Barry Seal's Son Forgave His Father's Assassins | Guest: Aaron Seal

[00:00:00] Speaker A: My dad worked for the CIA. He worked for the White House. He worked for the cartel. All those things are historically accurate. So, yeah, I was being watched by the FBI, but I didn't know it. My dad was still my hero, but I just. I had to, you know, I don't know at what point I had to come to terms with it. But he wasn't doing it just out of selfish reasons. He was doing that, taking those chances to help his family. How can I really hold that against him? So I called dad's cell phone, and dad always answered. He didn't answer, which I thought was kind of strange. And maybe five minutes later, my mom comes running down the steps of the house, a little breezeway. Get the kids in the car. Get the kids in the car. Barry's been shot. Barry's been shot. And they pulled up a car and the spot right next to her D would park. He grabs the machine gun, just steps around from the trunk and let him up. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Aaron was nine years old when they killed his father. Barry Seal, the smuggler, CIA informant, the man the American made movie was written about. Aaron grew up inside the open secret. Then he did the unthinkable. He hunted down the men who pulled the trigger and forgave them. This is his story. I'd love to start somewhere interesting because everybody loves puppy dogs. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:04] Speaker B: And if you would tell us a little bit about the story about Tailspin and how you ended up. [00:01:10] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Retrieving that puppy dog. [00:01:12] Speaker A: You did your homework. I like that. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:14] Speaker A: So, yeah, it was one day when my dad was still alive. I was, I don't know, maybe 7 years old. I guess I had to stay home from school from something that day. Oh, I guess I. I wasn't too sick because I. I may have felt sick in the morning then. Then later on my dad was flying up to Mina and so I. Obviously they thought I felt good enough to go with him. I guess mom wanted me out the house, so I went up to flip a dad to mean it for the day. Usually my brother would have been, you know, we would have been there with me, but he was at school. It was the time if you. They have a. When dad did an interview with John Camp. It's on Channel 2 News. A lot of people have seen on YouTube it's called the murder of a witness. And they had all, you know, this, this interview the dad did. And it was a day they were flying up to meeting with. With the. The Channel 2 News reporter John Camp to take some. Some film of the dad C.123, the famous fat plane called the Fat lady, taking off and landing for. For John's news story. So I went up there, and then it was dad and the. And. And John Camp, the reporter, and a couple other men. And as they're getting the plane ready to take off, everything I knew just to make myself scarce, you know, So I went over to the hangar, and I always love dogs. They had a pack of wild dogs out there. So I started playing when they. I mean, they were. They were feral. They were. They, you know, mangy and fleas and stuff. And they were so hungry, I was. They were eating cockroaches off the ground in the hangar. And it broke my heart. So when I was like, dad, can I get some. Some change for the. For the vending machine? He. He carried five hundred, five thousand quarters or thousand dollars of quarters on him at all time for payphones. So me gave you handfuls of change. So I go to the vending machines and I'm buying and feeding the dogs. I bought the vending machines out, you know, feeding the dog. They just wolfed it all down. They loved it. And when I ran. When the food ran out, they all took off and left, and one of the dogs stayed. So I was like, oh, she must not. She liked me for more than the food or she just wants, you know, she really, really wants some more down the road. And I played with the whole day. And then we were. We were going to leave that night, we flying home on that Learjet. And, you know, I asked him, could I have the dog? He's like, yeah, you can. You can have her. And I named her Tailspin. I don't know if it was that day or later on, but because her tail spun directly, like in a circle, more than I'd seen any other dog do it. So I was going to tailspin for that reason. And I didn't think about it. Dad loved it because of the plane. The airplane pilot reference of a plane going into a tailspin. [00:03:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:18] Speaker A: So, yeah, he told me I could keep her. And his friends are with him. The guys were flying back with, like, you're letting you let your son put that dog on the. On the. On your Learjet. You know, you really get dizzy. [00:03:27] Speaker B: Yeah. What's the dog? [00:03:28] Speaker A: You have the dog. [00:03:28] Speaker B: Mangy dog. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So we put on the plane, flew home, and she was. She was my first love. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Oh, I love it. Yeah, that's an interesting story too. And they were doing a news story on him because he was just a local pilot at the Time? [00:03:40] Speaker A: No, it was when the allegations were coming, coming out about, about drug smuggling and stuff and the, the feds in Baton Rouge were playing we're doing some dirty things and they're breaking the law to, to try to put charges on him. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:51] Speaker A: And so my dad went to John Camp who was a award winning journalist. He, after that he ended up going to work for cnn. Local investigative journalists don't have a lot, a lot of credibility and a lot of, you know, a lot of okay, you know, he, he had brought down a lot of got stuff on dirty politicians before and things like that and he did some stuff with Jimmy Swaggart. I think he broke some stuff news on the Jimmy Swagger stuff back in the day. The preacher and so my dad just showed up at his house and believed he would, he would look into the story. Even though the allegations of my dad were well known. John knew my dad, you know, knew my dad was, he knew what people said about him. And, but he said look, you know, basically if a federal prosecutor in, in, in this, in Baton Rouge is breaking the law and committing a felony in order to catch a felon that he can't catch that, that, that needs to be spoken about too, you know. So he, he's dad did a sit down interview with him and that, you know, dad denied drug smuggling. He said, yeah, I'm an airplane salesman. I broke airplanes all over the world. Basically. Basically, basically you said I'm a drug dealer but you can't prove it and they're breaking the law to try to prove it. And that was, so that was the news. [00:04:50] Speaker B: Okay. And he just trusted that guy. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Yeah, he trusted that John Camp would, would, would, you know, would do the story and he did. And then when dad was killed right after he did a, another story follow up called Murder of a Witness. Right. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Okay. So, and he wasn't just. So is he a pilot your entire, his entire, your entire life, was he a, a pilot as well? [00:05:10] Speaker A: Oh yeah, he, he has pilot's license. He was flying solo flights when he was 15 years old. [00:05:14] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:15] Speaker A: So 16. He had his pilot lice. [00:05:16] Speaker B: And he wasn't just flying planes, he was flying helicopters too. So I, I, I would love to hear more about the helicopter rides because seems like at a certain point, because you're kind of coming of age where a lot of this stuff is coming into consciousness in terms of realizing what he's doing as an adult. Right. But as, but living as a kid when he's doing these helicopter rides and, and only like whatever a third or A half of the kids are even allowed to go on the helicopter ride. Do you think that was because of his reputation or was it because a helicopter ride might be deemed a dangerous. [00:05:49] Speaker A: Probably a little bit of both. Probably some just thought, I don't care who it is, I don't want my child going in a helicopter. And then probably another third of the people said they're not going to ride in a helicopter with somebody's on the news for being a drug dealer. And then, you know, another third, like, hey, the kids, let the kids have fun. You know. [00:06:04] Speaker B: Was that a point where you started realizing there was something different about it? [00:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I always knew your dad's a pilot. You know, I knew. That's why I thought we had airplanes and helicopters around. You know, my dad's the middle brother, Ben. He was a. He was a helicopter pilot too, at a helicopter company. So they were just. I, at first, I just assumed that's what you get with a family that's in aviation like this. You know, Dad's a pilot for helicopters and airplanes. Uncle Ben's a helicopter pilot. Uncle Wendell, I think, even had his, the younger brother at one time had his, his helicopter license. There was just. I just thought that that's what came with the territory. [00:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:34] Speaker A: But then when, when we do. When we. One day. I don't have that arranged that. But he had the food out. Our elementary school called the little park across the street, and how the kids came over to, you know, the. Who were allowed to take helicopter rides. And I started realizing it was a little different that day to see how, how fascinated everyone else was with. With their airplanes, with helicopters. Because to us, it was, you know, we would take the helicopter to, you know, 30 miles down the road to my grandma's house, you know, my mom's mom on, you know, on the weekend. So I didn't think anything of it. To me, it's just like getting in the car to go somewhere. So I started realizing, okay, this is, this is a unique situation that I'm. That I'm being brought up. [00:07:09] Speaker B: What state, what city and state is this? [00:07:11] Speaker A: Baton Rouge, Louisiana. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Baton Rouge. [00:07:13] Speaker A: I still live there. [00:07:14] Speaker B: Did you feel like you were being watched at the point once, once he starts developing his reputation, did you feel like you were being watched or was there ever anybody that was over, like family, friends or whatever that you later realized maybe that wasn't just a normal average Joe at my house? [00:07:29] Speaker A: Well, for one, I didn't feel like I was being watched at this time. But this is like 5 years ago I met a gentleman who's a. He's a. Now he's a private investigator that I'd use, but he. When he was working, like his younger years, he was the head of the FBI's Financial Crimes Office in Arkansas. And he told me when we became. When we met, we became friends. He said, yeah, I used to. I've been. I. We looked for the pictures, but he couldn't find him. He said at one time still had pictures of you and your brother playing on the. On the. At the airport. I mean, Arkansas. As I. When I was the FBI agent, we were in the woods filming your dad and his guys out there. And we had pictures of you and your brother out there playing. Y' all were hunting for snakes, whatever y' all were doing. He looked for me. He couldn't find them for me. [00:08:08] Speaker B: Oh, man. You had tailspin on video. [00:08:10] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. So. So yeah, I was being watched by the FBI, but I didn't know it. A funny story. I've never shared this kind of goofy, but years later, when I realized the scope of what. Who dad was and what he was into, and I'm. And I'm thinking. Thinking back and hear my mom talking about how, you know, dad always used payphones because the phones our house were always tapped. You know, So I started realizing me and my brother, when we were little kids, we're growing up in dad's little loft office at our house. We were going up his office, our friends and making prank calls and calling neighbors and calling people the phone book and said some crazy stuff as kids. And the FBI, the whole time is hearing all this. I'm like, they must. There's no. Yeah, they're telling what they thought it was. [00:08:48] Speaker B: That would be awesome. You know, it's on Microfish somewhere too. That'd be great to go get that. [00:08:52] Speaker A: I'd be horrified if that ever came out. Yeah, the, The, The. The. The language we were using at that age and just the things we were. Or calling our girlfriend, asking her out, you know, and calling on three way whatever. You know, like just an FBI agent sitting there somewhere rolling his eyes. [00:09:06] Speaker B: What would. What would be something about your dad that would surprise people based on, you know, because people just kind of know. [00:09:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:13] Speaker B: His criminal past. He. [00:09:15] Speaker A: He could do. He could do the best Donald Duck voice. He, he, he. The. The talk like, you know, the. The way I can't do it, but the Donald Doug voice. And he would do it, so. He did so well, there's several people still this day, men his age, that I still Know one, one passed away, one still out that they, they brag about that they, my dad taught them how to speak like Donald Duck when they were kids. And they still do it to this day, really well. [00:09:39] Speaker B: And I'm an old man too. I don't, I don't know how old would he be now? [00:09:43] Speaker A: I was born in 39. [00:09:44] Speaker B: So, okay, 80 something six. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean Donald Duck was, you know, Mel Blanc was doing all those voices and even when I was coming up. Yeah, we were still doing that. As long as the, your cartoon basis, Warner Brothers. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Maybe the young people don't know who Donald Duck is anymore. [00:10:02] Speaker B: Probably not. Probably not. [00:10:04] Speaker A: Dad was a very loving person, very giving person, very family oriented man. You know, I don't know how much people know about that. He was, you know, with countless stories of the help that dad would give to random, random strangers. You know, I really learned to, I learned this at a young age too. And I think it may have always been in me because I'm a kind of a caretaker by nature and I'm kind of a protective individual just by nature. But I learned at a very young age that you all, you, when you see people in peril, if it's a stranger, you always, you help them. And this was, I, I, this was etched into my mind. This must have been Christmas of, I think it was Christmas morning. Maybe like, I don't know, 82, 83 or maybe even earlier. I was very young. We had went to my, my, the, my dad, the middle brother, Uncle Ben. We went to his, his house, his family's house, Christmas, Christmas Day, I guess to deliver some presents to him or something. And it was real early in the morning. We were leaving and going back to our house on Jefferson highway in Baton Rouge where it meets Airline Highway. Some guy looks like this, her dad say this. It made sense. It looked like the guy had gotten this Honda Gold Wing motorcycle. That must have been a Christmas present because it was brand new. And I think he may just have a rib around the front of it. And when he was coming on that lane to merge, there was, there was no cars around that we saw. We pulled up right, right here, just wrecked. The guy laid the bike down on the road and it was, bike was brand new. I was, I believe it still had a ribbon. And he was, he was torn up. He couldn't move. To me it looks like he was dying. I don't know if he lived or died, but we were the first car on the scene and dag out told, you know, told my mom, keep the kids in the car. And he went over there and tended to the guy, held his hand, got down his knees, covered in the guy's blood, and stayed there until the paramedics got there and then got back to the car and drove us home. And so that. That's something that. That dad would never pass, walk past someone that he saw that was in. In jeopardy that he could help. And that's something that. That was etched into my, you know, my psyche and stayed with me still to this day. [00:11:49] Speaker B: So you. You frame him kind of. I mean, look, it's your dad, so you're biased. And reasonably so, because there's always two sides to everybody, and everybody makes mistakes, too. So how do you kind of own both him being a hero and being a criminal at the same time? Is there, you know, is there any conflict that you've been through? You said you've been arrested and stuff. Is that even a result of maybe some turmoil over all that? [00:12:16] Speaker A: My arrest? No, no, the, the. Well, I mean, it wouldn't be. The, the most of my arrests were for. For battery and fighting and stuff when I was in college age and drinking and going to bars and, you know, but I, I, you know, I. I can't ever remember starting to fight in my life if I had it, maybe one or two, if, you know, that I thought was necessary. People always want to fight with me, and so I just would oblige them, you know. [00:12:36] Speaker B: You just got that kind of face, huh? [00:12:38] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think it was the name. It was Hangover for that. They would hear my name and they wanted to. It gave people if they. Yeah, they wanted to beat Aaron Seal up or something, and that would give them some credibility. And so I, I win the fight, and then I go to jail for it. Even though, you know, the police gave me a hard time for a long time, which I thought that was petty. I still kind of. Still kind of bothers me because I thought it was kind of immature. You know, a cop that didn't like my dad would kind of use that against me. [00:13:04] Speaker B: That's strange to me. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Kind of weird. [00:13:06] Speaker B: I mean, I believe it, but it's. [00:13:07] Speaker A: But it's strange to me, too. There was a rumor on tail because I'd get a lot of trouble, but I'd always get out of it because my mom would hire me a really good attorney and. But they would never offer me a deal. I had to almost take everything to trial. And she would win these trial, you know, these trials. There was a room around town that I Had diplomatic immunity because of what happened to my dad. Some, some kids came up with this idea that I could do whatever I want short of rape or murder, and get out of it because the government owed us for what they did, what they, you know, what they allowed to happen to my dad. That was not true. The cops actually were much harder on me. I wasn't getting favors from them, you know, and I was like, I wish I could get this diplomatic community. Where are they selling that at? [00:13:43] Speaker B: So how did you square the. The hero versus criminal? Because as you, you know, this took time. Right, so you're. [00:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah, well, so, yeah, when, when I find out exactly it was. Was killed and we're family at the house, my mom and your family, and everybody's there, and, and they're, they're talking about that on the news, and then they're sending a drug dealer, con or convicted drug dealer, whatever. There's word and language, and that's the first time it really resonated. Okay, this is, this is. Dad must have really done this. And so I turned up my mom and I said, mom, is that what true, what they're saying about that? And she said, yeah, yeah. And it is. So it, it didn't. It didn't. My dad was still my hero, but I, I just, I had to, you know, I don't know what point I, I had to come to terms with it, but just. Yeah, I know he was doing it. He, he wasn't doing it just out of selfish reasons that gave, Gave money away hand over fist. He, if he was doing that, taking those chances to help his family, how can I really hold that against someone? And someone. Yeah, he made, he, he made a mistake. If he could go back and he knew it would cost him his life at that age, surely he wouldn't have done it. He, he took a chance to, to, to take a shortcut in life to, to, to, to help his family and help other people. He didn't see it as that much of a harm, and it was going on anyway. I could see how he could justify it. And then he, you know, it obviously was mistaken. He paid with his life for that mistake, and then the rest of us who survived it, we've paid for his mistake also for all, you know, so long. So other people's opinions on it really don't matter. You know, I think there's a lot of hypocrisy in the world. You know, people say, oh, they could point, point him and judge that, you know, but, you know, I don't, I Don't. I don't, I don't see it as so black and white a lot, a lot of gray areas. [00:15:19] Speaker B: There's a version of this that doesn't make it here. The part I only send to the mailing list community early before it goes anywhere else. Free links in the description for those who want to be on the inside, of course. And that's what I'm kind of trying to dig at too because I, you know, in my experience too, I ran into a lot of people that, you know, that were for better or worse, they're street gang members and they're doing drive bys and they're whatever, whatever ruckus they're causing, they're also doing it for the family, you know, they're trying to just support their family, you know. [00:15:50] Speaker A: And that's one thing that was different about that that I think helps is would it be harder for me to just, to justify his behavior if he was violent. Dad was not violent at all. He would, he would, he would, he wouldn't harm a fly. He would never have. He. One of the reasons he would get, he got arrested. All these conspiracy charges put against him. These people who put his name into things that he wasn't that, you know, and I don't even know who he's even involved in the, in the actual charges they got against him though. He was a drug smuggler. He could have those people killed with, for, for nothing if you want to do with the cartel he was working with. He would never have done that. He would never have have have had, you know, one of the, his old friends of his that was, that was, had lied with the police and signed a false affidavit. He brought dad some cocaine. He, he could have had the guy just killed instantly, you know, with no, no question, not even a page, just a phone call. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:37] Speaker A: And he would never have done that. And so he, he, you know that he would, he would, he was. If he would have been out there having people murdered and stuff. It may have been harder for me to, to, to justify that. [00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I understand. And did, did he, I guess through your mom or anybody ever say anything regretful about. And I asked Roger this same type of thing because you know, you're, you're right, you can be, especially when you're nonviolent, you feel like you're not causing harm, but obviously, and you've even said it, so I'm not trying to challenge you here at all. But you know, obviously he made a mistake and he wouldn't have Done it again. But if you're feeding the animal, you know, if you're supporting Escobar's operation, then, you know, then when Escobar is, you know, murdering 10,000 people, then you're still a part of the call. You're a cog in the. In the game. [00:17:27] Speaker A: I'm sure dad looked. I'm sure he compartmentalized it. It's like, well, I'm just. I'm just delivering this here. I would never do that, that they're going to be doing, that they're going to be sending hits on people and doing things they do, whether I'm here or not. You know, if it's me or if it's Roger, if it's. If it's Tegan, you know, if it's Aaron, when he gets old enough, somebody's going to be. Somebody's going to be doing this and making the money. So why not me? I'm gonna do it for a little while and help my family, help do some good in the community and step away. And, you know, I'm not. I'm not asking for anybody to be hurt, even the people that I probably should or that I'm allowing them to. So I'm sure that's how you justify. I mean, I don't know how many people. I don't think I've ever spoken this, but it's written in places. My. My grandpa was alcoholic. Later, at the end of his life, my dad's dad. And so I don't know this. I didn't ever heard my mom say this or obviously, or my dad say it, but I just. As I've made my way through life, I could see how dad would look at. At the hypocrisy of. There's the alcohol that his father was drinking that caused so many problems at home. That's legal, quote, unquote. And he goes, drives. The storm, buys this. But you're telling me that this little powder that I bring to somebody, that a whole lot less people doing it, you know, and there's a whole lot less consequences happening in people's lives from it, if we want to be honest about it. And at one time, the alcohol was illegal, and the Kennedys, the Kennedy family had the, The. When the prohibition was in, they had the. The boats lining up at the docks. They made a four, you know, generational wealth off of it. How is that any different than what. These drugs are likely going to be legal one day as well? Right? So I could see him looking at that like, you're going to tell me that y' all can sell this to my. [00:18:56] Speaker B: The. [00:18:56] Speaker A: His. His dad, my papa at home, but this is. This is. This is a score. This is a scourge and an abomination to God. You know, I can say, come on, I'm going to make some money off of. Just like the Kennedys did. We'll let this. We'll let the chips fall where they may, right? [00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Now, again, that's just my way of I could look back and see how that could be. [00:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah, dudes. Dudes are good at compartmentalizing emotionally anyway, so. So I can see that. You know, I just didn't know if you'd heard much detail because obviously at 9 or whatever, it's, you know, difficult for you to. [00:19:26] Speaker A: My mom, the one time she, she. When they're older. So, you know, at what point did you know what dad was doing? And she said the first, she didn't, you know, she didn't know anything. And when she started, you started, you know, bringing home a lot of money and she. Stuff she said when she questioned him. He's, you know, he was from a different generation. Her. He was older than her. And he said, look, you're not going to, you know, she started suspecting what he's doing. She wanted to stop. He said, look, one thing my wife will never tell me is how I'm going to make a living. So that a lot of things you're going to tell me is my wife, I'm a listen to. But if you think you tell me how to make a living, that's not going to happen. You know, so she's got, I think, two kids with me at the time, a third coming. What was she gonna do? Like, oh, you know. And so she said at some point as we were getting older, she said, so, Barry, what are you going to tell you? What are you going to tell your kids one day? How you made your money? One day the kids are gonna be old enough, you know, we're not. You're not gonna just brush aside. What are you gonna tell your kids one day if they ask you if you're a drug dealer? And he. I don't. I don't remember if she. I don't remember. What if he didn't have an excuse for. I think. I think it was. Well, I'll be. I'll. This will be over with by then, and I'll. I'll deal with that. At the time. [00:20:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:30] Speaker A: So he wasn't proud of it. He wasn't. He wasn't. He didn't think it was an honorable profession in the way I guess you know but he didn't see it it was he just didn't see he just didn't see was causing all that much harm then it was going to be going on anyway and that's kind of [00:20:43] Speaker B: proof that he really didn't think it through a whole lot. [00:20:45] Speaker A: No I'm sure it was just. [00:20:46] Speaker B: Or else it would have made sense I never thought of my kids and [00:20:50] Speaker A: you would think like just for example you know I got into drug smuggle myself wasn't on that level I think I used to drive to Mexico and pick stuff up and appeals home and drive home and sell arrested for it one time and I didn't even even from the from the history I came from and know what my dad had done I I justified as it well it's not cocaine, it's not heroin it's not anything that that you know that that's all that bad. It's just Valiums basically you know sleeping pills. Nobody, nobody I don't know anybody ever harmed themselves with this you know people take it to, to you know to, to relax in the evening and so I didn't, I didn't I you know and it wasn't until I had some spiritual experience in my life that I started thinking about well you know what where do these pills go Because I'm not really taking much of my friends don't like who who's who who's this who's actually purchasing this pill for for Tuscan wholesale who's actually buying it for for street value and where's it going I so is probably end up with some, Some you know 15 year old kid's mouth at a party at a high school party and then I wasn't comfortable with that anymore so I stopped right I don't think dad ever thought that far enough through it and again you know he was hey you can pay me this to fly this here it was you know he was a logistics expert a transportation expert he just saw first he was flying weed and oh paid me this and this bulky and smells oh you can pay me this Is this a lot smaller for this cocaine and 10 times the price? Sure where do I drop it off and he just never right you know when he and when the the arrest and things started happening he started working with the feds you know he had said look you know I was on the wrong side of things you know in his opinion he said yeah I was when it's all peace and love and Hippie stuff when I got into this and now I realize that it's not. And maybe I've been working for the wrong side. So, you know, he, and he's, you know, he put all his all in to work with the feds and you know, they said that, you know, he went for the presidential, for the presidential President's Award. If he'd have been a DEA agent and not a cooperating witness, he would have been, he would have been the recipient of the highest award the DEA gives out, which is the presidential something award. And, and John Camp, that reporter in the interview you did at the end, he said, look, Barry Seal at the beginning of his life made some mistakes. He did things that, you know, that he, John Camp felt was, was horrendous. He said, but, you know, there's tons of D agents and federal officials that would line up and say that when Barry Seal was making amends for what he, for the wrongs he did, end of his life, he did so with great courage. [00:23:00] Speaker B: That's great. And that's great. That's, I mean, that's part of the reason we're here. Obviously want to know about you too and how you were affected. But that's great to know both sides of the man because that's the side that doesn't ever get told. It's, it's the least robust headline. Right. That he was actually a great dude and he shared the wealth or whatever. Whether it's compartmentalized or not thought through, whatever mistake, it wasn't necessarily indicative wholly of his character, what you're saying. [00:23:27] Speaker A: Correct. [00:23:28] Speaker B: So how much of that. So I didn't know about you doing little, miniature little smuggling operations. How, how much of him is in you in retrospect? I mean, now you're a grown man too, so you have a lot better ability to look back and recognize some of those things. [00:23:43] Speaker A: Okay. And so what I'm talking about how much of him is in me. [00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah, me. And as, I mean in terms, just behaviorally, you know, how much, how much of his character and you know, maybe some of the early risk taking or, you know. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Well, I definitely have the risk taking side. Yeah, his risk taking. So I'd like to think I have his charm and charisma too, because he was very charming and charismatic. I didn't, I never wanted to get into smuggling drugs at all. I didn't, you know, I was against even using drugs, you know, when I, when I was younger because not being my dad never used drugs. But I just saw what being involved with drugs did, you know, hurt the pain and caused my family. So that was something I was against. Then I had friends that started smoking pot, so I was willing to try that. And then smoking pot and taking pills and that, you know, lsd, whatever, just put the party drugs. And I started. I used cocaine. That's one thing I've never, would never sell. I've never even. I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I've never received $1 for a line of cocaine in my life. I just, I knew the friends that started selling coke or make some money. I said, you know, what if, if Aaron Seal gets caught, transaction of cocaine business in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, they will build a new prison and they will bury me under that prison. I was like, if the cops don't like it because I'm getting fist fights and that because my last name, if cocaine arrest is ever charged to attack to that name. I just had the wisdom somehow at that age to know I use cocaine, but I would never sell it. You want to keep it, take it free. I don't know, I'm not selling cocaine. But the pills to me, again, I justified is what's not that big of a deal. And I wouldn't, I didn't want to get into drug dealing. I, I was, had stopped going to college to. Took a job that I thought was going to be a lifelong career. The company kind of went under from the, the, the owners had some issues and company went under. So all of a sudden I'm looking at, you know, taking all these bills at a truck note and had rent and all this stuff that I, you know, that. And I had some friends that had been going to Mexico. So, you know, I said I'll, I'll take the little savings I have and just, just double the money one time just so I can pay my bills off until, until I find another job fair. I want to do or go back to school. There's okay, I'm gonna go back to school. So it'd be nice to not have to work while I'm in school, you know, because a lot of my other friends, their parents are still fun to them. They don't work. So I could just let me just double it one more time. And then when we lost a load, so now I gotta start over. And then next thing you know, and then, then I started using a lot of drugs to kind of kill that voice in my head that what I was doing maybe wasn't the best, you know, the best road. So I became a drug addict and started shooting. I was Injecting Dilaudid was my drug of choice and so I'm addicted to Dilaudid, which or I'm sure you know because of your experience. But we were paying 20 a piece for them on the streets and I was doing 20 to 30 of them in a day. So my drug habit was so astronomical I had to continue the Mexico thing just to, just to pave my own drug habit. So then at some point I realized well you, I, I even, even if I was completely clear headed doing this, I'm likely going to get caught. I got caught once. I'm you know, five years probation for that. And so I knew that I'm going to get caught again. Even if sober minded there's the likelihood of getting caught as high. If I'm getting, getting this messed up, I'm definitely going to make some mistakes and get caught. And then I'm in prison for the next 10, 15 years. [00:26:43] Speaker B: The each day just creates more chance that it's going to end. [00:26:46] Speaker A: So I finally just stopped selling the drugs and said when I run out of the cash and can't buy any more pills to shoot up, I'll just deal with that then. And so that day came and it took me about a dec to finally overcome that. [00:26:57] Speaker B: But, but to overcome the addiction. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:01] Speaker B: Yeah man. Well congratulations getting out of that because that's, yeah. [00:27:05] Speaker A: I lost a lot of friends along the way. A lot. [00:27:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Addicts. I mean you don't know. I mean you're, you're in a different space, right? [00:27:12] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. [00:27:13] Speaker B: You got any of those friends back? [00:27:16] Speaker A: Got them back, yeah. [00:27:17] Speaker B: Get any of those friends back? I mean obviously you behave like a, like a monkey for 10 years straight up. [00:27:23] Speaker A: I lost. They, they died. I was in my bill. I've lost probably. I stopped counting on 50 people I know that died from drugs and alcohol or related incidents from it. I see a few went to prison but then we have the ones with the prison got back, got out. The ones that stayed didn't go to prison. A lot of them done. [00:27:39] Speaker B: So do you think. So you're saying a lot of, a lot of the motivation for you, especially in college age, which I think, you know, lots of people might consider getting into something nefarious at a small scale but you're just probably thinking bigger because you have access. Maybe. But do you think it was more about the money or more about the adventure? Which kind of goes back to my. [00:27:58] Speaker A: It was both. I started about the money. I wanted to go and just you know, said just double 22, 2500 I had saved from work. And I was like, and I can go double this overnight, least double it. So it was just about what the first. But then I enjoyed, I started enjoying the, you know, they would say the cat and mouse game. I started, you know, it was always, it always made you nervous. It was a little scary what happens if I get caught. But it was also kind of, you know, the thrill of doing it. But, you know, when you got, when I would get home to Baton Rouge after, you know, we drive the boards like nine, ten hours from my house. You drive there, maybe spend the night there, drive everything back when you get back from that trip. And you know, you got, you know, 20, $30,000 in the, in the back of the car as soon as you land handed off to people. It's pretty thrilling, you know, and all. And, and just the, the, the logical reality of all my. Everything's covered right now financially, I'm taking care of at least for a little while. You know, it's a good feeling. And at that age and felt like I was, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe taking a shortcut or two in life. And I didn't think that it was nefarious. I didn't think that I was trying to do anything wrong. I'm just trying to get my bills paid, figure life out. And I went back to school to, you know, to take a po. To take some poetry classes. I started writing poetry. And so I thought that was an honorable thing to do. I thought, nobody's getting hurt by this. [00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I understand. And you're a kid, you know, 22, [00:29:11] Speaker A: 23, and if you. [00:29:12] Speaker B: There weren't a risk of getting caught, then all that thrill doesn't exist anyway. Right. So I can understand the risk of getting caught is even some of the work I did. I mean, the risk of me getting caught two makes it twice as exciting. [00:29:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:25] Speaker B: So. [00:29:25] Speaker A: And you kind of get addicted to that, as I'm sure, you know. Absolutely get it, that adrenaline rush. [00:29:29] Speaker B: I can completely relate. And I'm sure a lot of the agents that work with your dad could, could say the same thing, that some points of the work, I mean, there's lots of investigatory ancillary stuff, and not everybody does really long term undercover type stuff, but so a lot of guys, [00:29:43] Speaker A: when you were doing that, did. You were addicted to the adrenaline rush of the undercover and all the, and then the lifestyle. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think I could have. I mean, the amount of hours and everything that I was working was, Couldn't [00:29:53] Speaker A: have done it without without that? [00:29:54] Speaker B: I don't think so. Yeah, I mean, I went in Wired all the time. And I don't mean literally. I mean, I, I wasn't, I wasn't actually. [00:30:00] Speaker A: Your adrenaline's going the whole. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:30:02] Speaker A: So how, when you, when you, when you got out of that, how did you, how did you adjust and, and become fulfilled, have a fulfilled life without that? And how hard was it? [00:30:12] Speaker B: Whose interview is this, son? Real talk. If you create anything, your voice is your time. 11Labs reads your articles aloud in your voice, flawlessly, in seconds. Stop re recording links below. Go give it a shot. It actually was really, it was, it was tormentous, if that's even a word, because the, the fact that it came to an end after going so hard, so long for two, two years was a weird kick in the nuts, as was seeing the guys go down, all of which deserve to go down, but several of which I didn't want to go down, you know, because you get those relationships. So the combination between that and then knowing my way of life for two straight years, just working outrageous hours, being up in the middle of the night, going wherever the universe is calling me to go do these next deals, all of a sudden comes to a halt. It took quite a while, probably at least a year, year and a half before I kind of came back to a normal routine. And then that's when I decided to quit law enforcement altogether. It was just. I love that so much compared to the other stuff that I did. I thought I'm not going to match it. And if I keep doing this isn't sustainable any more than it is on the criminal end. It's not sustainable. So. Yeah, it took me a long time too, but I appreciate the question now. Let me get back to you. [00:31:39] Speaker A: So I'm sorry. [00:31:42] Speaker B: That's good. No, I appreciate, I appreciate how it's, it's relatable because I really feel like it is. I felt like I had a great deal in common in terms of that aspect of it with those guys and that's why I appreciated them. Also, tell me a little bit about the day that it happened because I think that's, that's a significant day and I would love to hear how it impacted you as a nine. Correct. Nine year old. I would love to know how that impacted you and your family. Tell me a little bit about how it unfolded. [00:32:12] Speaker A: Okay, so we, we knew the dad had. Was staying at the Salvation Army. I don't remember why. If we, we knew he had some legal issues with the judge. I don't Think we knew. I knew it was a drug dealing, yet I don't know. I remember what we thought it was some. Some issue dad had. And so we knew he was having to stay at the place. And I had to stay. I had to stay after school that day for something I had to do at school because my mom and dad came and picked me up and we and my siblings were at home. And I'm not sure because I didn't get in trouble at that point in my life. I'm not sure what I'd stay after school for. But for other reason I was. I'd stay later. And they. So they picked me up and we stopped at this little restaurant the corner of Perkins Road and starring Lane in Baton Rouge. And we were meeting an architect there that my dad who. And he had the diagram drawings and stuff out the two lots next door to our house we. We owned. And we always used it to ride our motorcycles and stuff on. And dad was. Had. My mom was wanting a pool and a tennis court put in. And so we were sitting down with the architect and he was going over the plans with my mom and dad of you know, design the drawings, how he's going to do it. And so we sitting there, we ate and they're. They're all, you know, the adults are talking about it. I'm just, you know, doing my thing. And then my dad looks down his watch at some point, he's like, oh, Debbie, it's almost 6. I gotta go. I'm be late. And so I knew he had to get to the Salvation army. So he went. I guess my mom we must met that must have met us there because he had his car there. He jumped in his car and took off. Me and mom got in her car and drove home. [00:33:30] Speaker B: Is this something that was required by [00:33:33] Speaker A: the courts or something by the federal [00:33:34] Speaker B: judge that he couldn't be at home. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Part of his. With the. The plea deal the dad made with the. He was working with the feds out of. In the D A. In. In my. In Miami. And they were really championing him in the work he was doing then the feds in Baton Rouge. Dad didn't trust. They didn't want to work with him. They just wanted. You know, they were just out to get him. And they were the ones doing the illegal things trying to have him arrested. And so when. When he made the deal in Miami, the judge there was because. Was the. The gave the. He was known for giving the maximum sentence as to drugs. Drug smugglers in Miami because of the. You Know the problem there. So they were sure he was going to give dad, you know, almost life in prison or, you know, whatever, some, some very long sentence. So since the feds in Baton Rouge because of John Camp's reporting were kind of being outed for someone from doing some illegal and nefarious things trying to, trying to catch my dad, they were willing to make a deal that, look, all right, we won't give him no more time in, in Louisiana than he gets, than he gets in Florida. We will, whatever will match the time. No more, no less. So he was, they were confident he was going to get a lot of time there with a judge in, in Florida, said, you know, he didn't usually do this, but because of the, how my dad puts his life at risk and has his contract on his life and how, how far he was willing to go to make, to make righteous wrongs he gave him though. He gave him completely free to go. He said, you're free to, you know, absolutely free. You've earned your life back. Well, the feds and Baton Rouge were furious about that. They thought we wouldn't sign this. If we didn't know that we thought he was gonna get at least 20 years to life, we wouldn't have done this. So the, the federal judge in Baton Rouge, Frank Palazzolo, he decided that he was, you know, he wanted to play God, judge and jury that day. And he decided that he, he was going to. Well, he, I said I wouldn't sign this agreement had I known this. But since I'm tied by the agreement, I'm going to give him probation for five years or 10 years where it was. And part of the probation he's got to stay at the Salvation army Halfway House for six months. He has to be there at 6pm in the evening and he can't leave till 7 in the morning. Okay, that's published in the paper. And so they said, well, look, he's got a million dollar contract on his life. And that judge knew that. He said, I don't care. He said, I'd like him to break it right now, show up one minute late from there. Also part of this, you can't carry any weapons on you. It says, come to my attention some of them in the, the, some of you are the men that you hang around with, carry weapons. Anyone around you carrying a weapon is going to breaks your makes. The agreement that my dad then tried to offer to hire off duty Baton Rouge police officers and the judge forbade that anyone in your presence carrying a weapon and the agreements non Void and you're going to prison. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Even law enforcement. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Even law enforcement. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Wow way. [00:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So then the Fed, the feds from Miami, their backup plan to take care. They said, well, look, they asked for them to be released into their custody and they were going to move the entire family. I always get this wrong. I think it's a. There's a naval base in Pensacola, Florida. They were wanted to move us on to the naval base to where somebody have to go through checkpoints to get in there and have us live there. And that then. And then, then the, the agents personally be in Florida and have some jurisdiction to be also around dad to take care of. They really, they really love that. They became really close with him, cared for him. And the judge said no, he blocked it. And they, when they asked him, why won't you allow him to be in the. To the custody of DEA on a naval base? He said, because Florida is a drug state and I'm not letting Barry Seal move to a quote unquote drug state. And so. Wow. [00:36:40] Speaker B: So he was set up for failure. It wasn't pure ignorance, but he was also following it to the letter of the law because he knew he had a, a high penance to pay if he failed to show up on. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And so he knew three weeks in his day, they came and killed him. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Okay, so again we're back at the. So he leaves for the Salvation Army. [00:36:58] Speaker A: He's leaving for that, for that, that sentence Salvation army takes off. Me and mom drive home. We get home, we had some guys, they worked for my dad and they, I believe they worked in the business stuff with him, but they also like cut grass and did stuff around our house. So I always thought we knew him as our yard man. And you know, they kind of have baby status a little bit more like our yard man. They actually. But they all. They did work for dad the cocaine business as well. I didn't know that at the time, but we were friendly with, you know, the kids. We get home and Pat, one of the guys, we were shooting basketball, me and my brother playing basketball on the driveway. And dad had that new cell phone, the big clunky one, the brand new one, the. The real big one. And I called him. I caught. I was wanting to buy a little radio from the store for school kids. We were making mixtapes where you could. They just come out the dual cassette tapes where you could, you know, record songs. [00:37:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:42] Speaker A: So I asked Pat would he take me to the store and buy me one. And he said, well, call your dad if you Tell me to. I'll go buy it. I'll get the money back from him. So I called dad's cell phone and dad always answered. He didn't answer, which I thought was kind of strange. So I just go back to shooting basketball. Pat. And maybe five minutes later, my mom comes running down the little steps of the house, a little breezeway, real frantic with a purse. Pat, Pat get to get the kids in the car. Get the kids in the car. Barry's been shot. Barry's been shot. Well, so we all jump in the car, we start going. Pat's driving. He's like, Debbie, which hospital? About who says Two or three hospitals that time we said, which hospital's gas? She's like, I didn't ask. She said, pull over at the gas station. I'll call him back. So we pulled the gas station. Mom goes payphone, tells us, you know, y' all stay in the car. And you know, she's taking a little while on the phone. So I just, I had to know what's going on. So I got out, walking towards and I hear her saying, is, is he definitely dead? They're the. I know later, the guy, she told me the phone said when they told her that he was there still, Salvation army, his body was. And she said, well, I'm coming there with the kids. Debbie, don't, don't come here. Don't come here and do not bring your kids here. But I hear her saying, is he definitely dead? Are you sure? Is he definitely dead? And then she just slams the phone down. I just saw her shoulders shrunk and she turned around and going with, Aaron, get in the car. And we drive home. And then your family starts showing up and that kind of thing. [00:38:57] Speaker B: Wow. And then from there, obviously, as a nine year old, I'm curious too, because I mean, you have all this, you're doing all this work on your home and all this kind of stuff. He thought he was kind of going to maybe work out whatever with the government. I don't know how much he expected to be confiscated. But the IRS came and took everything. So as a, as a nine year old, which was more eye opening, the fact that he was a drug dealer, which in some nine year old's heads is like, I kind of know what that is. Or was it that you literally lost your house and everything? How, how did you, how did you. [00:39:28] Speaker A: The IRS had taken everything before he was killed. Technically, they, they had, they had come in and it was a. The way the couple different movies about that and they don't they don't portray that. That part completely accurately, but we. Dad was at his office. He had a little shop on north street in Baton Rouge. It was like. Just like his little office kind of close to the airport. We were. We were. The kids. We were at school, and the. They first went to dad's office, and we're trying to get in. And they didn't have a warrant to get in the office, so he wouldn't let him in the door. And so the attorney tells you don't have to let him in if they don't have a warrant. They said they're. They're just waiting outside the door till they get a judge to send a warrant so he can't go anywhere. So whoever he had worked at the office room that day, they put. They pull the windows up off and they got barrels. They're putting up all these files, whatever paperwork he didn't want people to see and burning them and lighting the papers on fires inside and fanning the smoke out the windows of the agents while they're doing this. He called my mom, says, look, Debbie, the IRS is here at my shop, you know, waiting on to get a warrant. The attorney says they're coming to the house next. They can take anything they want. There's nothing you can't. Don't get in the way. You know, they can't stop them. The only thing they can't do is take what's on your person off your body. So if you want to keep your jewelry, go put it on. So if people see that part of the movie where the American made movie where she works out all the jewelry. That is true. Mom would put all her jewelry on. Now, they did try to take it from her. Some other agents started trying to take stuff off of her, and female agent there told him, just, you know, mom asked her what. Can I please keep this jewelry? The last thing my husband is, you know, ever have to give me something like this nice again. The lady said, okay, let her keep the jewelry on. And so discretionary. Yeah. So everything else, they. They took everything out the house. We get home from school, and everything's out the house. We're just, I guess, told something with the government, there's something, you know, the government issues that's having. And the next day, he went and bought all new furniture. Yeah, I don't think he could buy it. He had to lease it because he couldn't have anything in his name at that time. But the house was decked out with all. Everything that they took the day before we had for everything the next day similar stuff. So we weren't really worried about that because they couldn't. They couldn't take the house and make us move out immediately. I think they have like. I think we get a year or two that you have to stay there. [00:41:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. [00:41:22] Speaker A: I think it's a year before they actually the house was seized by them. But we, you know occupants. As the occupants of the home. We still. You live there. And then dad was killed a few months later. So we stayed in the home for, you know, even seven, eight months after dad was killed until we had eventually had to move out. [00:41:38] Speaker B: So he didn't quite feel that impact. [00:41:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Ended up being dad will take care of it. You know, dad always took care of everything that we got the furniture taken, our four wheelers and stuff taken the next day every. We got all this, you know, similar stuff back. Okay. [00:41:50] Speaker B: Did you ever figure out how the hell he did that? That seems. [00:41:52] Speaker A: I said I think he leased the lease the furniture. So because. So anything is in his name they would. They would have taken the thing. So I guess you know went to furniture shop and just here bring it all. You know. [00:42:01] Speaker B: I mean. And he has credit somehow. I mean it seems wild. [00:42:05] Speaker A: He'd had. He had access to cash deal. They didn't have all his cash. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah, he had that's. He's had a lot the IRS seized what the. The physical stuff they could get. You know dad that had bank accounts in other countries with money and still that they weren't able to get to [00:42:17] Speaker B: any of that stuff come back to you guys? [00:42:20] Speaker A: No. There was my mom. There was a couple account. There was accountant that Cayman Islands that I know had some money in it that my mom sent or she was my dad had told her that was there and she sent. After he was killed. She had hired a private investigator to go down there to. To check on it. And they were like no. Mr. Seal closed the account. Such and such money was withdrawn taken. They're like when did he close? And they're like this date. Like well, Mr. Seal was. Was dead three months before that. They're like look, y' all can leave the bank now, you know so. [00:42:49] Speaker B: Well yeah, that probably wouldn't have bode too well. Somebody would have found out and taken it. [00:42:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Right before he was killed he the some mafia guys made off with 8.5 million account another county had in the Cayman Islands. I think it was eleven and a half million. And he sent his. Well he's my dad's Former, former brother in law from his first marriage. He was one of my dad's pilots. He sent Billy down to the Cayman Islands to bring some money back after he got the Salvation army sentence because dad couldn't fly it on there himself to get the money. So it took him a few weeks to get the bank to allow Billy, his brother to come, you know, get the money without dad being there. And they were bringing the money back into. Some of the Italian mafia in New Orleans were buying a restaurant in Baton Rouge that they were going to building. They're buying this building and they were going to make it, you know, it's going to look like a high end Italian dining restaurant. They were just doing this all just to launder my dad's money. Through it all, it was going to be like a fine five star restaurant, but it was only being created for dad's money and they were going to get their, their cut off of it. Those guys he had known, you know, since the 50s, the Marcella family guys. Well, the day, the day the, the Billy gets down there and brings the money back, the day before dad gets killed, he gets back to Baton rouge with the 8.5 million. He hands the money off to the, the bag man for the Marcelo guys. He gives them the money. The next day Dad's killed. Well, the guy who received the money, when he was asked like, no, I never got with Bill, I didn't get with Barry's guy. I didn't get the money that they, dad's dad, he's only one that could say what happened. So this guy then makes off the money. He doesn't give it to the fan, to the, to the, his Italian brother or whatever. So I learned this from my dad's younger brother Wendell, who works with dad I guess in high school, maybe 18, 19. We're driving on a boat ride from his house down the river. He points to a house, he says, see that house right there? So that man house right there is your daddy. $8.5 million. Don't ever let anybody tell you different. So then he tells me the story how he got that money. I said, well he, well if he's got it, pull up, pull the boat over there. Let's go talk to him. You know, I catch another charge for this, you know, and he said no. He said he took off right after they left. His wife got, I think I was in his 50s, much older, I don't remember the age, but he got with a, you know, a Russian woman or early 20s, left his wife, took, went around the world, partying and gambling with the money. Eventually, when the money was gone, the young Russian girl left him. Of course, he came back to Baton Rouge, apologized to his wife, and she took him back in. And that's how Uncle Wendell knew he was in the house with his wife. [00:45:12] Speaker B: And he's worthless, too. There's nothing to beat out of him at this point. Yeah, he just squandered it all. [00:45:17] Speaker A: And his wife forgave me. His wife took him back. [00:45:19] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Well, maybe he left her a little [00:45:23] Speaker A: so that the money. And I know you've done an interview with my buddy Juan Pablo Escort. He showed him the scripture about. He. He was talking about. You know, he and I met about how people can't believe they have no money, how the money just goes. And he's like, it. People don't understand. It comes quick. It goes. And I told him, you know the scripture in the Book of Proverbs that says that money like that makes. It makes wings like eagles and money flies away. And he. Now he'll point people that scripture. Now when he's with people asking, he's like, no, it's even the Bible. It got in games like that. It makes itself wings like a bird. It just takes off. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:54] Speaker A: When dad died, everybody was grabbing for things, and most of everything was taken. The government took everything that was stationary and fit, you know, the title on it and all the cash everybody's grabbing, you know, it just goes. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And if nobody knew, as soon as you find out about it and go dig it up somewhere, then you're liable, too, for digging that up as proceeds, and they create a whole new case. [00:46:15] Speaker A: No, Mom, I learned that very young age. I probably should have known that when mom had sent the private investigator stuff. That's another thing. She was afraid. Now I've got my kids to worry about. She was threatened by government officials when she would reach out to people in Washington. One time. They said, debbie, how'd you get this number? You don't. You have three kids. You're taking care of a single mom now that you need to. You need to watch. You need to worry about your kid, your children. Don't call this number again, if you understand what I'm saying. And she was not. She was. She wasn't really trying to. People like. Like individual. She knew the dad had loaned money to or something, that she wouldn't even ask him for the money back. She didn't want any. Any more. You know, any. Anything that could bring harm to us. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Clean this. [00:46:52] Speaker A: But the Stuff in the Cayman Islands. She won't pay the investigators to do it because. And I don't know what the. I forget what the percentage is, but the IRS had always told her, if. If you ever find out where there's other properties or money and you put us onto it, you get like, we give like a 10 finders fee or a 7% whatever. She was only gonna. She was only to do it legally and whatever. If she ever came across anything, she was gonna give it to IRS and just. Just to get the little finders fee. [00:47:18] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:47:19] Speaker A: I wouldn't have personally done that. I would have, yeah, that seems risky. I would have been in the Cayman Islands. I had a friend go down there recently, and I sent her by the bank. You did? She wanted to go. She said, if I go down there and find. If I go to that bank and can you find some money, do I get a cut? I said, absolutely. Just don't tell mom. [00:47:38] Speaker B: So speaking of Debbie, who was. Before she was widowed, who was she? What kind of person was she? [00:47:47] Speaker A: My mom was very, very loving, very nurturing, just madly in love with my dad. Still. She just passed away a few months ago, and one of my sisters wrote in the obituary, and I thought it was very important, and said, you know, she stayed loyal to her husband until. Until her last breath. And she did. Mom never remarried. She was, you know, she had a couple men that she dated over the years, and if they ever start talking about marriage, she would say, no, I can't marry. You're not my husband. [00:48:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:09] Speaker A: And she would say, you'll never be him. And mom, you can't, you know, man, let's take care of you and you get older like this nice guy. She said, well, he's not your dad, Aaron. I said, and he never will be. I said, nobody will be. You can't hold every man to this standard. She's like, well, what can we say? What can. What can any man do for me? I had the best of the best. What. What. What. What's. What's this guy? And that's how she saw it. That's. So. I think that speaks a lot to my mom's character, but also to my dad, who my dad was, you know. You know, to. To her last bro. [00:48:38] Speaker B: She. [00:48:38] Speaker A: She was loyal to him and wanted to. Wanted to, you know, find out if she could. Any man in the government that was responsible for his death. [00:48:45] Speaker B: So, no, there was no resentment necessarily toward him for the stuff he did because I. Because as you said earlier, he kind of said, this is what I'm gonna do whether you like it or not. [00:48:55] Speaker A: She wasn't, she doesn't, she didn't like it that he got him killed and left her to raise three kids. But she knew why he was doing it. She knew he was doing it to try to tell, you know, the main reason was to, you know, to take care of his family. So how could you know, how could you really, you know, hold that against. My mom grew up kind of poor and, you know, she said, look, you know, when I met you, I met your dad and you go to the start dating. And she said after their first date, they go this, he was at the time going through a trial for some C4 explosive things that he lost his TWA license. And they went just a little cheap restaurant, Baton Rouge and great pizza place though, that they're just, they're, they're about to reopen but on the date and he, he walked out. So I have the cup still a little red Coca Cola cup. He kind of actually stole the cup when they're leaving because he's chewing the ice and she's like, you stole the cup? He's like, oh, they're not gonna worry about it. And there was a puddle on the ground. He picked her up their first date. And he picked her up real quick. She said, what are you doing? He picked up, put her up over this, over. She wouldn't stop the water puddle. And she said, I fell in love with you within that, that moment. She said, and then he spent every, every moment after that for the rest of the rest of his life making all my dreams come true. [00:49:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:59] Speaker A: So your mom was just a stay at home loving mother. You know, all the kids love to come to our house. She was the cool mom that let everybody, you know, she was, everybody was welcome. You know, she was just friendly to everybody, was very giving. Just love being a mother. Love, love being, you know, love being married to my dad. [00:50:15] Speaker B: How'd she sustain herself after he passed? [00:50:18] Speaker A: Well, he had the la. Right when he, when they put the contract out on his life or, or maybe I'm not sure if exactly when, right when they put the contract out, but when he, when, when, when he knew that the, the Colombians that knew he was working with the government that they like were going to kill him. So his last year of his life, he took out a million dollar life insurance policy. Okay. And to get that today, a million dollars in a lot of money back then, that's a, you know, that's, that's, that's. You're Set for the rest of your life. [00:50:44] Speaker B: Sustainable. [00:50:45] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:50:45] Speaker B: Forever. [00:50:46] Speaker A: So to get that, you know, a policy that big in that short amount of time, you spent a lot of money on that. Well, so when he, when he was killed, then they were going to worry about the money. The IRS stepped in, so. Oh, oh, no, no, no, you can't. That money now, because that money, we're alleging, likely was bought with drug proceeds to buy the policy. We want the policy too. And so my mom had to hire a bunch of attorneys and she fought the government for, I think they had seven years to prove or not that that that was their money. The first lawyer she were using, they weren't getting anywhere with it. She ended up having hired a really renowned tax attorney, Mr. Merrill out of Virginia. He's got a book he's written on these major tax cases. And my mom's story is, you know, one of the chapters in the book. He eventually won the case against the government, but she spent probably two third, a third of the money at least in attorney bills just leading up to that. You know. Then right after that they had the, the stock market, the crash and I think Black Monday they call it 87 stock market crash. The money she had had people invest other one, she lost another chunk of it in that, so there wasn't much left. She had my dad's, I guess, Social Security from his. When he was, when he paid into, when he was a TWA pilot. And then a little annuity of some of the money she had left. Our CPA, Ms. Lisa, who's still a good friend of the family, she converted the little bit of money that was left into an annuity that so that the IRS couldn't touch that. And so my mom received that annuity benefit monthly. And then dad Social Security. [00:52:09] Speaker B: Excellent. So [00:52:12] Speaker A: we went from living up here, we went to slowly to middle class to just boom, nothing, you know, but [00:52:19] Speaker B: she made it work. She had something to go on at least. [00:52:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, she did her best to try to make us to where we didn't feel it as much. You know, we, you know, she tried to keep us in private school as long as she could and she tried to raise us as normal as possible. Yeah. So did her best. [00:52:33] Speaker B: Another interesting aspect about her and, and is telling to her character too, is if you would explain a little bit about, for the people who don't know why and how your dad was assassinated, maybe tell us who it was that assassinated them and then go into the fact that your mother actually was a supporter of theirs in terms of Getting them out and forgiving them and all that stuff, which is a remarkable part of the first story. [00:53:02] Speaker A: And actually, my mom was supportive of that, but that was. That was only after my leading. I led. I was. I'm the one that initiated all that. My mom really wasn't into doing all that, but she. She kind of followed my leading in [00:53:15] Speaker B: that, set it straight. I'd love to hear how, you know again, who it was that. That murdered him. [00:53:19] Speaker A: How that worked out is the one who paid that paid the. The contract to have it done. He called a meeting in Colombia, said, look, we need this guy killed. And he had this one guy, Bernardo Vasquez, who was. He'd never done any contract hit work for him. He was a money guy that. That from. Originally from Columbia but living. Living in New Orleans but fluent English and had a job in America. Looked like a regular guy working, living here. And he would transport money back. Back home for him. That was his only thing. Well, he was summoned to the median. So he said, look, I need. They basically, they needed some. They needed somebody that knew English to spoke English to leave, to make sure the hitman got to everything taken care of. And then he happened to be from New Orleans, but had been in Baton Rouge, you know, where we lived. He'd been there several times, so he can do the lay of the land. So he's. The way he tells me is that Escobar and were so close. He told him, look, I don't want you to be involved in this because the guys are high, likely to get caught or killed. But Bernardo said he volunteered to do it. And he says he didn't even wasn't gonna receive any money for it, that he was doing it just because the boss asked me to. And he's still very, very proud of that. [00:54:22] Speaker B: Loyal. [00:54:22] Speaker A: He asked me, he said, need it done. I volunteered to have it done, and he didn't want me to do it. I said, no, I'm. I'm gonna help with this. That's how. That's how he tells the story. So he was the. The planner behind it and logistics guy for the hit. The mastermind, if you know, brains behind the hit, if you. If you will. The other guys. Another one was. His name's last name is a Quintero Cruz, some Cantero Cruz. He's in jail still in North Louisiana. And the other one is Miguel Velez, whose nickname is Kumbamba. He was a notorious assassin for the. For the betting cartel. He one time went in a. Was known. He went to. To a Bar in Miami and lit the whole place up machine guns and shot and killed a whole bunch of people. And not even. Didn't even hit the person he was after. Just would spray a bar of innocent people. This guy was, you know, according, you know, he was as, as cutthroat as they come from the cartel. So. And I think there was a fourth guy that was just, oh, kind of a background player. But those two guys come to Baton Rouge and they, they, they were the, the actual hit team that did it. Bernardo was at the hotel next to the Salvation army with a walkie talkie. And the other guys pulled up, they saw where dad parked his car, backed his car, and right by the front door of the Salvation Army. I think dad did that right by the front so the cops and the government could pass and see he's there, you know, and so they saw where he would do that every day. And they pulled up a car in the spot right next to her. Dad would park. And they had the trunk loaded down with clothes and stuff that they were putting in the donation bin of the Salvation Army. And then the machine gun laying on the, on the floorboard of the trunk. Yeah, Bernardo's on the radio to him. Okay, here he's coming, he's pulling at 6 o'. Clock, here he comes, he's pulling in. They seem, pulling, they act. That guy's acting like he's taking stuff from the trunk, throwing it in the bin when dad backs in. He was on the, the cell phone when I met Bernardo. He said, you. He's talking on the phone, he's backing in and soon as he stops the car, Cruise, let him cruise. He grabs the machine gun, just steps around from the trunk and let him up. Yeah. And so, you know, when I went, when I met with, with the hitman, my mom question, she wanted to know. She was always want to. Did, did, did, did he see it coming and did he suffer at all? Was he alive with the, the book? No, he was dead instantly. And, and Robin ar. Said, he said, no, there's, I don't think there's any way he even saw it. He was on the phone backing in. He said he, I mean, he just stepped to the side of the trunk. He had one second to even see and the bull's ringing out. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:38] Speaker A: You know, and so, yeah, so those guys, I, I became one of the guys that got cruised that actually pulled the trigger. I was told he, he's never really learned to even speak English well. And he's not right in the head still. He. He still says the CIA did it and they were framed. Even though the other two hit men acknowledged we did it together. He's. They said that like. Like if everybody, if they ever like bring it up to him. And he's like, they got to you too. You know, like, they're like. And he's just not right. So in 20, I say 20. 