Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Maybe even a criminal conviction for somebody who follows that path. If they're the primary investigator or prosecutor, if you feel like there should be some kind of penance for that, yeah.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: I think they should go to prison because nine times out of ten, or I can say ten times out of ten, they know if you did that crime or not. They know it, the cops know it, they know it. It's just them being lazy for one and then having tunnel vision for two because they like, oh, Christopher Scott did it, but it was two other guys implicated that could be the people that actually committed this crime but did not. One time you go and look for those individuals or even question.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: One for the game.
My next guest never ceases to amaze me. He is a man that was wrongfully convicted of a murder he did not commit, served nearly 13 years before finally being exonerated. If you'd like to learn more about that story and its specifics, I will link a video so that you can take an opportunity to look at the events leading up to that wrongful arrest so that you have some context. But in this conversation we are jumping right in. We're talking about legislative changes. We're talking about reintegration and the difficulties that people face after they spent long prison sentences away from society. We talked about racial bias and the things that we still need, the progress we've made, and most importantly, the fact that emotional control is so remarkable in this man that he's taken this experience and flipped it to help other people. I mean, my kind of guy times infinity. I can't say enough about him. So please help me in welcoming my great friend back to the Tcast, mr. Christopher Scott. You were talking about before, how you were interviewing judges and all those politicians types that are elected. Is there any issue with any of them where you feel like something is prohibitive when you talk to them on your podcast? If you feel like they are learning from you but are still kind of hamstrung in terms of what they drive the car for you? Because that's a controversial subject and they got to get reelected, right? Does that ever seem like an issue?
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Like they say, it's just so many things that they could talk about, you know what I mean? Because they are governed by the system where you can only say much because you got to understand you sit higher in a courts so everything that could be used, it can be held against you. Not only like they say, against us in the court of law, but it could be in your courtroom and the people that's going to vote for you. Because everybody, when they're campaigning, they're campaigning on certain causes that they feel is more closer to their heart than anything.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Else or even closer to the voters.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: Exactly. Voters hearts. Yeah. That's what I was going to say next to get them to come out and vote for or even just listen to what they had to say. Because it's a challenge where you have to go from walking the streets, getting people to want to volunteer with your campaign, and they only have so much money in the campaign, though, you know what I mean? So you got to get your volunteers. And in order to get good volunteers, you have to be a good person because people don't want to work for shitheads, you know what I mean? I'm sorry for saying that, but it is what it is.
If I'm politiking for you and I'm out there supporting you, you got to be a mirror image of me.
[00:04:02] Speaker A: You're putting your name yeah, I'm putting.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: My name on something, and I don't want to put my name on something and it backfires. And now I'm held accountable because I have certain people coming out willing to work with you and vote for you and have others vote for you, right?
[00:04:17] Speaker A: And it's a complicated process. The deeper you look into the political system, it's so complicated and sure, frustrating.
And I've had that same experience where I worked with attorneys and then all of a sudden they are judges and then there's just a lot more care about what gets said when you're not in your own private practice and you're in a public setting. So I feel for you because I know your plight is so important. But I also know it's so politically charged when you're talking about judges and prosecutors and stuff. Especially in light of the fact that you're talking to a lot of local ones.
And the fact that you were essentially railroaded by the Dallas Police department and the Dallas prosecutor's office, dallas county prosecutor's office that put you down for a murder charge, for a murder you did not commit for almost 13 years. And now you're coming back and trying to nobly, tackle a lot of the issues that surround that and try to tackle that. But again, once it becomes politicized, it's something that seems like a speed bump that they're happy to acknowledge but not really fly the flag for all the time.
And I'm here also to try to help share that story because I admire you. I think you're a better man than I and certainly many other people because I would still be so pissed off.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: It's easy to remain pissed off, but at the same time, what is they going to do for you? You know what I mean? If you're going to have something in your way that's going to stagnate your growth as developing into something that you really want and feel a passion about of trying to do. And my whole thing was to get out of prison and make a difference in I don't know how many people lives, but me working on wrongful conviction cases, that changes people lives because a lot of times people don't even know who to write to.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: They can write to certain organizations. But when you have a home based organization, Grassrooted, a lot of people comes to those kind of organization because when you go to the bigger ones, if it's not almost cut and dry, they pretty much don't want to deal with.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: It because everybody's writing to them, even the ones that aren't innocent.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: You're still giving it a shot, right?
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. You get those is it pretty easy.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: For you to see through a lot of that?
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah, you got to see through the bush. You know what I mean? Seriously. Because at the end of the day, before I even take a case and just say I'm a stamp my organization name on it, I got to go see that person face to face. Okay. If I visit you face to face, it's something that you wrote to me that stuck with me. And not only that, whatever I've read upon your case, either it be your trial transcripts or anything like that. I have to see something in something that's going to make me make that trip to come see you.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: So once I come see you and I'm able to sit down with you face to face, I get a better understanding on who I'm dealing with.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: Because you've got a great intuition for.
[00:07:28] Speaker B: This good bullshit meter. Yes. It goes through the roof. I got a good bullshit meter for sure.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: And you can see a lot of that even just in the writings to where you can pass on some of those knowing that this isn't one that we want to tackle.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Yeah, because it's crazy because in prison, if you actually look at it, I was on the 5000 men unit, one of the biggest unit in the system. And when you're dealing with so many different personalities a day, you pick up on all kinds of things. And when you just sit back and talk to a person in prison maybe about their case or anything in life, you just don't know. You already pretty much home reeling yourself to become an investigator because now you want to be able to wait through what he's saying, what makes sense, what don't make sense. And the main thing about it is his story consistent because every other day you may hear something different and you're like, he's not telling the truth because last week he said this, now this week he's saying that. And last month he said, you know, you picking up on all these body languages and how people talk to you and you get a good feel from people that way. Yeah.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: And I imagine you are a pro. Do you do any consulting work outside of So House of Renewed Hope is your organization and you work with some attorneys and stuff to get exonerates freed. But do you do any consultancy? Because it seems like more people like me. I've seen two sides of things, but not from the inside. I mean, your perspective being in the inside and the intuition that you developed with direct experience seems like that would be really helpful for other organizations to say, hey, can I run this by you? Do you ever get any of that?
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I get a lot of that.
I get hired out as going into jails or prisons and talking to people, like, before they even go to trial, you know what I mean? Because you want to kind of educate them on, this is how a trial goes.
This is what you should expect from a trial. And should you take this, or should you just go to trial and just pray that the juror found you not guilty or you get some time where at least your parole officer is already born, you know what I mean? Because some people get time. Your parole officer ain't even born yet, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I get consultants to come talk to individuals in prison.
Also lend the hep in hand with other organization that's trying to do the same work that I'm doing. They always call me and ask for advice, because I've been doing it since 2010.
I've been doing it for 13 years now, so I know what I'm doing. And we haven't got anybody literally exonerated. But we had a case as of his name was Isaiah Hill.
He spent 41 years in prison for a crime we know he didn't commit. And actually, we're working on his pardon right now as we speak. I investigated his case for five years, and the crazy part about things like that was they didn't want to let this guy to prison because he just didn't have nowhere to go to.
