of the anonymous sisters, the first one is to acknowledge that there was a problem. I had a problem, and this is what that problem was. Now I'm working to better myself through it so that it doesn't, you know, cripple me. But I acknowledged that there was a problem. And a lot of people used to talk about reparations.
And, you know, what do you think about reparations? And before we had the holiday, I would always say, before you can try to repair something, you have to understand that it was broken. And so. And that's one of the things that you had to do. So Juneteenth was the acknowledgement of the fact that there was something broken. So now we have a point from which to seek repair. But, you know, when they were trying to have the cart before the horse, you know, we weren't getting anywhere. Now that we can. Now what reparations looks like totally different subject. But now we can say that there was something that needed to be repaired. And so what was that? It was slavery. It was the impact of slavery. It was the impact on the mental condition that the Willie lynch letters, you know, indoctrinated, you know, systemic racism that.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: Carries through today, that ripple effect. People will still deny.
[00:24:30] Speaker C: Well, but you can't.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Now, I know, my point, too, is I think it's beautiful that you're painting it in this light, because, again, that's been part of my issue, too. When you want to discuss systemic racism, half the people you talk to won't acknowledge that it still exists. I'm like, okay, well, then let's. How do you talk about it then? You know. Cause then it's just some kind of debate. It's not a debate. It's about moving from the point in which it exists and figuring out how to make it better. So I really appreciate that point. That's a great point about just launching a brand new conversation. Who were some of the people that impacted you through. Through the years, particularly when you were young? Who were some of the people that impacted or motivated you when you were really young to put you on the path that you went as an activist in high school?
[00:25:16] Speaker A: I am Terrell High School. The teachers were people that nurtured us. You would have thought we belonged to them. That I remember Hazel Harvey piece, who was the dean of girls at Im Tarot, and she had gone to some school in New York, you know, ivory league, come back to Texas to teach. But they imparted to us that we were as good or better than anybody else. We weren't supposed to hang our heads. We were to walk tall and be. If we were in company with others.
It was our responsibility to act like and show that, hey, I belong on this earth just like you.
And they put that into us.
I left there knowing that when I went to north Texas state, hey, I was in class with whites. I made friends with them. And I've just never had the sense that it's a you and a me, and we are not so different. It's just not part of my DNA.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: You just kind of ignored the fact that there. That it existed and then took on the people that accepted you. Yeah, that's an amazing sense of confidence. And that's what we're looking for in the education system now. Is that kind of the point I was getting, too, is that now it's a lot more difficult to teach basic social skills and things because we're hamstring a lot of the teachers. Or do you still see the education system getting better?
[00:27:20] Speaker A: So. Hope so. Gee.
[00:27:24] Speaker C: I think the education system has to look outside of the school, all right? And parents have to take that ownership of, again, community. So we still have other things that affect young people. We have them in extracurricular activities. You have them in their church that they're connected to, and then there's enrichment programs, all right? That we are available, that we just need to make sure our young people get to them. So if one door shuts, another one is open. We just have to be about finding those opportunities. Like, we have your voice unleashed. As a part of our Juneteenth as a part of our Juneteenth programming, we celebrate Juneteenth all month along here in Fort Worth. Right. We start with a breakfast of prayer, and we have the Miss Juneteenth pageant. And then your voice unleashed happens this year to be at trimble tech, and it's a free two week workshop where kids are going to have vocational training. They get to choose one of five vocational tracks. They'll do lunch, and then they'll do one of five fine arts, choir, dance, mime, drama.
And at the end, they'll be a part of Miss Opal's fen reunion festival at Panther island as a part of the concert. But what's neat about it, though, it's about bringing all the kids together and giving them exposure to other people. Yes, they go to school together, but sometimes we stay in our cliques.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:28:56] Speaker C: Yeah, you stay in your cliques. Right. So this is maybe going to have kids from all over the city coming together from different schools and even different cultural backgrounds and purposely intentionally putting music, which is a common divider.
Not divider, but a common unifier, and having different clinicians that teach them different styles and songs. All right. And same with the dance and the mime and the visual art, so that they can see a greater community and develop unity and understanding. Because when they leave here, when they get older, they might remember having the conversations about it.