2015, 2016. I had a friend that was in doing time in Angola Penitentiary State Penitentiary in Louisiana. I'm sure you're familiar with Angola. He's probably sent some friends there. No, no, no, but the. He was for a bar fight. A guy that I was a witness to a bar fight that, that turned in to be a guy got killed in. And a friend of mine, unfortunately he's out now, but he got a life sentence and was in Angola Penitentiary. And some, some of his friends have kept in touch with him. Let us know if you want to write him. You can do it on the jpeg, the prison email thing. So I'm emailing this guy, this guy's named Chad. I was emailing him just to wish him well and chat with him one day. So thinking, well, the guys that killed my dad are in angle. I wonder if I can just look them up by the jp. So I typed the names in and I found Kumbamba. The, the, the. The. The real cutthroat killer guy. Mz. That's the name he's in prison under. I found his name and so I sent him an email and he responded. He and I became pen pals for a little while. And I told him I just want to let you know I have no unforgiveness, you know, for you. You know, I've. I've probably shared with him some of my life story and that I, you know, some spiritual experiences I had. And I said, and I just want you to know, you know that. And I had spoken to my mother about it. She was willing to also, you know, acknowledge that she was. Would. Would forgive him. And my best of my family, I wouldn't say so at all, you know, [00:58:27] Speaker B: but my mother, it's understandable, both more remarkable to be the one to stay to step up and say, I'm willing to put this aside. [00:58:34] Speaker A: Mom was, I think at the time. I don't think mom was actually forgiven forgiving of them yet at the time, but she is the first time. Because it's illegal for the prisoners to speak with us because we're considered victims of their crime. As you would know. They're not allowed to communicate with, with us. So me reaching out to him and finding him that way was kind of under, you know, in the gray area. So I think Mom. Mom was willing just to. Yeah, yeah, time I forgive him. She just want to ask questions like did the government. Were any government officials directing you do this? Was it? You know, she had more questions that she was willing to say whatever I forgive. She just wanted to get some answers at that time. Yeah, I had forgiven. I even told him I loved him and that if there's anything I can do to, you know, I heard he was one of the main reasons that I did at that time. I had heard that Kumbamba was dying of cancer. They're all up at Davis Wade Correctional Facility, which is in North Louisiana. He was moved down to Angola because of the medical ward there because he had cancer. And he had even painted the. This chapel there that's still there. It's called the Guadalupe Chapel. He's a renowned artist. He painted this whole chapel beautiful thing. And so I just read that about him in the paper and it was dying. So I want to make sure before he died I at least got a chance to let him know I have no hold, no unforgiveness for you. I want you carrying that into, into the grave. If you, if, if you think there is. I can't speak for anyone else. My mother will say. You know, my mother was saying she was with me on this. I just didn't want him to feel some unnecessary burden. At least for me. I've. I've made peace with it. And you can. I can be your friend in your death. Yeah. And he accepted that. Well, the. Not long after the prison officials like figured out we were chatting with them and they cut, Cut it off. So I just was able to do a few times since the messages back and forth from. And then connected in my mother. Him and my mother to talk on the phone one time so she could ask her questions. And then he passed. What I didn't know is he had emailed Bernardo Vasquez, which was the money guy, the, the mastermind up in North Louisiana before he died and let him know, hey, look, I don't have few many days left or whatever, but I want to let you know I've been in touch with Barry Seals widow and his. One of his sons. And he, they. They forgiven us. And he said, we even spoke about things like love and, and, and, and, and things like that. And he said so if you ever get a chance to. To meet with them, you need to because you know It's. I guess it did a lot for him, for his death. So Bernardo up there, his dying, his. His mother. Mother and father would come and see him while he's been in prison. And when they passed away, he said that was the biggest, you know, losing his mother especially that he just, you know, it's his last connection back home and just the last people in the world supporting him. It just. It took a very big toll on him and his mother. His mother's dying wish to him was that if I could ever ask you to do his mom. What do you. What's your. What's the last thing you say to me? And the last thing Stories. If you could ever find Barry Seals widow and. And tell and ask her to forgive you, that would be my dying wish for you. So he's left with this up there. [01:01:19] Speaker B: Wow. [01:01:19] Speaker A: Then receives that email from Kabamba that hey, Barry Seals widow and son have forgiven us. And so he and I ended up meeting. I went through this program. It's. It's like a counseling thing you have to go to. To make sure you're ready to. To. To meet with the. It's called the Victim Offender Victim Dialogue. And so I had to meet with these people for like two years, these counselors and such, to before I could go spend a day with Bernardo in person. Then Covid happened. This got stretched out to being a four year process had to go through. My mom wasn't that interested in doing it. I asked her to do with me. [01:01:49] Speaker B: She. [01:01:50] Speaker A: She won't do it. She said, I'm not. It was two years. She didn't want to do it. She said, I got my questions answered from Kumbamba. I'm good, you know. So I went through this process and after four years, July 2021 I think it was. I got to go to the day and spend the day in the prison with Bernardo. Got to walk in there, you sit like. Like you. And I said, you have that two counselor ladies sitting with us. I got to spend the day with him, hug, you know, walked up. First thing I did, I saw him from behind. I said, mijo. And he turned around and I just hugged him. And he began to weep. And you know, we sat there and we were able to. To talk about things. And I'll let him know I've no unforgiveness for him, you know. And it's. It's kind of a unique thing because he and I are friends. I consider my friend and I. He's still not. He's not sorry that he that he. I wouldn't say that he played a part in my dad being killed again. He was very proud. Proud. Very. Even offended when people in prison would say, oh, you did it. You did y' all get the money? The other person would ask him. He's. I didn't do it for money. The other guys were. Adam. They were doing it for money. He said he was doing it because the boss needed it done, and he was. So he still has this, to me, have a strange loyalty to. [01:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:51] Speaker A: Escobar, who's even been dead for so long, just. But it's almost still like. I mean, it's just. It's Right. He's been in prison for all this time away from this man who's dead, and he still has this unyielding loyalty to him, which is wild. Seems a very strong, dark, spiritual component to it, if you ask me. [01:03:07] Speaker B: There's a version of this that doesn't make it here. The part I only send to the mailing list community early before it goes anywhere else. Free links in the description for those who want to be on the inside. [01:03:18] Speaker A: But Bernard, I believe, is a good, decent man, and he's my friend, and so he's not sorry per se for killing my dad because he saw this man's hurting my friends and my people who they believe were doing the right thing for their country in. In God's will. And so he was just doing, you know, stopping that. That's how they see it. [01:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:37] Speaker A: I mean, and Kumbamba, the other guy, I think. I'm not sure if his brother. His sister, to this day still is. Is a very high official at the Vatican. These were very religious and very like, these people. He believed. Kumaba said. I believe that was actually doing God's will. He said these were bad people. The gringos, whoever it was that were hurting the organization, even other Colombia, were Spanish people. They were. We're bringing. We're bringing resources and stuff to that God gave us to help our people in our land. And these people trying to stop it, like y'. All. But y' all were evil, not us. And we're doing. I'm out here risking my life to kill bad guys. That's how they saw. They thought they were like, you know, they were like, what you were doing. That's how they really. And Kumbama had repented of that. But I mean, anyway, so I'm sitting with Bernard. He's not. So that's so much for. Even though I forgave that. He's not so much Sorry for that. But he said what I am sorry for. When I lost my mother and father, when I. When I lost my family, especially my mother, he said the pain that I felt. And he cried. He started weeping. And these. These weren't fake tears. He's crying. The pain I felt in that moment, to know that I played a part in making Barry Seals children feel that regardless of what my thoughts about him, that. That I made his family feel the way I'm feeling now. I'm sorry for that. [01:04:45] Speaker B: So he was kind of conflicted. Was that something you were willing to accept? Was that a concession you like? All right, I'll take it. [01:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So. Yeah. Because I wasn't there. He didn't have to accept my forgiveness for me to offer it. It's not about. It's. I'm letting you know if. If you don't want to carry that bird, you don't have to. [01:04:59] Speaker B: You're extending a gift. That's what forgiveness is. Offered a gift. You can take it or leave it. [01:05:03] Speaker A: Exactly. So, yeah, so that's. And so then later on. Yeah, I. It wasn't my mother. It was me that. When he went up for parole, I called into this during COVID So you couldn't go into the board meeting. [01:05:13] Speaker B: Right. [01:05:13] Speaker A: I called in and register my name as a voice of. You know. Yeah, you let him out. I would believe that he should be released and go home. Now, my mother did agree with that. She just didn't call in that day. She had since been diagnosed with dementia and Alzheimer's, and I was taking care of her. She wasn't a good place to even do that. Yeah, but she. Her vote was also with me that. That. That she's okay for him to go home. [01:05:35] Speaker B: Well, I'm sorry for her passing and. And that's admirable of you to have taken care of her. Is there anything she left you with regarding any of this story, any. Any of her life or anything that she left you with that was kind of like what. What your friend got from his mother? [01:05:54] Speaker A: Not really. I. Her mind was so gone at the end. I mean, there was days she thought I was her husband. You know, there was days she would take me. Asked me to take her to see her mother who's been dead 15, 20 years. I'd have to. And I'd. When I tell her her mom's dead, it's like telling her for the first time, and she starts telling her, you know, the. The dad was killed, she was the who killed in the clan to watch her grieving. All that over, like it just happened again. [01:06:18] Speaker B: Wow. [01:06:19] Speaker A: There was one time she was telling me, you know, I was, had changed her diapers and stuff. She was, it was that bad at the end. And she's telling me that, you know, she, you know, I'm grateful for what you're doing for me and I want to make this marriage work. I said, what? Said I'd like you take good care of me, Aaron. I'd like this marriage to work. I said, mom, I'm your, I'm Aaron, I'm your son. Oh, Aaron, I'm losing my mind. You know, it was brutal. It was fun. Five years. The last three years were just broken hips and stuff. But I, I knew that, that if, if my dad was alive, he, and if, or if you could just tell, he would say, take care of your mom. Yeah, he would take care of her. And so I, you know, I gave up my life basically for the last 35 years, definitely last three where she had 24 hour care. I had to stop working and everything after, you know, after the, you know, three years ago. But I, I did it because I think it's the right thing to do. And then to see her evolve to that process of the forgiveness or that she reached. I think a lot of that came from her and I discussion talks about it and stuff and her scene, you know, my leading in that. And so I'm grateful that she was able to. I know when she passed away she had no unforgiveness in her heart. And you know, I believe, you know, I believe the scriptures have a lot of truth in them. And I believe, I believe the scripture where it says, you know, if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven. I believe that. And so that's one of the things that led me to forgiving the, the men that I forgave that I didn't have to, I didn't need to. If any, the average person would tell me, I have no, I have no, there's no reason I should, I should forgive them nor anybody expect me to. But I believe that there is. You know, I want to be forgiven for things I've done. And I don't believe I get to say, well I didn't kill somebody so I can get away with, you know, they're murderers. That's different. I don't, I've never murdered anyone nor ever want to. But I, I don't think I get that pass just because their sin may be worse than mine. I want to be forgiven. So I believe they, they Deserve that as well, that God's grace can change anyone. And then. And I believe people deserve second chances. [01:08:12] Speaker B: And the cycle has to stop somewhere. [01:08:14] Speaker A: So people like you that will just [01:08:17] Speaker B: draw that line in the sand. [01:08:18] Speaker A: And that's what it's that cycle of violence. So I could hate the Escobars, I could hate these hitting men, their family, whatever. I could hate these people if I ever get a chance. I could, you know, try to exact revenge, or I could just live with. With unforgiveness and that pain in my heart, or I can take a. Take a stance. You know, I'm going to step out of that cycle of violence because, as you know, the violence begets more violence. I can go try to do something on Paul west car and his son can try to do something to my rescue. Dogs have it on now, kids or whatever. But if someone does, if no one steps out of that and says, you know what, I may be quote, unquote, victimized by you, but you didn't hurt me. You. You can't. You don't have that power of me. I'm not your victim. And when I'm. When I met Pablo Escobar's son later in life as well, and he and I became friends, I went to watch him speak to a. This at a church to, like, this public speaking thing he does in Mexico City. And his publicist, when he was on the stage, he told up the crowd, you know, one of the victims of my father's violence is here tonight. And so his public, Aaron, everybody's wondering who it is that's here, that's the victim. She's like, but people might, like, might leave you off that. Are you okay if we tell them? I said, yeah, but, yeah, y' all can tell them who I am. They want to talk to me. I said, but just tell Juan Pablo and I'll tell you later. Only thing I don't like, don't ever refer to me again as a victim of his father's violence. I'm nobody's victim, Pablo Escobar. Having my father killed did not victimize me. I don't live my life that way. I'm. No one has that power over me. You, I may be. I lost. You understand? What say I was a. My father was a crime victim of them. That effect. I'm not his victim. [01:09:49] Speaker B: Good for you. [01:09:50] Speaker A: That's not how I live my life. And so that's another reason, the forgiveness thing, like, it's not hard to forgive them because I don't. They didn't Victimize me, you know? Yeah, I had to some issues. My family had some issues. But so what? Life is hard. Life's tough. We're still here. We made it through. And I was able to be there for my mother to the. Hey, y'. All. Wherever you go in life and you go home, be with your family. It's been a long time. Go to the grave in peace. At least with me I have. There's nothing here with me. And if you want to hand a friendship, I'll extend it. [01:10:17] Speaker B: That's. That's admirable. So I'm curious too. So. And tell me if I'm wrong in making the supposition, but you have forgiven the shooters. But you. But you haven't necessarily forgiven the government. Tell me a little bit about how you feel because we didn't really get into the weeds either about some of the conspiratorial stuff. [01:10:41] Speaker A: When you say the government, who do. Who are you speaking of? You speak of the government as a whole, like as an entity or individuals. [01:10:46] Speaker B: That's for you to. To tell me. I mean, you know, I'm just. [01:10:49] Speaker A: Well, as organizations, I would say, or like as an entity, like say the. The CIA or whatever part they had. My father, I. Can you. I don't. I haven't really thought about this too much. I don't know. Can I forgive an agency that's not, you know, can I, you know, say, how do you forgive an entity? So I don't think that's even relevant. So it would be the people that played a