He didn't have no living relatives that could take him in.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: But that's the case of a lot of prisoners.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Exactly. But it's just certain warrants. They feel like, we can do this to you because you just don't know any better.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So he ended up doing his full stint.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: No, he had 75 years for a robbery that did nobody get hurt or anything, and it pointed to another individual, and they still found him guilty. And the crazy part about it, I was able to track down one of the jurors, and she was saying, like, she was the last one to hold out because she didn't feel like they did enough investigation to get a guilty verdict.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Well, then why did you vote the.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Way you and she said this? You say, Well, I kept getting pressured by other jury members. Like, you need to go in and say guilty because we want to go home.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: That's a really interesting perspective, because I do hear stories like that, too. You get a really strong personality in the room, and usually it's the ones that ends up being the foreman, somebody that take control type person. And you have somebody that really is a good thinker, but doesn't have that type of personality, where they can just roll over people. And you do get people that are working on in a very important case, it takes twice as long, and they can be intimidated somewhat into making decisions that they regret.
How do we fix that?
[00:12:56] Speaker B: You got to be able to talk to the jury panel and tell them, like, you can't be swayed by other people the way other people think. And you got to think for yourself and be strong minded when you do it. Because just and I always tell people this, do not run from being on a jury panel. Don't run from it, embrace it, because just your one vote of laws and stop an innocent man or woman from going to prison or worse yet, going to death row, right? So I want people to take it serious. But a lot of times we get this about jury's panel selection, and I always heard judges, prosecutors, cops, or anybody, they always say this, and it pisses me off. They say well, why African Americans and Hispanics? They don't be selected on a jury panel, or they just don't want to be on a jury panel. And I'm going to give you a reason why not.
For one, you get paid like $6 the first day, and after that, it's like $40 per day to be on a jury panel.
Now, if my paycheck doesn't reflect that, then why am I going to want to be on a Jerry panel?
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Right?
[00:14:22] Speaker B: I got to pay my bills, right? You know what I mean? And I want to do my civic duty as to be on a jury panel, but you have to pay me accordingly. They just raised the price up, but it was mere pennies. And they think, oh, we really did something, because what, you raise it up a dollar?
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah, $6 won't cover parking.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Exactly.
So when we look at different ethnic groups and you see why it's so many whites that's on a jury panel.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: Because they can afford to be on socioeconomic.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: It's a social economic they can afford to be on there. But when you got other African American Hispanics of another culture race, they can't do it because they just can't afford it now. They can afford it to do it.
And we as the public, it's taxpayers money anyway, right? You know what I mean? It's taxpayers money.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: So maybe you leverage like, levels of because there's a lot of people you get called in for jury duty, you have no idea what you're about to get into.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: It could be something minor or whatever. Maybe they pay you accordingly. It could end up being a ton of money, right. If you think about it, because it's easy for us to say because it's not our money, right. But at the same time, I completely agree with you, and I see people that can afford it still run from it because what's the point?
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: And so I guess unless you're on a salary and your work is obligated to let you go, right, you're not going to go.
That's fascinating.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: You got to give people something worthwhile, you know what I mean? If I'm going to listen to a trial for four or 5 hours maybe out of a day and you pay me $40 for that day, it's not worth it, right. That's when people stop caring because you're not making it worth my while. So you don't want us to care, so you want to keep us off the jury panel. Because what you really don't want, you really don't want a diverse jury panel, right.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: And no matter how bad your attorney wants to diversify it, right. You only have to choose from who you have to choose.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: There's that whole process between the two of them having to have a consensus about who comes on.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: And that's crazy. I'd never thought of that. But that would be a really creative way to improve the situations and maybe keep people from being convicted wrongly.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Just imagine, majority of us in Dallas, Canada got convicted by all white jury panel. It's like 74 exonerates in Dallas County. 74, 74, 95% African American men.
And out of that 95%, maybe, I would say 90% had all white jury panel. Now just imagine if one or two African American people was on that jury panel. Now, I'm not saying they're going to take our side because we're of color, but they're going to be more reasonable to listen and not judge us just because we're African American people. They're going to judge us about who the individual is. Right.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Because I would say that's what somebody is going to protest and say, wait a minute, it really shouldn't matter. Of course it shouldn't matter, right. But realistically speaking, people have an innate bias. Even if they think they may not be completely bigoted, but they have biases and you may not recognize what they are.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: And sometimes things that can happen during a course of a criminal act or a non criminal act, things that can happen that may be culturally appropriate that a white person wouldn't even recognize and they would think of something crazy. So I'm glad you expounded on that because I know that's what somebody would protest that and say, what's the difference? You just want somebody that again is going to say, well, I'm going to team up here.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: But to that note too, you can't have it the other way. Also, it's even worse the other way.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: Yeah. It's so funny. Like a couple of weeks ago, James Hammond, he's the investigator that actually helped me get exonerated, I had him on my podcast and he was telling me know, collin county had just started like a Conviction Integrity Unit CIU.
This is the team that investigate only wrongful conviction cases.
So he said, I want you to reach out to this guy. And I was like, okay. He said he'll be willing to sit down and talk to you and see how you all can help them when exonerates get exonerated, the support system and things like that, that one needs. And I was like, okay, cool. That's fine. He gave me his name, but I didn't recognize his name. This is how small of a world it is when me and a guy get on the phone and he said, you may not want to have a conversation with me. I was like, Why you say that? He said, Because I wrote rid of habeas corpus to keep you inside of prison, because at that time we thought you was guilty, and I didn't want to see you go free. And then when I looked at the name again, I recognized I'm like what I'm like. So now I'm actually reaching out to people that actually try to keep me inside of prison. But that just shows you how much you want to try to help the system. Like, if you felt that way about me and everybody else knew I was actually innocent, but you just didn't want to accept that because it didn't fit what you liked. It didn't fit what you liked. So now you're like, I don't like this. I'm going to try to do something about it.
But I'm trying to get you to change that now. But that's why I'm reaching out, and that's why I didn't run from you when you said that to me. I got to get you to change that mentality that you have, and you.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: Want to learn what it was, maybe.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: What made you feel that way.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: So now when we can talk about it, you won't treat the next person the same way that you try to treat me.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: How was your integration afterwards? And you're able to help other people integrate, but what were the most surprising aspects of reintegration that you felt were difficult?
I will just say for the audience sake, you were a guy that was a responsible adult, taking care of his business, had a job, whatever, blah, blah, and then went to prison and came out. So you did have some advantage over other folks that may have be getting out of prison that were criminals and they only knew the criminal world.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: But after that amount of time, twelve and a half years, it's got to be an insane experience to get out. What was your experience like in reintegration?
[00:21:40] Speaker B: It was hard. First and foremost, my sense of direction was shot.
It was so many different things that was built in Dallas County that I just didn't recognize anymore. When we're talking about the mixmaster and all the different highways and freeways when I left, it wasn't nearly none of those kind of highways and freeways now. So it was that, and it was technology, and I tell you about it. So my sense of direction was lost because when you take somebody from somewhere, like you say, for so long and now only thing of memory is that is when he left.