[00:29:36] Speaker B: They certainly will. Yeah.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: All right, so it's about folks finding other opportunities because when they can't talk about it in school, they still need to talk about it. You still have to find ways of shepherding them and nurturing them. So as a parent, it comes back to you to make sure that your kid has an experience and experiences other things so that they are well rounded. And that doesn't mean that you get to share. I mean, shield them from the bad stuff.
They can experience it. But when they come home, talk to them about it.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Right. You're encouraging them to interact and ask questions and engage. At what age are the kids that you're talking about?
[00:30:17] Speaker C: 13 and 19. Our program is for the teenagers, 13 and 19. Perfect. But it's really about giving them exposure. That is the key word to having a well rounded person is exposing them. And when they come to you and ask you questions, the question is, what are you giving them? Because like she said, if people can be taught to hate, that means that they got that from their parents. They saw that acted out in their home. But then when they got around other people, you know, in the fifties and sixties, they like, well, that's not what they're like. They didn't have tails like y'all said that they were gonna have, you know. Right. Because they experienced it. They were exposed, and they got to make their own decisions about people in the fifties and sixties. So when integration happened, you know, they got to see. They got exposed to African Americans, or african american children got exposed to white. They weren't all blue eyed devils. Oh, my God. You know, but that was what was taught to them in their home.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:15] Speaker C: Right. So it really comes back to the home. The home has to take a place that teaches something more than the hatred. That was what grandpa or grandma or.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: Great granddad knew, starting early, so that the next generation will produce such a thing. And we've had a guest on here, too, that talked about being a part of integration, and he was completely unaware that that's what it was, because when you get integrated at a certain age, you may not even know what's happening. And yet we still see profiles of all these kids who are going in and needing protection and everything. What was that experience like for you teaching at the time of.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I was.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: What were your thoughts on integration in general and how it happened?
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Listen, you don't have thoughts on integration. You just do what you're told. And so your class is integrated, and you love those kids as much as the ones you had before. Hey, no big deal.
It just wasn't something that you dwelt on.
[00:32:15] Speaker B: Were there issues, violence, protests, anything like that at the beginning? Did you experience any of that?
[00:32:21] Speaker A: I didn't know.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: Oh, that's fishing.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: Our school, I guess.
I don't even know that there was any of that in the Fort Worth public schools. I didn't hear about it.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: So take the community, narrow it down. I'd love to get a little glimpse into what your family gatherings are like, because you guys are putting all kinds of wonderful stuff out. I would love to know. What kind of conversations. Is it like another interview time? Is it story time? What's it like at the Thanksgiving table at the Lee household?
[00:32:58] Speaker A: I don't know where to begin.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Anywhere you want.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Okay. You need to know. My grandfather.
Short, stocky, big voice when he spoke, ef Hutton had to listen, but he was jovial, too. And everybody loved Reverend brothers. He was z brought us. His name was Zachara, and the father of 19 children, three sets of twins. My grandma had. Yeah, my mom was one of them. She wasn't a twin, but she had a brother, and they were both born in April. Everybody thought they were twins, but he ruled with an iron hand, and they had a 40 acre farm. We got to go there in the summertime. Oh, man. When I went back to school, I was ahead of my class because they'd sent us to school. We were too little to work.
But there were, you know, a table this long, longer benches on either side.
You had breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and there were prayers before each meal, and you better be on time.
Don't you miss a meal.
And he could.
So here's his coffee, and it's really nothing but milk and sugar. And if it's not just the right temperature, he. Oh, he'd raise sand. He never cursed.
His thing was dog's foot on the luck.
Oh, and people would be jumping to get papa's coffee. Gesso and my grandmother would look at him and say, Reverend Broadus, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
She'd reprimand him.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: We knew, runs the house.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, I tell you.
And we look forward to going to Arkansas in the summer, you know, but he. And still in us.
I know.
Everybody had to help everybody else, and that's just not family.
I remember hearing about a lady in the community who didn't have any place to stay.