role, like, say, Frank, Judge Paul. I can't say that I don't forgive him. But it's one thing forgiveness for me is. It's easier if the person is repentant to a degree at least. But some of them, some of the people have had to forgive were not. I don't think Judge Paul's old died repentant about my father's death. But I don't mean I don't forgive him, but it's. It's. It's more of a nasty taste in my mouth amongst his own forgiveness. I only think about the guy. I think he was a pathetic, you know, waste of life, you know. [01:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:41] Speaker A: Human excrement. [01:11:42] Speaker B: Waste of your time. Yeah. [01:11:43] Speaker A: I mean, we found out later on he was. He was a. He was a pain pill addict this whole time. They had to vacate. I think the last five years or something. You could look it up online. They had to vacate a lot of the sentences he was guys. Because, you know, the federal judges that you can't remove them from the bench. They're there for a long time. He stayed there. He was gonna. He was gonna die on that bench. He was obviously power hungry. And they figured out the last in towards the end of his life they vacate a lot of his sentences because he was hopped up on oxycontins making these and was losing his. You know it wasn't obviously what his sober mind to do this. Sure. They found out and I think this is accurate. Been a long time. I believe he was his. He was on pain pills for back issues he had long had. But then he had a maid or. Or someone associated with him that he was sending to doctors on his behalf Dr. Shop and getting more pills from other doctors for him. That's how they kind of found out because he had. And the lady felt whatever it was [01:12:35] Speaker B: used to be a little easier to do that than these days. [01:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:37] Speaker B: Multiple prescriptions different. [01:12:40] Speaker A: I did the same thing. Yeah. So when I found this out, I was like wait. So. And then I've heard from other. Other people or the attorneys and stuff that were of age back then. They said no, that wasn't just that recent. He was. He was using pills basically his whole career is what they say. He was opiated. So the epoxy of it that this federal judge is sitting there saying he wears the white hat and bury seal on the put strip him of any protection of himself made by court order. He has to be in this place and set him up as daddy said. They've made me a clay pigeon. Set him up to be publicly executed because of his power. Because he's a cocaine trafficker. Because he flies planes of cocaine while this dude's popping oxycontins out of it is about making the epoxy of it is just astounding. You know. So when I see that I think, okay, there was no moral authority this man thought he perceived that he had. The best case scenario is that if he did everything he did to my father because he felt he had a moral authority. But he didn't even think that he was a drug addict. You know what I'm saying? And dad didn't even use drugs. So a lot of people would say you're, you're better. You're. You're a better person if you just transport them and if you, if you're hooked on. I, you know, I don't know. But this is the epoxy. It was just kind of. [01:13:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:48] Speaker A: So I, I'm not saying I don't, I don't forgive the guy, but it's just, it's just left the nasty taste in my mouth. I don't know it, I don't, I didn't. I've heard that people that knew him, that said they would ask about my dad, people, people that were close to his family would, if it was ever brought up, he wouldn't discuss it. He would remove you from his presence. If my dad's name was ever brought up, he wouldn't talk about it. [01:14:08] Speaker B: Sure, there's a lot of liability there [01:14:10] Speaker A: and yeah, so I don't think he's repented, but even he was, I, I, you know, I, I, I, I never really held it against him. I don't think, like, I don't know how to even explain. I don't know. There's no unforgiveness there. I just, I don't really think about it. [01:14:22] Speaker B: And that's the, that's the singular part of the government that you're talking about. It wasn't anything else that you were in the beginning of our conversation. I just want to make sure I'm clear to understanding. You said there was, they were using illegal means to try to get him framed up or something. Was that a DEA process or are you just referring to this judge being a crook? [01:14:43] Speaker A: It was the federal prosecutor about the time Stan Stanford Bardwell and some of the, I guess I'm not sure what agency it was. I guess I don't know if it's DEA or state police, Narcotics. I think it was DEA guys. They, they, they couldn't catch my dad into. They, he was basically, they felt he was rubbing in their faces. So they recruited a guy. His name, that his nickname was Sweetie. His name was Kenneth Webb. He was an old like high school classmate, my dad's. That was a pilot. Wasn't a very, even a very good one. I don't know if he's even had his license, even his time. But he had moved to Missouri, went through a divorce and had some incident like with his ex wife and he, you know, lost custody of his child. And he really loved his son Jason, and he was trying to. And so the feds tracked him down and said, look, you were friends with Barry. Yeah, Barry and I were good friends. One time he trusted, he said if, if we could get you to move back to Baton Rouge and re. Ingratiate yourself around him and get some intel for us, you know, and, and so he's like, well, why would I do that? They said, well, if you don't, we're gonna we know about your. Your custody battle and your incident with your ex wife and your son, Jason. I said, we'll make sure you'll never see that child again. But if you help us with this, we'll help you get full custody of him if we can. So he came back to Baton Rouge, my dad just seeing old friends down his luck. He immediately ran him an apartment, got him, gave him a car, put him, gave him a job doing. Run errands and stuff, paid him, helping him get back on his feet. So then they cut. Feds come to him again. And he's like. He's like, no, I haven't seen any cocaine. I haven't heard. He's like, I don't even seen drugs before. This guy drank a lot. He said, I don't. I. I haven't seen anything like that. Barry hasn't asked me doing anything. So we need your son's affidavit that Barry had you pick up a shoebox that had a kilo of cocaine in it and delivered to him at his office. And they said, you know, they said. They said, he's like, well, that's. They said, look, we're going to get him, even if we have to buy the dope and put it under a fender of his car, we're going to do it to bust him. They said, so you're going to help us do this. So he signed an affidavit stating that he delivered a shoebox of cocaine to my dad. Look, my dad has C123 filled with cocaine. He flew. He didn't deal with shoeboxes, you know. [01:16:39] Speaker B: Right. [01:16:39] Speaker A: So this guy signs it. He then realized, okay, he messed up. He goes with that, barry, look, the feds came. This is what I did. I signed them. He said, look, Ken, all you tell me we have. Lawyer says we, you know, all you had to do was tell me. Gets the lawyer. They. They go, the attorneys go. And it's all documented. Online interviews, all the people who were involved in this with Kenneth as well. He says, he acknowledges he lied. He said he was pressured to sign this, that he, the feds made all it up. He signed it, told everything, wanted to recruit you. I don't have. What's the word? Removed from the evidence that got the indictment. Yeah. And the judge said, no. The prosecutor just said, no, we're not. We're not. He's like, he. The terms, like, look, he's acknowledging he's willing to take whatever penalty he'll get for. For perjury, for lying. He's you know, he'll. He's willing to take it to. He saying that was false testimony. They wouldn't. They wouldn't remove the testimony. That's when dad went to John Camp, the reporter, and delayed all this out in the news story. And when they laid out the news story, they got nervous, the feds got nervous. They said, okay, we'll accept the deal in Miami. He's getting. Because they knew that that was. [01:17:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, if he had written it straight to the judge, it wouldn't have been a choice at that point either. Of course it would have been hopefully that not the crooked judge, but yeah, well, once a judge, it was. Yeah. So that may have. May have been a next. Too. [01:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So he went to the media did. For. It was working at that time because they did. They were cancer enough. They said, okay, look, will go with what floor because they knew that their case at very best was shaky, you know, at that point. And so. And they have lawyers in. In my area in Baton Rouge, they teach courses on this when they do like, ethics and. And working with undercover agents and stuff. Like, a friend of mine who's an attorney recently text me that she was in a meeting where they were showing that interview and going over my dad's case to teach attorneys how to deal with the. With federal agents when they're doing stuff like that. Another funny story. Y' all might. You might like this. My little sister, my family had moved to the North Shore, New Orleans for a while. I moved home and lived in Baton Rouge the whole time. But she was going to take a job. She was working at like, Walgreens or something. And she was going to take a job as a bank teller. They were outside New Orleans, Louisiana. That's like late high school or starting college. And she goes to the Capital One bank course where they go in there, the training and stuff. I think it's Mandalor Covington, Louisiana. And they start teaching them what to look for signs to look for if it suspects my money laundering. And they show a video, and it's a video of my dad coming to the bank and getting deposit money. And my sister puts her head down. She's like, oh, my God. The little friend she'd made next week. What's wrong? She's like, that's my dad. It's like, what? That's my dad. [01:19:07] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. That's too much irony for the family. So what inspired you to reach out to. To Pablo's son Sebastian. He goes by Sebastian Marine. But when Juan Pablo Jr. What yeah. [01:19:21] Speaker A: They gave him Sebastian American that when he. When his family. If you know the story, no one, no country in the world would take him after his dad's death. Except Argentina. Yeah. So they got to Argentina, they opened a phone book, said, pick out a name that's gonna be your new name. And he picked out Sebastian American. Yeah. So. Yeah. So it really started in 2009. I get a2010. Some of Facebook started kind of getting popular. This guy get a message from this guy named Felix Dixon Bates Perella. I have no idea who he is. Spanish looking gentleman starts messaging me. He was. He was. I think he was a money carrier to money bag for. For the cartel. He did. I know he had like a business manager for them. And he flew. I believe he. He's the one when my dad went to First Note Escobar, I believe this guy was also flew with my dad and interpreted for him because Escobar didn't speak any. Speak any English really. But he was forever. He would. There was involvement when that was testified against people. He got caught up in that. And he. My dad testified against him, and he ends up doing like 10 years in prison. And he got out of prison and given his life to. To God and changed his life. He got his life back on course. And he's at a church in Baton Rouge not long after me out of prison. He's doing real real estate and he's sharing with the pastor of the church, you know, with his story, you know, and you ever heard of Barry Se. I was involved. He's like, wow. You know, and he's telling all the stuff. He's like, well, I happen to be friends with this pastor. He said, well, Aaron Seals, a good friend of mine, he said, I believe he would love to hear from you. And he would, you know, he wouldn't hold me that he wouldn't be upset with any of that stuff with you. The guy's like, no, I'm not gonna read. He's like, I'm telling you, Aaron Seals are a good band. Yeah. But you should reach out to him. So Felix messaged me and tells me, look, I'm a guy that you'd ask the prison. I didn't know his name. I wouldn't ask my mom. She's like, yeah, that's so and so, you know, I remember going to dinner with him and his wife a couple times. My mom's telling me, filling in who he is, because we get a lot of messages from crazy people, you know, People. [01:21:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:10] Speaker A: So she verifies it so he's like, I just wanted to reach out to you because Pastor Ricky told me. Pastor Ricky Sinclair, Baton Rouge's name. He said, yeah, I'm friends with Pastor Ricky. Yeah. He told me I should reach out to you. That he's like, if you're offended by this or you don't want to hear that, just disregard his message. But he said you'd be open to receptive to it. And so I'm reading this, and in that moment, it was like, okay. It kind of hit me. I'm an adult now. These stories and this. I mean, not that all, like, my life as a kid was one thing. It was real. But then, like a lot of these people dad was connected with, I didn't know and I shouldn't know, wouldn't know. [01:21:43] Speaker B: Right. [01:21:44] Speaker A: They're. They're out there. There's people out there that are still friends of my fathers and people who are enemies of my father, people that he. He actually testified against and put in prison. They're out now and they're contacting me on social media. So I have to make. As far as I need to make a decision now because this is not gonna be. I don't believe this will be the first time. Yeah. So I need to think how I'm going to navigate this going forward. The rest of my family would. No else would even answer that message. They would have just, you know, blew it off. My. The rest of my family's not. Is different. They. They don't speak about my father publicly. We don't talk about it privately. They just, you know, just kind of running from it, if you will. That's the way they've dealt with. I'm more head on with it. So I said, well, I'm either going to tell this guy to F off, you know. [01:22:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:23] Speaker A: Block him. Telling me at the store. I gotta, you know, I got a couple things I want to show him or I. I look. Okay. Well, he's not an aggressive way. He's not upset. He said, actually what your dad did save my life. He said because I was. I was in a really dark place, had gotten away from the values I was raised in. And he said if. If I wouldn't have went to prison, then I would end up dying along with, you know, I would have been much longer. Likely would have been killed maybe by some of the. My own cartel guys. He's like, so you dad putting me away. Actually, I was able to get my life back on track, so I'm thankful what he did. So I said, look, Man. Okay, well, let's talk. You know, I'm willing to. I'm sorry. You know, I'm sorry my dad testified against you, but I'm glad it worked out for you. And we, you know, we, we. I became friends. We started chatting a lot and talking, and I even at the time, I just got engaged, get married. I invited him to the wedding, and he was going to come. It was for us to meet the first time. And then he tragically died of heart