And now what I have to focus on is everyday life in prison. So now I didn't let the free world go because it's no more part of me anymore. Only thing out there is a part of me is my family. But my mind, body and soul, I would say my body and soul is entrapped in prison.
Never let my mind be entrapped in prison. Never wanted my mind to be imprisoned. So I kind of stayed out of that box. But at the same time when only thing you know is then is walking down the hallway from your sale to child back to your sale, right? So this is I 45 for me, you know what I mean? From Dallas to Houston. This is my I 45. Yeah, but what about all the other highways?
You see what I'm getting at? So now I'm lost.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: You just felt disoriented. Disoriented city.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: Exactly. So now I get in the car, don't really know what direction to take.
When I supposed to be going east, I'm going west. And I'm like, I'm kind of a landmark person. If I know the landmark, I can get back to it. I got to find it. So when I'm going east and supposed to be going west, now I drove 35, 40 minutes out of my way. Now I'm kind of terrified. This one PTSD kick in. Now I don't know where I'm at. Now I'm panicking because now you somewhere that you don't know you're not comfortable with. And where you at is majority of the people that found you guilty, the jury panel. And this is like a white town, so you don't even know how to deal with this situation anymore because you've been out of society so long. So now what's my next thing is this one technology come in since the directions are shot. You telling me to work in navigation. I don't even know how to work in telephone. You know what I mean? So I'm like, what do you mean, navigate? What you got to put this app on your I don't know what the app is. So I'm going through all of these more to so the only thing I can do is let me call somebody. So I would call my girlfriend, like, hey, tell me how to get home.
And it made me feel so much like less than a man, because now you got to call somebody to tell you how to get home.
So now you're on the phone. They're like, Where are you at? I'm like, I don't know.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: If I knew, I wouldn't be calling be calling you.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: I look up where I'm on 30 or 121 or something, and they were like, okay, just keep going. This way until you see something that you're familiar with. So only thing I had to do was make a Uturn and go back in the other direction, but not knowing all these highways anymore because you can veer off right here. If you miss this turn, you got to go all the way, two, three, four more miles just to get an exit and turn back around again. So my sense of direction was lost and technology. When I went to prison, I was using VHS tapes. When I got out. Everything is DVD, right? Everything is computerized.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Internet.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah, the Internet. Like, I didn't know when I went to prison, we was walking into the gas station, paying for the gas, and now you can put a credit card in. But now only thing I'm thinking about, like, I always forgot my Pin number. I didn't know a Pin number was that valuable because I didn't know, like, every time you put that credit card in, you got to put that Pin number in to get money out. And just imagine, like, I'm out.
I got a Pin number, but now I don't forgot it.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: And so all these things you had to learn the hard way because no one's actually saying, hey, let me integrate a few things with training you on the tech and the directions and how to handle bills and payments and stuff, because you were a young man. But it's not like you had already had a successful life, because you didn't have time to get that far, right?
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah, but having family and friends to actually embrace me, knowing that this guy don't know what he's supposed to know, so let's get together and work this out with him and make sure he gets on the right track. So next thing you know, here come the laptop. This is how you sign in. This is your code passwords. So they just walking me through it a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot to intake. So I'm like, they know. I'm like, just show me a little at a time.
Don't bum rush me with it. I'll be okay. You know what I mean? My mind is still focusing on not listening to people tell you to tell them, what's your prison number to get your mail? You know what I mean?
Now I can get up and walk outside and walk to my own mailbox and get my own mail. So you're being transformed in this way. So now you got to detransform when you come back out again because it's two totally different worlds.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Did you experience anything on top of that? Like, we've had Jay Jordan on the show. You familiar with Jay's work?
He was released, and he's trying to get laws changed for people who either made a plea deal or got out of prison and then have no opportunity to actually undo that felony they went in with. And they can't volunteer at their kids school and they can't buy a weapon, they can't all this stuff, even after a period of time, you say, Well, I've been out for 1012 15 years and have had a straight life, and I still can't go volunteer at my kids school or whatever. Did you experience any of that, even knowing that you had a complete exoneration? Did any of this follow you for some period of time afterward?
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Not really, because I had an attorney that really wanted me to have a clear record.
So she was like, I got to get your record expunged, so that's the next best thing. We're going to get your number expunged so won't nothing be on your record anymore. So I really didn't have to deal with that because they put the right attorney on my case that actually had compassion for me being wrongfully convicted, so she felt like it was her duty. Michelle Moore, Lover to Death she works for me right now.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: And that in modern day is actually a lot more difficult because there's so many resources now to pull information from. We have guys that come in and put an application in and say, no, never been arrested. And then we just run a basic we can do a deep dive.
We don't even do a deep dive and it pops up. You've been arrested three times. Well, I thought that was already expunged, and now you look like a liar.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:53] Speaker A: So that could really make it more difficult for somebody because then you have to disclose it. And I've seen people disclose things on a resume. We're like, man, this is going to be so hard for you to get work.
[00:30:04] Speaker B: Right?
[00:30:05] Speaker A: Because our particular work we hire is regulated through the state, so you can only have so much of a criminal history anyway. But I know it's prohibitive, but I would never suggest anyone, not to be honest, because if anyone's willing to give you a chance, the last thing they want to think is, you're still dishonest.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: Right? You lying to me about something where we can go, look up now, it's so easy. It's public.
[00:30:29] Speaker A: Even after an expungement, man, it's just so many places you got to go and pull that information from to get rid of it.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: It seems impossible, but it's not impossible because when I get pulled over by the cops, they see nothing.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's what I mean. In your day, I think you hit just the right time, because if you were getting out now, which my point is, I think the people that may be exonerated now may have that additional thing follow them around, which is why I asked the question.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Once you get exonerated, that should be the first thing you ask for. I want to be expunged. I don't want this on my record, period.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: You don't have to explain.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: I don't have to explain it. You know what I mean? Now I can go and be at my. Kids school. I can be around other kids. I can be a father to the people I need to be a father to. So now I got a clean record. But it's good now that some district attorney offices are doing expunctions, and I commend them for doing it and how they're going about doing it. I like how they're doing it now? Yeah, they take a group because I spoke at an expunction seminar where it was like, maybe 100 people getting a record expunged.
And I was like, okay, this is a good thing. You know what I mean? If you paid your dues in prison and got out and paid your dues from either parole or probation, if you walk that down and now you're no longer on parole or probation, why not?
Why not? I did what I was supposed to, right? Yeah.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Even if convicted righteously. That's what I mean. I think that was to Jay's point. After a certain amount of years, I mean, it's okay to say, look, let's see if after five years you're still on the straight narrow. And if you are, especially someone like you or like him, if you get arrested when you're 19 and you're a 45 year old man, right?
[00:32:33] Speaker B: Go figure.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: About time. Just go give this man a job and let him vote, get his rights back.