Her grandparents put a sheet across their room so that she could stay there and have some privacy. And when my mom married and moved to Texarkana, he'd send people to her, help this one get on her feet.
You had to nurture that. So it's in your DNA. You got to help.
[00:35:59] Speaker C: What's neat about the broadest side of the family from those 19 kids?
We have a big picture that's in my grandmother's house. It's a tree. So most folks have a family tree. Well, this is a portrait of all 19 people and their branch. And so it's really neat. So when we have, every three years, we have a family reunion, and so we move it across the country.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: I'm gonna drop a mic in that thing.
[00:36:24] Speaker C: Okay. All right. And so you tell. When you introduce yourself, you introduce yourself by your name and what branch you're from of the original 19. And that way, you know your cousins not just by their name, but what part of the lineage they're in. And so that's a history thing that we do. And then there's a game to see if you can name the branches that everybody.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: That gets harder after generations, I'm sure.
[00:36:52] Speaker C: And so. But we always have a family worship service. We have a family picnic. We have family game day.
And then there's the business meeting. Right. That we have as a family to vote on the family president. Right. So we actually have a. Yes, we do.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: And the land that you still have.
[00:37:13] Speaker C: Right.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: What are you gonna do with it?
[00:37:15] Speaker C: Okay. And so in Arkansas, where the Harrison Chapel was the church that grandpa brought us pastored. And so we now own that land and we're trying to make it a park in that community. So again, as a family, when you talk about, what does it sound like? It's a bunch of stories. It's a bunch of stories about, you know, her grandparents and the old. She's the oldest living of the 19 children's kids. My grandmother is. She's the oldest one. And her brother, I think, is Uncle Hugh is the second oldest of the original 19. But to know the spider web of families that have come off of all of the branches and when we get together, it's about knowing that you're Aunt Neely's son or your uncle ht's son or uncle, you know, and or grandson or great grandson, you know, the importance of family and what that means. And so it's a neat part being a brought us.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: That's fascinating. There's so many. It seems like as generations progress, a lot of those family gatherings fall off when you lose a matriarch or a patriarch, you stop having certain gatherings and certain family.
[00:38:38] Speaker C: And I don't think that's going to happen with the broadest. Because we have too much business. Well, because we have been instilled that you stay together and you pray together.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: Family matters.
[00:38:51] Speaker C: Family matters.
[00:38:52] Speaker A: Indeed. Indeed. Yeah. You know, I've been living alone since I lost my husband and that's been 20 years ago again. But, hey, yeah, okay, here I've got this young couple with two small children coming from, I think, Las Vegas. Hey. And they Texas. They got here, turned in the rent car and called it Opal. So they're still with me, except I found them a house.
[00:39:24] Speaker B: Oh, praise the Lord.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: But when they got there, I already had a lady who was a friend of mine staying with me. It's been right lively over there.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: You got a hotel obal over there?
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:38] Speaker B: So was this so broadus wife? Was she the one born into slavery? Don't you have his mother? His mother? Oh, great great grandmother. Did you ever meet her?
[00:39:51] Speaker A: No.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: Never met her.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: No.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: Do you hear stories about that? It seems like the closer you are, the more accurate those stories are. Right?
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. But then at 97, I don't remember my own name some days.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: Oh, please, you can't fool me. You're too witty for that. I'll forget more things than you?
[00:40:13] Speaker A: No. But I don't have the stories to tell. And I keep telling my family that they should be written.
I write letters to them, my great big, beautiful family, and I tell them all the things I'm doing and wish they were here for this or come on down for that.
And so I hear from them, and when we go visit, the doors are open to us. We don't have any problem, you know?
So I'm a happy camper, man.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: That's awesome. And I think she's blessed to have Miss Dionne come in and bring you into a technological age, right, where you're talking in front of mics and doing all this stuff and there's no more old school promotion, is there?