[00:32:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: And some of it is exactly what you're doing for some of those folks that are about to go into a trial experience, because he would explain that to them before they go take a plea deal. Because he's like, all right, this deal looks like less time or probation, but let me explain what the consequences are going to be. That never leave ever, right? Like, you take this 20% of jobs that you think you might want to do and just take them off the table, you can't do it.
[00:33:05] Speaker B: And I hate that's. What public defenders, court appointed attorneys, they want you to do? They want you to plead out.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: They want you to plead. And you like, Why you want me to plead so bad?
[00:33:20] Speaker A: It's a lot less work, a lot less cost.
[00:33:23] Speaker B: Don't have time for know. It's crazy. Like, I had an intern, Marco Chavez, and he used to work in the DA office in Oklahoma, okay? And he used to tell me, he was like, man, I cannot believe what I see in a district attorney's office.
He said, they be wanting to put people on parole.
He said, like, I'd seen one cop get a guy, put a guy on five year parole just because he found, like, a half a joint in the ashtray.
Half a joint. He got five year probation for it. He said, we just want to get them on probation, and once they get on probation, they'll ruin their own life. And I'm like, that's crazy. And he was like, I hate seeing that. He said, I had to get out of there and his know, I'm so proud of him. He volunteered with me. He passed the state bar twice in Texas and in Florida, and right now he's a Jag attorney. Really? Yeah.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Kids got some.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Oh, I met him. He was in high school, but this high school was for special kids. That was like an upstart of law school, but it was high school. But they was getting college credits and everything like that. He was so sharp, and it's crazy. We're working on a case right now that he started, and only thing we need is an affidavit signed by somebody and these two individuals nine times ten be exonerated. And he did all the legwork on that case before he became a Jag attorney.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: That's great. Great amount of experience, and nothing beats that kind of experience. No school is going to be that.
[00:35:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: So does he or you see any changes in I mean, he saw one prosecutor's office, and it's always different. Same with police departments. You talk about little bitty towns versus giant towns. I mean, there's all kinds of difference in each of those. Do you see any kind of improvements or anything in the prosecutor offices? Because even if a detective sends up a case, the prosecutor's got to buy in at an early stage and take the ball and run with it.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: And at some point, they might also figure out, wait a minute, something's hinky here, and hopefully stand up.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: What happens when a prosecutor gets a case but it's far in between that you get a good prosecutor that's going to say, this is not a case that I could win because everything is in his favor, which is why they.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: Want to plead him out, because that's a win.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Because just take this to grand jury.
You can't even be in there. In your attorney can't only one can be in is the prosecution side.
They get a chance to plead their case in front of the grand jury. Why do you think you get so many indictments?
[00:36:29] Speaker A: You don't have a defense attorney.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: You don't have a defense in order to defend you.
[00:36:33] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: So now it's just a prosecutor selling these individuals a dream.
He's selling them a dream. He like, okay, we're going to treat this like the Oscars.
You got the defense attorney, you got the prosecutor. Now, if I'm more prepared than a defense attorney, I'm a win.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: And you have that charisma.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:36:58] Speaker A: That goes a long way.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: I'm going to win. So that Oscar is going to be mine because I'm going to be victorious. I'm going to get a guilty verdict. Right. You know what I mean? So the court system is just so unbalanced, but racially unbalanced, you know what I mean? You can see take, for instance, a white guy go to jail for, say, drugs or murder. He may get five years for drugs, maybe ten to 15 years for murder.
[00:37:30] Speaker A: I've seen, yes.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: But when you get African American for drugs, oh, I'm going to give you 35, 40 years for this murder. I'm going to give you a life sentence. And you see and I sit in courtrooms and I've seen this with my own eyes, like, wow, this is really true, where the court judicial criminal justice system is so racially unbalanced and biased. And if somebody tell you it's not, they lying. I'm telling you they're lying.
[00:38:03] Speaker A: Well, and a lot of it's pure ignorance because like I said, I think absolutely there are still racists in every part of that system.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:15] Speaker A: But there are also many people who are just ignorant to what's happening and need to be educated. People like you and your experience and the people that you've been working with. That goes a long way. And the fact that you have gone through what you've gone through and are so composed and making such an impact on the world, I think that should get most people's attention to at least. Sit down. I know there's people I definitely want to introduce you to and have conversations with, too, in this regard.
Now, you met Alonzo Hardy, the guy that actually committed the murder that you were sent away for. And you've also had some interaction with the detective that put your case together. Did you have any direct interaction with him?
[00:39:00] Speaker B: With who?
[00:39:00] Speaker A: With the police department folks that put you down. Have you spoken to any of them, the detective in particular?
[00:39:08] Speaker B: No.
Matter of fact, it's crazy.
He's dead now. Is he the detective that gave me my yeah. That charged me with capital murder? Yeah. He's dead now, and it's such a small world.
I'm going to visit a client in Houston on the 10th. He's in there for murder. The same two detectives that gave me my wrongful conviction got him in prison.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Right now I'm going to see him on a tent in Houston. The same two officers that wrongfully convicted me doing them the same way.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Well, I wonder if there's a path to investigate. A lot of the cases that he was actually associated with should be if.
[00:39:56] Speaker B: Anybody has a wrongful conviction case, whatever cop or detective that individual is, all of his cases should be reopened and looked at again, because he didn't only do it to me, I'm sure he did it to many others.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Well, and it's the same thing that happens when you find out that a police officer lies under oath or whatever. I mean, their cases are basically trash at that point. And even if it's for a non impactful case, right. It's like, okay, well, this guy's not truthful. Promise you that everybody's been convicted under that guy's tenure is going to be saying, hang on a second, this guy's a liar. And even if you're a police officer on the street, it ruins you. So that was one of my questions, too, is what you think should happen to somebody who is involved in that, because now we see a lot more convictions for excessive force. It's not where it needs to be, but it's definitely getting there like it used to be. 0% ever got convicted. Now we're seeing a little bit more of that because more attention has been drawn to it and we can see more of the action taking place. Whereas before, everything was just his word, her word, whatever. So I wonder if you feel there should be some kind of penance and maybe even a criminal conviction for somebody who follows that path, if they're the primary investigator or prosecutor, if you feel like there should be some kind of penance for that.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think they should go to prison, because nine times out of ten, or I can say ten times out of ten, they know if you did that crime or not. They know it, the cops know it, they know it. It's just them being lazy, for one and then having tunnel vision for two, because they like, oh, Christopher Scott did it, but it was two other guys implicated that could be the people that actually committed this crime, but did not. One time you go and look for those individuals or even question them.
Yeah.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: And that's just sloppy work. We see that all the time. It's sloppy work, but we even see pretty decent detectives who do a lot of the work get tunnel vision, because when you get a hunch and you start following that hunch, you don't want to go direction. Yeah, it's a human intuitive issue that you end up following down that line. And it's been proven that you can't just follow that when it comes to.
[00:42:27] Speaker B: These the only way you can slow things like that down from happening, you got to take that immunity away from cops. See, if you take it away from them and there's nothing there to protect them, they don't have no other right to do the right thing, always, you know what I mean? You may still have a fruit slide through the cracks.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: There's always a grade.