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And I belong to a grandma's club, and so I have to tell the grandmas where I've been and what I've done and take them, and we go places together and do things. Hey, we not gonna sit and rock and wait for the Lord to come and get us. I think he gonna have to catch me anyway.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: Well, and I think that's one of the neat points, too, about her humanitarianism, right. She doesn't want her peer group to be left behind. And so I remember when we got a grant for ten IBM computers and we started teaching. Teaching, and she had me teach since it is my vocation. We had a computer school, and the people in the computer school were her peers. And so teaching senior citizens the double click. Right. And then also. Then moving over to laptops and telephones, right. Because that was the advent of the smartphone coming in and so that they could be connected to their family.
But her thing is, just because we're old, don't put us out to pasture. And I think that's one of the things that, as you talk about coming together and understanding where we've been and where we're going, you can't leave all of the experiences of our elders to. Well, that was the old thing. That was old school for sure. Okay.
It's about enveloping them and helping them to come forward with you so that you don't make the mistakes that they did. Right. And so I really love that about my grandmother. She doesn't let her friends just bide by, you know, time and that kind of thing. She pulls them into what she's doing, invites them. They took a bus. When she got her picture put in the Senate, you know, she rented a bus so that they could go and experience that with her. Right. So I think that if we can acknowledge that our seniors still have so much more to give. Listen to their stories, record their stories that we are not losing history. And that's the important part. It's preserving that history, be it oral stories or documented and writing them that allow us to. To see where we're going. Right.
But acknowledging where we've come from. And I think that that's gonna be a part of this reconciliation and healing that needs to take place, is understanding and hearing, and then that's where that empathy can come into it, because I heard Miss Opal's story about her house. All right? And what that must have felt like.
And a couple of people have approached us and let us know that their relative was a part of that mob. They heard about it, and they said they were sorry, but wouldn't have done that if they had never heard her story. Right, but they remembered hearing about it.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: And there's your empathy. I mean, now they.
[00:44:13] Speaker C: Okay, now they've put two and two together and said, my family was a part of, you know, pushing your family out of the neighborhood. And I. And we. He wrote it out. He said, I wanted to make sure that I apologized for that.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: That's amazing.
[00:44:27] Speaker C: You know what I'm saying? So it comes full circle. We don't understand the people that we touch, but when we keep everything to ourselves, which is why we're so making Juneteenth more inclusive, not to give away the holiday, but to invite folks to the holiday, because the more you know about me, then when you're in the boardrooms and you're in the Congress rooms and you're making laws and they're going to affect people, you now have a frame of reference of other people besides your experience to make a reference to. Right, of course.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: What are your thoughts on?
You know, I've always, with my background, obviously, you have the book and everything. I've had people that. What do they call it? The white savior complex.
[00:45:17] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: Right. So. And I've, you know, I had a story that involved, you know, white people over here and black people over here, but it was only because of the sections of the neighborhood and the culture that lived here. And I can't change what I am either. It had nothing to do with targeting or whatever. And it gets into the point where people are really accusatory about the separation of how people look as opposed to reaching out and helping. And I keep saying, well, if the dominating race was purple, then wouldn't it be a great idea for the purple people to reach down and say, I would like to help. I mean, so part of my plight, too, is to find out what somebody who is trying to do the right thing could learn from these things. What would you tell Joe White guy who doesn't really understand the history?
What would you tell him in terms of how he could help your plight?
[00:46:18] Speaker A: I'm not so sure I know how to answer that. And I'm thinking about some movie I saw where a black and a white ended up in prison. And I think they did a prison break and they had to depend on each other to be sure that they were recaptured. They got to be kissing cousins all, you know.
[00:46:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Again, a common experience, a common goal.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shucks.
[00:46:46] Speaker C: But one of the neat things, and I keep saying neat because everything to me is new in an experience, because the union gospel mission, the black guy and the white guy who came together and forged a friendship that developed because he was a painter and they found a commonality, you know? And again, he was homeless.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me tell you about that. This white fellow's son took him to union gospel mission and just put him out and threw his suitcase at him and left him his father.
Here's this black man who big had had all kinds of problems and things, but the two of them, if the old man needed something, he saw that he got it. And the old man on his deathbed and sent for him and told him how much he appreciated for the things that he had done for him. I mean, they were like brothers. And he said to him, but you're still a nigger.