[00:42:50] Speaker B: Yeah. It's always going to be like the flowers grow through the cement, you know what I mean? It's going to always be one that's sitting above that crack. But if you take that immunity away and they don't have no kickstand or lean on, then you would see a whole lot of things like this disappear.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: I think so, too. Yeah, that's an interesting and it would be complicated to put some kind of structure together to see that happen. But I agree with you that if there were significant consequences for making the wrong decision, I mean, at this point they say, hey, sorry, here's some money, whatever, and send you on your way. But one of my other questions was, is there any amount of money?
[00:43:34] Speaker B: It's crazy.
[00:43:35] Speaker A: If you knew that you were going to do 13 years, let's say you had the choice, would you ever make the choice and say, man, I'm going to just take the 13 years in prison and I'll take whatever number? Pick a number.
[00:43:47] Speaker B: You can never put a price on the human's life.
A human life is born out of love. Conceived out of love, not money, right?
Conceived out of love, not money. So when you're talking about putting price on a human's life, it's just like, hey, I'm going to pay you just to come into this world.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: So would it help to have other reparations, maybe even a conviction of the people that sent you down?
[00:44:20] Speaker B: That's the start, along with the compensation. Because, look, should nobody spend 1 second in jail for a crime they didn't commit? And if they did, they should be paid for it no matter what. Right? Because if you didn't want that person to be in jail for a crime he didn't commit, he or she didn't commit, do your work. Investigate that case to the fullest and make sure that I'm putting the right person in jail or I'm not putting the wrong person in jail. Do your homework. Do your work. Do your job. Stop being lazy. Stop wanting the easy way out. Do your job.
Yeah.
[00:44:53] Speaker A: And there are some great ones out there, too, which, again, it is a shame to see these types of situations happen because there are so many investigators out there, some just with minimal training or thrown into the fire, and your life is at stake and they're having to figure it out.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: Right. I mean, we got to train all our people better. It's about training. It's about training. It's about people going to those cadet schools, talking to the cadets before they even hit the streets. Because you tell I've talked to maybe three cadet classes, and I asked individuals in the white officers, white cadets, raise your hand if you ever dealt with an urban community.
None of them could raise their hand.
Yeah, this is what I'm here for.
This is what I'm here for. Individuals like you all because you haven't never really dealt with an African American person before. If you haven't policed the streets of an African American neighborhood, of an urban.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: Neighborhood, or even experienced just a general community experience of the culture, you can have a friend, but you go to your friend's house and whatever, you go to their church, you go share food. That's a little different than when you actually commune in their community, as opposed to just having somebody that's integrated as a friend, right?
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:28] Speaker A: So I'm curious about Hardy's situation when you met him.
I'm curious about how you felt, how that conversation went. Hear a little bit about that and then your perspective on Snitching and the importance of maybe having to do it or the importance of at least not being the person that's silent in certain situations. I'd be curious as your perspective. I have an appreciation for both sides.
[00:46:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: And I've seen how it can be.
I know. You know, if you're snitching on your neighbor, you still got to live next to them, and they're not going to go right away. You still got to go home. So I get it all, but I'd love your perspective on that after you tell me a little bit about hardy's meeting.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Yeah. The hardy situation, it was crazy because everybody knew who committed the crime. Everybody knew who did it.
[00:47:23] Speaker A: Everybody on the street, everybody in the neighborhood.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Everybody went to the police station and told them who did it.
The police lieutenant came to my trial and told the judge and the prosecutor, these are the two men who actually committed the crime. He had the pictures of alonzo hardy and derek anderson. These are the people who committed this crime. He showed it to the prosecutor and a judge and a judge said, get out of my courtroom. This is hearsay, and hearsay is not admissible in this court of law. But this lady is saying, I did it. That's hearsay, isn't it? Because you don't have any physical evidence to prove that I did it. Like, no, we don't have any physical evidence that you did it.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: She's trying to testify as her first hand witness.
[00:48:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:14] Speaker A: Which is not hearsay, but it's absolutely wrong.
[00:48:18] Speaker B: Right. This is the good eye you have. This is the good eyewitness that you have. We call them good. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. So up know, everybody knowing alonzo hardy had did it. Like I said, he ran into my brother in prison, and it's funny how he ran into my brother in prison. My brother worked in the prison barbershop, and lonzo ended up being on that same unit. And lonzo hardy walks into the barbershop and sits in my brother's barber chair. Now my brother's cutting his hair. And lonzo, tell him about the case that I'm in prison for alonzo hardy. Tell my brother, he say, yeah, me and a friend of mine robbed and killed this hispanic drug dealer, and there's two guys in prison for that crime. And my brother was like, wait a minute.
What?
[00:49:10] Speaker A: Rings a bell?
[00:49:11] Speaker B: Rings a he says, so tell me something about the guy that's locked up because of you. He knew everything about me. His name is christopher scott. He got two kids. His girlfriend named brandon simmons. He drive a forest green and gold lexus. He worked at the local grocery store. Simon david, he's a produce supervisor. My brother said, that's my little brother you're talking about. He was like, no. He was like, yeah, this is my little brother. He said, but I'm going to tell you what want you to come to the reg yard, and I'm going to show you a picture of it.
Went to the reg yard, showed lonzo hartley the picture. He said, yeah, that's who's in prison for the crime I committed. And he said, I told your brother, like, how could they have found y'all guilty?
And we got rid of all the and when I talked to Lonzo Hardy, I was one bro, we're in the state of Texas. Our criminal justice system is probably the worst in the country.
It's probably the worst in the country. And you think that they're going to these people weren't going to find me guilty? You know what I mean? Because look what I was facing.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: And once they did, why wouldn't you say something immediately?
[00:50:33] Speaker B: Yeah, you know what he said? That comes back to the snitching thing. Who would snitch on itself?
Who would confess to capital murder knowing murder has no statute limitation law?
That's a cop out.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: Oh, somebody that has no character, which is why he's a murderer in the first place.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: Exactly. So I look at it as dealing with Alonzo Hardy. I look at it this way. You took my life, but you gave it back to me, because he let me go to prison for almost 13 years before I was exonerated. But in order for me to get out of prison, he had to come back and confess to capital murder and pass a polygraph test, and he did that. So I was like, the only thing I can thank you for is you took my life, but you gave it back to me.
[00:51:25] Speaker A: Finally doing what you're supposed to do.
[00:51:27] Speaker B: Finally doing what you're supposed to do. Yeah, that was a very intense conversation, and it's crazy. The prison guard that was inside of the room we was in, he pulled me to the side. He was like, hey, come here right quick. I'm like, what's up? He's like, Look, I will leave out, lock this door and let you beat that guy ass if you want to. He told me that.
It's crazy. I thought about it.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: It's brilliant. But it's also part of the other systematic, systemic issue.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
The guards are supposed to protect it, so I'm like, I appreciate it, but that's not what I'm here for. I'm just here to get closure from this coward, because that's what I called him a coward. Like, use a coward. This is something you could have been and did you know that destroyed my life. I had two kids that was four and five years old at the time. You took me away from my kids.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: That destroys the culture. It keeps the cycle going with two more kids with no dad.