It was still there. You are not going to erase it completely. And you need to understand, understand that. But it can be alleviated. You can love to lead to.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:21] Speaker A: And you can learn to live together.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's a difference, too, obviously, in getting someone to actually shift how they think and have the true empathy and have an appreciation would never utter the word. And each generation, hopefully, will dilute that stigma. But you also still have, as Miss Dionne mentioned, you have extremists in this day and age, too, who are pretty much not going to change. And if you tell them you're not allowed to say certain words and you, then you're just keeping them from being so obvious, but they're not changing their minds. So we're really just trying to find the people in the middle who may not agree but are looking for answers and solutions and conversations like this.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:49:05] Speaker C: And I think one of the things that we can do, Joe White guy, Jill, white guy, white girl.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And even his counterpart, like the black guy who would be critical of me, saying, how could you understand?
What can those two people actually do?
[00:49:22] Speaker C: I reckon it to my daughter, who at the time was 27. She's 30 now. And I've always said, it's not a black thing. It's not a white thing. It's the right thing. She grew up with me telling her that.
And so when we got to Juneteenth and Grandir said what I said, she said, you changed her. I said, it's always been that way for Grandir. She's just copying something that I've always said. But it's. You can't.
You cannot legislate righteousness.
You can't make enough laws for righteousness to abound in the heart of a person. It goes to the individual. And so when we try and make something right or wrong or a law against it, our human nature says, you can't tell me what to do, all right? And so that's why we have to follow after what would have been the golden rule going back to you, you know, the Bible and it being about what is the right thing to do as it relates to humanity. And so my daughter told me, mom, you're giving away our holiday. You're giving away, you know, and I said, robin, what I need you to understand is that there is no freedom if you can't allow yourself to enjoy it with everybody. And so Juneteenth represents freedom and that there were people who were oppressed because they didn't like the way their parents were treating the other, but they're not saying anything. Cause they didn't want to be cut off. Now they have the freedom to say, I don't have a problem with black people. I don't have a problem with, you know, this or that, even though my parents did. And I came up in that society, right? So now they get to be free to be human, right again, all right? And so when Juneteenth is allowed to allow people to come into an understanding of what went on, that helps to shape a better America or a better nation, a better world, even. And so when she got to travel with grandier because I couldn't be in one place at one time, she began to see what Grandiere was talking about, the unity, the unifying factor that Juneteenth could be. And she says, mama, understand now? She says, because with me holding a hatred and saying, you can't come in here. I'm keeping people from experiencing true freedom of what it means to be a human being. And I was like, now you found a way to make the young people in your sphere understand that, and you have your own platform.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Cause you're also stifling the acknowledgement, which is what we're really looking for, is for somebody to say, actually, now I understand, and I acknowledge it. So as long as you're keeping it for yourself, again, it can be the celebration day. But like you said, you want it to be more than a party.
[00:52:28] Speaker A: Yeah. See, I'm telling youngsters they have to celebrate from the 19 June to the 4 july, and they have to remember the 4 july. Freed the land, juneteenth freed the people.
[00:52:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And there's no easter bunny in that story.
There's a lot of truth to that. I really appreciate it. What is something that she's taught you?
Maybe some kind of singular lesson or an experience that you've taken from something from her, working alongside her?
[00:53:00] Speaker C: The thing that I've learned most is an appreciation for people. You can't look down on people. She has not met a stranger, and she helps everybody, even sometimes to her own hurt. And I think that she would say, you can't throw people away.
She's a person of second chances, third and fourth chances.
And to me, that's taken a little bit much. Right? You showed yourself the first two times that. Yeah.
All right.
But she values everybody having value. Okay. They may not look like you, they may not have had a similar experience to you, but there's something in them that you need to find out that you can, that can help you to your next space. So she doesn't throw people away.
And to us, sometimes it's just a little bit much, grandira. It just really is. But I think that that is the one thing that I've learned.
Now I'm harder because I'm always a doer, and so I have a dear friend, and my husband says, you don't know how to be a friend. Cause you're just. You don't check on people. You don't. I said, they know that if they need me to, just call me, all right? They know that.
[00:54:38] Speaker B: That's what dudes do anyway.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: I said, they know. But there is. She still calls and checks on everybody and still remembers, you know, stuff about people and remembers to do. So that's something that I'm learning. It's remarkable to be a real friend.
What do they talk about? The love languages.
Hers is acts of service. I'm acts of service. I'm not one for affirmations. Some folks need affirmations, need you to call and talk to them. Some folks like, gifts. Some folks like, okay, so as long as I'm doing, you're good with me, right?
[00:55:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:55:15] Speaker C: But knowing that people need other ways to know that you love them, right. And so. But she and I are acts of service, and mine is, you know, recognizing people need, you know.
[00:55:29] Speaker B: Yeah. They're not all like you.
[00:55:30] Speaker C: They're not all me.
[00:55:31] Speaker B: I think most dudes are like that, though. Like, I haven't seen you in three years, and then we meet up, and it's like, hey, it just feels like I saw you yesterday. It's all good, and you didn't call me, and I'm still cool with it.
[00:55:40] Speaker C: I'm still cool with it.
[00:55:40] Speaker B: I don't think women are so much like that. I don't know.
Well, you are.
So tell me. Tell me one thing about you that I can't say that no one would know, but a rarely told story that someone would likely not have heard about.
[00:55:57] Speaker A: You, that I like to read, and I just, oh, I don't have the time anymore, but when I get a good book, I stay with it all through the night to the next morning. I love to read. I do. And I've come up with some fantastic stuff. Did I tell you about black?
[00:56:19] Speaker B: Yes. I wrote it down because I've got it, and. But it's a sales pitch. You got to buy then white and red, right?
[00:56:28] Speaker A: I'm still into black.
[00:56:30] Speaker B: I love it. Yeah, I'm in it, too. I will absolutely do that. I think reading is falling by the wayside, too. A lot of people are reading less because there's so many other media and activities.
[00:56:43] Speaker A: I only look at television. I don't look at the news or any of that stuff. I just look at blue bloods, and.
[00:56:52] Speaker C: It'S fixing the end. I mean, in syndication and reruns. That's all she looks at.
[00:56:57] Speaker B: Look at it twice.
[00:56:59] Speaker C: Got me hooked on blue bloods, but it's neat for her to, I think, live through her legacy of activism. We've got the food bank and Opal's farm, which are past her grandmother of Juneteenth thing. This is things that she did even before the notoriety came, and wanting to help people with what she has. It's not, you know, well, as soon as we get this, you know, or we get this money, then I can do. It's working with what you got and, you know, making the best of that and sharing the little that you have so that somebody else can have more than they had. Right. So I don't know. It's really an experience you know, being in her shadow and being, you know, helping her along, accomplishing the things that she set out. She's got a long list that still needs to be done, and that's beautiful.
[00:58:05] Speaker B: Well, and so similar to that, my last question would be, what advice would you give to someone like, Miss Dionne is learning from you. But if someone didn't have the experience to actually shadow you and go to these events and help organize them and carry that message, how would you tell someone who is passionate about a purpose, whether it's Juneteenth or something else, how would you advise them to go forward and make a difference?
[00:58:31] Speaker A: I would say if you've got this feeling that it's good for you, your family, your neighbors, then go for it. Don't let anything stop you. Hell or hot water.
People will just.
They. Some of them will decide that what you're doing, you're crazy. They did me. But, hey, I just ignored them and kept on moving.
It was no problem because I knew that people needed food, and that's why we started a food bank. I knew people needed fresh vegetables, and that's why we started a farm. And whatever's need housing, I'm up to, oh, I'd like to have some tiny houses for people my age. You know, I ain't got there yet, but I'm trying. Shoot to see if I can. I got some land, if I can put more than one tiny house.
[00:59:38] Speaker B: So build a community out.
Great idea.
[00:59:42] Speaker C: She's got a list.
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Pass on your list. I'd love to see what we can do to help. Anything else that you wanted to add to the conversation today?
[00:59:53] Speaker A: I told them about the museum.