But again, I answer my own question as I say it out loud, because you're counting on somebody who's a complete idiot to do the right thing, and he's the one that actually did the wrong thing in the first place. Of course he's not right. But what about the other folks in the community? What are your feelings on is there, like, a break in? Like, hey, obviously if you did something nominal, didn't hurt anybody, whatever.
Whose dope is it whatever, and they can't pin it on anybody. I understand nobody's going to say nothing, right? But when it comes to a situation like you were in and the street might be talking or whatever, but somebody amongst the people that are talking has something substantive, or it wouldn't be continuing to be the narrative that they talk about. So what are your feelings on I mean, I know you're not pissed off anymore, which is remarkable, but what are your feelings on the people that remained silent and didn't just beat down the door saying, you got it wrong?
[00:53:36] Speaker B: No, like I told you, they tried to when you know that know, miscarriage of justice happened, and it happened in a fashion where you've never seen it.
Like they know who did it. The crazy part about it, derrick Ganison was the trigger man. He wanted to kill the Hispanic drug dealer. He went home crying to his girlfriend, telling her, I just robbed and killed this Hispanic drug dealer. What should I do? What should I do? His girlfriend told him, you need to go tell the police. But he said, no, wait a minute. This is what I want. I'm going to leave town. You go tell the police that your boyfriend confessed to you about killing this Hispanic drug dealer.
She went down and told the police that exact same thing. My boyfriend confessed to me that he's the one that robbed and killed that Hispanic drug dealer that you all got those two individuals in prison, in jail for.
You know what they told her? Get from down here. If you come back down here with that same statement, we're going to lock you up.
And she left and never said another word about it. Try to get her to testify at the trial. They told her, you bet not show up. You better not show up.
[00:54:59] Speaker A: That just makes me angry, though, because that's the crooked cop work right there. That's not just I'm lazy, I'm a crook.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: Exactly. That's what's happening. That's what always happened.
[00:55:12] Speaker A: And that should piss anybody off. So I know our audience is vastly diversified, and that should piss anybody off because there's no excuse for that kind of behavior, and it makes every cop look bad. And it's just such a shame. Man, I still can't believe this happened right in our backyard. I should believe it, but the more I hear, the more I rate I get about it.
[00:55:40] Speaker B: It's so crazy because me and Richard Mad, rich and Mad is another exonerate. He did 15 years, I did 13. We both on the same unit. Our cases happened two blocks away from each other. Two blocks. And we got exonerated 14 days apart.
[00:55:59] Speaker A: Really? Yes, because it was part of that same was it the DA, craig Watkins?
[00:56:04] Speaker B: Yeah. He looked out for it. Yeah. He was the first African American district attorney in the state of Texas history, and he became my DA. And it was like a breath of fresh air, because we never thought that this guy was going to win District Attorney. We like Dallas County african American. Are you crazy? Yeah. Really?
[00:56:26] Speaker A: Well, it would be a great county to get the votes and people will vote.
[00:56:30] Speaker B: Exactly. And when we seen it happen, you would have thought the prison I was on won a prison Super Bowl. Man, everybody went to Holland and jumping because we all knew now that we got somebody that understands what happened to African American men and women in the.
[00:56:49] Speaker A: Court advocate for you.
[00:56:50] Speaker B: We have somebody in a higher position, a position of power that can actually help the men and women that's in prison for crime they commit, didn't commit. And he got right to the point. He fired like seven to eight prosecutors and he told him, if I can bring all of you all up on charges, I would. Because what you all did to them individuals was criminal. It was criminal.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: I agree. That's why we talked about it and I think it should be criminal.
[00:57:20] Speaker B: Yeah. He was like, If I could lock you all up for it, I would, but I can't. Like, you all for it. All of you all fight. Get out my office. When I heard he did, I was like, man, we got somebody really is trying that has that compassion, that has that integrity, you know what I mean? That we need that we're looking for. We need leaders like that and had.
[00:57:40] Speaker A: The experience and knowledge of the culture to recognize how legitimate it was. Because there's so many people that spend time defending their position saying, Well, I'm not doing that and I know it happens, but whatever. And it keeps getting pushed aside.
[00:57:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: That's somebody that will stand up and say, well, I know for sure it's happening.
[00:57:59] Speaker B: I'm going to take their fight head on. You know what I mean? And he caught a lot of flag behind it because just imagine how much taxpayer money Dallas County had to pay and pay all of us over $100 million, over 100 million easily.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: And so kind of relating back to the other conversation, a lot of those folks that got out, how many during that period of time do you recall got out? There was a handful of you guys under the rock.
[00:58:29] Speaker B: Watkins over half of us, I would say out of the 75.
[00:58:42] Speaker A: So 30, 40 people during that yeah.
[00:58:45] Speaker B: During that period of time. And you know what? Majority of us was on the same unit, Cofield majority of us. You see them guys walk out? Yeah.
[00:58:55] Speaker A: I just wonder how many common denominators there were in getting those convictions from the beginning to the end. I just wonder how many there were so many.
How many of those folks who were perfectly innocent have gone back now just because of the time they spent in do you think it has distressed any people to the point where they weren't able to acclimate as well as you.
[00:59:18] Speaker B: The recidivism rate is high. Yeah, but I don't see it being high of men and women that was wrongfully convicted, okay? Because when we look at it, when I was in prison, I saw men come and go.
I'm like, I just need one chance. But I didn't see you come back in this almost 13 year. I didn't see you come back twice. You heard before, and I haven't got one opportunity to go home, right? Like, dude, once I go, I'm not coming back. I'm not going to put myself in a position to come back to this place again.
[00:59:56] Speaker A: Right?
[00:59:56] Speaker B: And when you seen it, you was like, what's wrong with the world? You all don't want to be outside where you're free, because in here, your life is being dictated every second on a second, people telling you what to do.
[01:00:12] Speaker A: But that's a level of integrity that you have, and you had a high level of integrity and character or whatever. You were independent and everything beforehand. And I just wonder about some of the other people that could have felt the trauma of the experience or gotten out and been so pissed off that they did something that actually justified something else. Have you ever looked into how many people have gone back, like, to prison?
[01:00:37] Speaker B: No. I've had individuals that go back to jail, but never to prison.
[01:00:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:00:45] Speaker B: The crew that I knew had drug addictions, you know what I mean? Before they went in and they got out, they got all this money, and next thing you know, you're back to filing that say, like, so now you got the money to really buy whatever amount of drugs you want to buy.
[01:01:02] Speaker A: But they didn't take the deterrence of prison like you did because you were like, man, even if I had money to buy drugs, I ain't going.
[01:01:10] Speaker B: It's not for me. No, it's not for me. And one of them is Stephen Phillips. He's in a documentary. A documentary. And we was like, this is what you really want to do. You just did 26 years for a crime you did not commit. And like, he said, he was kind of, like, medicating himself with drugs.
He said, that's what I felt like I had to do to get past it's. Just something that I couldn't get over with, you know what I mean? And I'm like, we're here to help you. We're here to do whatever we can to keep you safe, keep you out of harm's way, and make sure you don't go back to prison. So whatever we can do, we're here to help you.
[01:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, but he has to want to I mean, that's the addiction issue.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah. He has to be the one to make it happen for himself. And I don't know.
[01:02:04] Speaker A: He went back, right? Is he staying back?
[01:02:07] Speaker B: No, he hasn't been back to prison. He. Hasn't been back to jail. So he's good.
He's actually my landscaper. He got a small landscaping business now and he do landscaping for a lot of different people and he keeps my landscape looking really well.
[01:02:30] Speaker A: So speaking of money, regardless of the amount, it's got to be something reasonably substantial based on however long you were put in prison wrongfully. So was there any coaching or counseling at all available to you about, hey, whether it's a million, it's a 10 million, it's 20 million, it's 500,000.
[01:02:51] Speaker B: No, you don't have financial advisors again.
[01:02:53] Speaker A: You go away at 19 and then come back out. Can't even hardly drive yourself to the same grocery store because you don't know where you are, don't know how to use a phone. Then you have all this money. Do you see people just squander it because they just have no clue what they're doing?
[01:03:07] Speaker B: I think once you get that kind of money in your hands and after you spend your 1st $50,000, maybe 100 grand, if I keep spending like this, you got to have that mind frame. If I spend like this, I'm going to be broke.
[01:03:31] Speaker A: A lot of people don't they don't see the end.
[01:03:34] Speaker B: They don't see the end result. So what we do, we just come together and have meetings and we sit down and talk amongst one another like this is what we got to do. And you have people around you that tries to be there for you. If you don't need it, don't buy it. You know what I mean? It has to be a need, not a won't. You know what I mean? You got to need and not won't it. If it's a need, get it. If it's a won't, you don't need it.
[01:04:02] Speaker A: Yeah. It's hard to be that discerning when you have disposal. And I'm sure you have lots of people coming out of the woodwork saying, I can manage your money for you too. Which again, how are you supposed to tell if this person's another?
[01:04:14] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. So you just got to be able to read people and read them well and be like, look, I'm not stupid and I'm a long way from being dumb. So I know if I know how to put my money in the bank and put some in savings and some in my checking account, I'm not going to touch my savings, but whatever I have in my checking, that's what I live off of, you know what I mean? My savings is for responsible way to do it. Yeah. So majority of us was able to do that and majority of us now pretty much has exactly what we had when we got out. Homes. All of us purchased homes, which was good. It was a good investment.
[01:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
[01:05:02] Speaker B: We bought a couple of cars, clothes, because when we got out of prison, we had to start our whole life over again. We didn't have anything. We don't have support as of when parolees get out, you get a parole officer, they can help you find a job. They can help you find a place to live. But once you're exonerated, you just kicked out. And if you don't have nobody there, you just don't have nobody there. You know what I mean? But luckily, a lot of us had people that were still alive that were still willing to help us in our time, the needs. And we was able to get our head on straight, and we was able to make a good life for ourselves. We're doing now, is that part of.
[01:05:40] Speaker A: What Renewed Hope does for people? Or do you have organizations that you lean on for exonerates? I know there's not a ton of them coming out every day, but again.
[01:05:48] Speaker B: It could really no, it's just us having a brotherhood. Like, we're going to be there for each other. See, when I first got out, people helped me.
Some of the people had already been through what I was going to go through, but hadn't a lot of things changed? Because when I had to go try to get my ID, I had to take a newspaper clipping like, look, I just got out. I don't have any ID. Can you help me? And we have a social worker with us, and she's trying to help us as well. But we need some people back there behind that counter to have some compassion about what we just been through. Wasn't our fault. Our county did this to her. Could you have any kind of in your heart to help me do this? Because without this, I can't get the other one, you know what I mean? If you ain't got a birth certificate, you can't get ID. If you ain't got ID, you can't get a Social Security card. So it was like, we got to try to pay that way. So now it's kind of easy for the guys to get out in one or two or three of us and take time. Like, hey, this is what we're going to do today. Here's what we're going to do.
We're going to get all your identification you need.
We're going to make sure everybody give you a little piece of money until you be okay. Because what you need is everyday living utensils to make you help your transition be easier. We want you to have the boxes, the T shirt, the socks, the clothes you need, you know what I mean?
The basic intentions that you need to survive in the everyday life.
[01:07:31] Speaker A: So as far as me personally and or our audience, what are some of the things that are the most important that we could do to help you, whether it be you and your plight or exonerase in general, what are some things that we can do for you that would help your plight?
[01:07:50] Speaker B: If I ever reach out to you about just having a basic conversation, with one of them would be good because strangers helps a lot if you don't know a person. I feel like sometimes they can get through you quicker than anybody else can that, you know, you know what I mean? It's always good to have beat up to network with these individuals, you know what I mean?
Just try to let them know that, you know, life on the outside is good, you know, because, you know, being out here for a long time, we can help you guide yourself through this because you don't want to make a mistake that's going to send you back to prison. Yeah.
[01:08:39] Speaker A: And I know it can be frustrating too. So you need intervention early.
[01:08:42] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:08:43] Speaker A: And you need trusted people.
I'm at your disposal, man. You can call me anytime, anything that you need. And I know as many people as watch this that we have people with all kinds of different resources so that's know.
[01:08:56] Speaker B: Yeah. You want people to be able know, go to legislation with know, go to Austin and testify from the Housing committee in the House and Senate about bills that's going to help our criminal justice system or bills that's going to help people that's getting out of prison.
Because prison reform, it's hard to get prison reform. And in order to do it, you got to have a village of people to go down there and stress their frustrations about why the criminal justice system isn't better.
[01:09:31] Speaker A: So what specific legislation do you think is the most important? Because obviously I think what you're talking about, there are so many changes that are needed. Right. But what is the most important starting point, you think, for most of us?
[01:09:45] Speaker B: For one, I would say the death penalty.
I hate to see innocent people get executed because once they did, there's no bringing them back. Right? For sure.
Another thing is discovery.
Whatever the cops have, turn it over. Don't hide no evidence. Don't wait forever to turn it over to the prosecutor or try to hide evidence or plan evidence. The discovery package is the most important package because it's the thing that the police officer has.
[01:10:18] Speaker A: And it's required. And it's required talking about they need to follow the freaking rules. Follow the rules and not be crooked. If they're crooked, please give them the boot.
[01:10:27] Speaker B: Right.
[01:10:29] Speaker A: Change the laws about consequences.
[01:10:31] Speaker B: For that. You can't have a fair trial without discovery. Because if your defense attorney don't have what the cop have or the prosecution have, then you stuck out. Right. You know what I mean? It's like playing Russian roulette.
[01:10:44] Speaker A: Well, especially if they have evidence that is counter to that case, it can get you acquitted. Right.
[01:10:50] Speaker B: You know what I mean?