[00:59:55] Speaker C: We have not talked about the museum.
[00:59:57] Speaker B: Bring the museum. Yeah, because even the location has some interesting history behind it.
[01:00:01] Speaker C: Right. The national Juneteenth Museum is going to be erected in the historic south side of Fort Worth at the corner of Evans and Rosedale.
Part of the initial part of the land was a lot where she had a local Juneteenth museum since 2025.
And so. But the. And my word is just neat. The neat thing about the location of it is it's a driving force for economic redevelopment in the historic south side. The historic south side where she grew up, just down the street from Terrell street.
[01:00:39] Speaker B: You're talking east Annie over there.
[01:00:41] Speaker C: Well, right there. But Evans and Rosedale, the corridor, that's where black life really happened. Right. Drake's cafeteria was in that area. The majestic, the grand theater is in that area. Now we have the Lenoir center, the Boone mansion, all of that's historic south side. And so it was the hot spot, the thriving spot for the african american community. It, of course, has seen decline with the advent of I 35, separating and breaking off the community.
And so now with us bringing the national Juneteenth Museum and its components, it's more than just the museum. It's got an incubator for small businesses to get started. It's going to have a food hall where there's going to be at least six to eight restaurantpreneurs in it. It's going to have a 250 seat theater where we can have culture and arts inside of the neighborhood. It's also going to be a campus that has housing and retail as a part of developing a center to live workplace, as they say.
[01:01:48] Speaker A: Right.
[01:01:49] Speaker C: But all of that's going to bring investment, all of that's going to bring revitalization to the historic south side where she grew up. And so with that, it's just a no brainer to then have galleries and have it anchored by the National Juneteenth Museum. And so we're really glad to be a part of the board. We're legacy board members as a part of the board, and the vision that Jared Howard had started out as the black hole, H O L e, bringing a wholeness to that community. And so to that, it's just burgeoning. It's a $70 million project of which we have 35, just about half already fundraised. And so now. And what our funders told us is that you have to make sure that the nation sees Fort Worth is invested, that Texas is invested.
[01:02:46] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[01:02:46] Speaker C: And so we've got that halfway mark, and now we're going to see the funding of the national funding.
[01:02:51] Speaker B: That's wonderful.
[01:02:52] Speaker C: So we're on our way, and it's slated to open in 2026.
[01:02:56] Speaker A: And when I come to you with my hat in my hands, don't turn me away.
[01:03:00] Speaker B: Absolutely not. You, come on. I told you. Give me your list. Let me see what I can do with it.
That's a proud moment. And I saw that neighborhood is where I did a lot of work out in that area, and it really declined after a period of time. Been revitalized quite a bit.
[01:03:16] Speaker C: Yes, it has. Yes, it has.
[01:03:17] Speaker B: Definitely on.
[01:03:17] Speaker C: Well, we're trying to keep gentrification from happening. And, folks, it getting too expensive to stay there. Right. And so that's one of the things with, when you bring something like this to it, folks are really concerned, well, are you gonna push me out? And so it's not about pushing folks out, but giving folks a reason to stay in the neighborhood because it is gonna grow and it's going to have all of the eyes of the nation on it.
[01:03:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a perfect thing to put there too. That's not going to be a gentrification catalyst.
Well, I'm so blessed to have you all here. Thank you so much for spending time. I will do my best to get this out to every single person we can spread the word.
[01:03:59] Speaker A: And thank you for having us.
[01:04:01] Speaker B: Yes, ma'am. Well, anytime.
What's it take? What you gonna do what you gonna do? Success around the same second grade rules a confident fake to make you do to make you do what they want when they won't be the fool a diplomatic base is the one to see it through and don't let those figures take you off your game of Jack just to let him lose just sit here in the front seat baby, ain't that sweet take a little honey from the money be but don't pay the.
[01:04:43] Speaker C: Fool.
[01:04:46] Speaker B: Any political magical potion a missing beast at the end of the game a soul rolls either truth is so emotion I never found a 60 frames like five minute motion truth lies between blurry line if you gonna call me back.