And another thing is like in the Richard Miles case, the same way I use his, for example, they had the information inside of the DA file.
They had it.
[01:11:03] Speaker A: That would have acquitted yeah, that would.
[01:11:05] Speaker B: Have acquitted him, but they didn't turn it over.
[01:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah, because it wasn't helpful to the case.
[01:11:10] Speaker B: It wasn't helpful to the case. And it's crazy how they use the law in a favor, but all the time play against it, you know what I mean? They'll tell you what you need to get this conviction overturned, but when you bring it to them, it's never enough. It's not enough.
[01:11:27] Speaker A: And that's just crooked law enforcement. And I agree with you there because again, nobody wants crooked cops. Even good cops, especially good cops, don't want crooked cops because again, it makes.
[01:11:40] Speaker B: All of them look bad, man.
[01:11:41] Speaker A: And nobody wants to be a cop these days, so I've already warned everybody, man, it's about to get worse before it gets better because all these smart people that you want to pay well and train, nobody wants to do that, right. Because it's such a job with so little thanks and appreciation at this point, man, we really need good people.
[01:12:04] Speaker B: Yeah, because people do not trust cops. And then that's the first thing people say when they pull a person over or snatch them out of their car or whatever. This is why we don't trust you all. Now, look how you all handing us.
[01:12:19] Speaker A: Do you have any of those issues? I mean, obviously not related to your case, but unrelated, do you have any of those issues or have you been pretty square?
[01:12:28] Speaker B: I think since I've been out, I've been lucky.
I probably got pulled over maybe two or three times.
And it's crazy because around my neighborhood, I drive my Mercedes S 550 and you see how cops look at you when you pass by? They look, they'd be looking or whatever, but when they get behind me and they pull out my license plates, my record is clean.
It's clean. So there's nothing you can do about it. But just because I'm going to pull you over just because so I can see who you is, you know what I mean? So now it's like I don't even get bothered anymore. Well, that's good.
[01:13:19] Speaker A: There's some hope.
[01:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And I love it. Just don't pull me over just to pull me over have a reason, because I'm not going to give you a reason to pull me over because I'm going to follow the law. Yeah.
[01:13:30] Speaker A: Do you think that has a lot to do with your economic disposition now versus if you were poor in a black neighborhood?
[01:13:39] Speaker B: Even before I went to prison, I didn't have a lot of money, you know what I mean? I worked day per day, but I followed the law even then. But look what happened, I still was wrongfully convicted.
Even if you are following the law, the things like that still happens, you know what I mean? Even if you follow the law.
[01:14:04] Speaker A: Well, the one thing I noticed that we've gotten away from, which I'm grateful for, and not in every place, but in a lot of places is they don't do personal eyewitness accounts as often. I mean, they will leverage them, but if you have a single eyewitness, like in your case, there are a lot of places that won't necessarily get a conviction based on a human eyewitness. They don't do as many lineups anymore with a person saying, yes, I think it was that person, or whatever, because of cases like yours where they've realized how easy someone can be mistaken and how easy it would be to say, don't you think you should look at this guy again? Or whatever. Just lends itself to the situations where you could be intimidated into making the wrong decision.
[01:14:50] Speaker B: They made it more easy to do it now because if you in a room where it's just a cop and the individual because you know it's supposed to be another cop or somebody that's less biased than this individual in the room.
[01:15:09] Speaker A: Yeah, not doing the investigation.
[01:15:11] Speaker B: Not doing the investigation. So now it's like Johnny Linza made Rest in Peace, was my best friend six picture photo lineup. Now, the rapist was a guy used to rape without a shirt on. His thing was not having a shirt on. So what did they do? Put Johnny Lindsay in the 6th picture lineup with no shirt on.
See, they make it's easy. So now she's oh, the guy with no shirt on. But the crazy part about that is she still picked the wrong person. She didn't pick Johnny. She picked somebody else.
So they have their ways of still doing it. And they were like, no, you got to pick the right person. He started tapping on the picture. He's like, oh, yeah, okay, that's him.
[01:16:01] Speaker A: Right?
[01:16:02] Speaker B: So it's supposed to be six pictures at all time. Sometimes they take a picture out and just have five up there.
These are tactics that they do to get the person who they really so now, you know, you got to have somebody in there standing beside now. But we got this law change called a double blind standard. US. Exonerase went down to Austin and got this change. So now the arresting officer can no longer be in the room with the person who's doing the lineup.
[01:16:36] Speaker A: Can't be in it, the arresting officer or the investigating detective.
[01:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah, they can't be in there.
[01:16:41] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah, you can't be in there.
[01:16:45] Speaker A: So you got to have two crooks to make it work.
[01:16:48] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:16:48] Speaker A: At least it makes it to where, look, this guy's crooked, but the whole team of people, somebody's bound to just do this with integrity, right?
[01:16:57] Speaker B: You would hope, man.
[01:16:59] Speaker A: You can only hope.
How's your son doing, by the way?
[01:17:02] Speaker B: He's good. He has five more months and he'll be home free.
[01:17:06] Speaker A: Very good.
[01:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah, he's doing good.
He got a couple of degrees while he was in prison. He also got his barber license. He cuts her in prison as well.
[01:17:17] Speaker A: Do you get a state license in there?
[01:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:17:19] Speaker A: All right.
[01:17:20] Speaker B: Yeah, you can go to school for it. Yeah.
[01:17:22] Speaker A: Good.
[01:17:22] Speaker B: So he's good at that. So he's just ready to come home and take her, his ten year old son.
[01:17:31] Speaker A: So you're about to have less on your hands when he gets out, or more on your hands?
[01:17:37] Speaker B: I would hope to say less, you know what I mean? Because I've been raising his son since he was like, three years old, you know what I mean? So it's time for his dad to come home and raise his own son. I forever being involved in my grandson's life, of course. Nothing to change. But this is your dad. I'm not your dad. I'm your granddad. I'm the one they drop you off to on the weekends, you know what I mean? And I can bring them back when I want to bring them back, like it's not my kid. I get to give you a bunch of candy for you, but now I can send you back home. So, yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to doing.
[01:18:15] Speaker A: That good for you, man.
[01:18:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:18:17] Speaker A: Thank you so much for sitting down with us again and again.
[01:18:19] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
[01:18:20] Speaker A: If there's something that I can do for you, man, I hope you feel comfortable enough to reach out to me because I'll help you any way I can, anytime you need it, all right?
[01:18:27] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. My pleasure.
[01:18:28] Speaker A: All right, man.
[01:18:29] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:18:30] Speaker A: Thanks.
What's? It gate. What you going to do? What you're going to do? Successor other than second grade rules a confident faith to make you do make you do what they want when they won't be the fool a diplomatic face is the one to see you through don't let those figures take you off you came adjust a lot of them loose sit here in the front seat baby, ain't that sweet? Take a little honey from the money be but don't pay the fool.
[01:19:15] Speaker B: A.
[01:19:15] Speaker A: Political magical potion a missing piece at the end of the game a slow roll see the truth and soul motion I never found a 63 like between blurry lines if you gonna call me.