attack one night before I got to meet him. And I was really interested in getting to meet him, but that set the course. When I look at, as I encounter these people that were. That were affiliated with my father, how I'm going to proceed, you know. So a few years later, I see. I knew Paula. I didn't know much about him. I knew he had. I knew he had children. I didn't know, like, their ages or how many or whatever he had. So I see an article, so I post on Facebook, and it's about Juan Pablo Escobar's son, who's doing public speaking now to kids, you know, telling them not to go the way of the cartels, the glamour, all the stuff you see on these narco shows and all this stuff. That's not the reality of it, right? And one of the stories he talks about, we. We're on the run because we had all these people, you know, looking for us. We're sitting and sitting this apartment, and I have a crate on the floor of $3 million in cash, all $100 bills. And there's a food store, a grocery store across the street. And I didn't eat for three days, and I had 3 million cash. I could walk right across the street to the bakery, and I didn't have any bread because I was. I had so many people out to get us, I was scared to cross the street. So is. How great is to have $3 million when you can't cross the street living like a peasant? [01:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah, he's got a great story. [01:24:18] Speaker A: He said so. And I was seeing how he talks to these kids doing it. So I thought, that's really big of him, you know, that he's trying to steer kids and he goes a lot to big, big following Mexico because he speaks to all the car. You know, the cartels are so active now. He fills up stadiums now, speaking to kids. But so I saw this and that. Look, I see on there, he's actually. So. Look, I did a little research on him. He's my age. He's only three he was born like three months after me, and then his younger sister is my little sister's age. So I just felt a little connection with him. And I said, well, if he's reaching out doing this. And that's all where. If you listen to know about his dad had the defense minister of Colombia kill Rodrigo Lara. And that's when the government really went after him. He had reached out to. [01:25:00] Speaker B: Biggest mistake he ever. [01:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that was, that was, that was the. Yeah. And Juan Paulo even says that that was that. That was when it went too far. [01:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:07] Speaker A: When it came crumbling. But he had reached out to Rodrigo, one of Rodriguez or all Rodrigo Laura's children, and none of them were willing to talk with him except one of them, one of the sons was. And they, they flew in that and filmed it for documentary. It's all he found on Netflix or wherever. But it was just, it was just in Spanish. And I watched it with the, you know, with the subtitles. So I just felt like, okay, well, if he's willing to do this, it's like, you know, I think it's pretty big. I was, I was gonna contact the person that wrote the articles, like a New York Times article, see if they give me in touch with him. But then I see at the end of the article that his Twitter handle on there. At the time I had a X now, but I had a Twitter handle. And so I, I prayed about it and I typed up a message and sent it to him. And I was married at the time. Ex wife was like, you know, don't get your feelings hurt if he doesn't respond. He, he probably had millions of followers and stuff. And he's like. And even if he sees he may go also, I just feel it's the right thing to do. I'm just, I just sent the message and I wake up the next morning, you are responding. And he's very receptive. And we began talking and then we ended up flying. I flew to Mexico City because he's, he's him and his family's still not allowed in America and never. I don't think it will be. [01:26:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:15] Speaker A: I flew to Mexico City in September 2016 and met with him face to face. And we actually had filmed it to make a documentary out of. At some point, out of the footage. But we, we're still really close friends this day. You know, when I speak to him, I refer to him as brother. You know, he's a. I, I, I, I, I knew it was going to be a good, a good, you know, a good relationship. But I really didn't. I never could have saw how authentic and real it would be. Even this, this many years later. Like when, if I, if I'm in a bad spot and I need something, I contact him, him, you know, and he's there for me every time. [01:26:47] Speaker B: That's awesome. [01:26:48] Speaker A: And, and similar when he's going through something, he'll contact me. We, we have a unique perspective on life with, you know, of course, like we came with. Yeah. And one thing he says is this. In the original message, I, I pretty much let it off by saying, look, you know, I see you out there speaking people forgiveness. And I just wanted at first to ask would you be willing to forgive my father for him being, for testify. Being willing to testify against your dad. And to this day he says, look, I travel the world rightly so, asking people if they'll forgive his family for things his father did. He said, but until this day, no one's ever asked me if I could forgive them. Except for Aaron Seal. Aaron Seal asked me to if could I forgive him? He said, of course. And he's, and he'll tell people, you know that. He said. He said, I've learned Aaron Steele, Aaron still taught me the most I've, I've ever learned about forgiveness. He said his family, from what they've been through and that they're able to reach out to people like us and forgive and offer famous and friendship. He said they've reached a level of spiritual understanding that we need to, we need to, we can learn from. I think that's a very, very nice thing him to say, I just did what I felt was the right thing to do. [01:27:50] Speaker B: Paying it forward and he's rebuilding relationships and, you know, has become an architect and all that other stuff. [01:27:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:56] Speaker B: So you guys have a lot more in common too. [01:27:59] Speaker A: And I like that part. One thing that drew me to him when he said that's the reason he became an architect when he went to, when they moved to Argentina, he went back to school to be an architect because, because my father knocked so many buildings down, I wanted to try to build some back up. That's admirable. You know, it's another type of guy I can, I could, you know, I can, I can converse with. [01:28:18] Speaker B: That's a lot in common with, with him. So if your kids now were to ask what's the big picture? What is, what does all this actually mean? How would you summarize the, the experience in, in terms of you going on shows like this and, and trying to, to tell your story Your, Your father's story and getting that stuff out there. What is. Yeah. You have kids that come to you at one point and just say, you know, what does all this mean? Why. Why are you promoting the story? What. What is your purpose here? What would you say? [01:28:50] Speaker A: Biological children? I don't personally have any biological. [01:28:53] Speaker B: I know. I'm just. Okay. [01:28:54] Speaker A: I have to. I have to rescue dog. Shout out. Echo and Enoch. Young people. [01:28:59] Speaker B: Yeah, we have a. [01:29:01] Speaker A: They start talking to me. Yeah. I'm. I'm gonna do a whole new show based upon them. [01:29:04] Speaker B: Name one of them. Claude. And you've got it in. [01:29:07] Speaker A: So you're talking. So if young people come to me asking me, yeah, kind of, what's the [01:29:10] Speaker B: purpose of spreading the message about your dad and, and telling these stories, you know, what's. What does it all mean? [01:29:17] Speaker A: Well, I, I, mainly I, I speak about my dad because people were interested in it. You know, people ask. And so, And I, I. A lot of it, you know, I like to. To clear up, like, like you were asking questions to clarify things about. People may not know. So I enjoy doing that. You know, people that are. If you don't call them fans. But people are interested in his story and they derive, you know, enjoyment from it. It. To talk about him in those moments. It brings my dad back. It makes, you know, it makes it feel like he's there, you know, to remember him and celebrate him and celebrate the good. The good things about him, also acknowledging the mistakes he made. You know, I don't. I don't try to glorify, you know, anything he did or anything I've done wrong or excuse it. I just try to take an honest look at it and let, you know, kind of let people make their decisions from that. That. And then, you know, the. For the. My personal experience with it, what I walked through with it was that the way I was able to come to the place of forgiveness and, And. And becoming friends with these people who should be, you know, still, you know, friends and family that think that's just important that I did that, you know, that I was able to grow, reach that much growth on my own to my own life and. But through God's help, I, I think that message is important for others that, that maybe, you know, think they. They can't. I mean, there was time I, like you'd ask me, would I forgive those people. I probably told you, even if I wanted to, it's not possible. I could. I can't do it. You know, even. Even I really wanted to do that. It's I, I, you understand? I'm saying like I don't know that it's not humanly possible because it's not, I don't, I don't believe this. But it is possible with God's help. And so I think that's important if people can hear this. So you know what if he can forgive those people for that, maybe I can forgive so and so for something smaller than what they did or maybe something greater than. I think it's important that we don't carry that baggage around with us all. It does, it weighs you down. It does nothing to help, it does nothing to hurt the person you're mad at. Their life's not changed one iota negatively because you're sitting there pissed off at them. Yeah. You know, and I just think it's, I think it's part of our spiritual growth and evolution. That's, it's something that if we can do it and if we're, and if we're humble ourselves and try to look at the things that we've done, they may not be as great as murdering someone, you know, but they, but that doesn't make them any less of, of doing something wrong. [01:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:22] Speaker A: And if we can just take a look at it and, and, and humbly, humbly ask God to help us with. I think everybody can, can, can arrive at that place in their time and I think it's important because spiritual growth, your character development and just dealing with life the way it is and the reality of it. [01:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:39] Speaker A: I didn't ask for these things. I wasn't, I didn't ask to be born in this family. I didn't ask to have this situation. It was dumped. That was dumped on me. If he was innocent at the time. A nine year old boy was innocent. So I could gripe, I could hold people. Would no one hold against me if I want to point my fist in judgment, but I'm, I'm choosing not to. [01:31:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I admire you for that. I think that's great. I think a lot of people should take a page out of that book. [01:31:59] Speaker A: I think the world, I think we could all get along a little better if everybody was. It took advice at least to some degree. [01:32:04] Speaker B: Get over yourself. Right? [01:32:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [01:32:07] Speaker B: So I would be remiss too if I didn't ask about the movie. So I'm sure this has been something. You get asked a lot. But American, no, the American made. What would you do differently? How much of that is as I, I, I recognize how much Hollywood does with a lot of these stories. But how much of your dad's story was mistold and what would you do differently with that movie? [01:32:31] Speaker A: To be honest, I really enjoyed the film. I was a consultant on the film. The rest of my. My mother and my other siblings were. I made a deal with Universal to guess consultants for it. I, I enjoyed it as a movie. I tried to look at it as a film and remove myself, my family from it. I gave it like for 8.5 as an entertaining film. It's not a biopic. They, they didn't go into it. They told us going in, you're not going to recognize a whole lot of these scenes, you know, because they've taken. Create a creative license with it. So we're just taking a fresh take because a lot of people know this is the second movie made by my dad. They, they. And that's part of the reason Universal did this. They knew the film that came out in the early, early 90s. They said the Berry Seal story has been told once. So we want to. We want to tell it in a different way, a new, fresh way. The historical parts are going to be accurate. My dad worked for the CIA. He worked for the White House. He worked for the cartel. All those things are historically accurate. Some of the scenes you might not recognize, like the IRS scene that was. My mom did come down with all the jewels on that. That was something they. From us collaborating with them that they got that. That you know the mean Arkansas. We did. He did have an airport he used in Mina. Did all these things up there. I've been to that airport. We just never lived in Mina. The original script was titled Mina. It was a guy researched online some of that story and he wrote it from Mina. The original title, the original. The movie was going to be titled. It'd be called Mina. And after Universal Water they changed it to American made. So I know what they were doing with the movie. So I don't. I think it's great. I don't, you know, the. It's not. Again, it's not a biopic. It's even in the, in the. If some people remember some of the posters and stuff when they advertise the movie, it says based on a true lie. You know the word play in there. It's. It's, you know, something a lot of people don't realize. And I didn't even know this until the director's cut edition of it. If you get that when they did the interviews. I have an interview on there. But they interview Tom Cruise and then they Interview the producer, Doug Lyman. Doug Lyman jumped on this film when, when Universal approached him with it because he grew up hearing the stories of Iron Contra stuff and the, the cocaine for guns and stuff because his father, Arthur Lyman, was an attorney for the Democratic National Committee that was prosecuting the Reagan administration officials over Iran Contra. So he was in college age at that time, hearing his dad come home from the office talking about all the stuff he's doing, the, the prosecuting. And so he hears this and he said, wow, I heard all these stories from the bureaucratic end, if you will, growing up, right. And I'd like to direct this film. So this is one of the pilots and how an actual pilot that, that the Reagan administration was using, how his life was actually affected. He felt, he said, I fell in love with the story right then. So that, so you know, it's. I think it's a great film. Again, it was told in 91. I don't know if you're familiar with that. [01:35:21] Speaker B: I'm not. I know I didn't see. [01:35:23] Speaker A: You're old enough to remember Dennis Hopper plays. [01:35:25] Speaker B: And of course. [01:35:26] Speaker A: Oh yeah, in 91 when HBO was the big, a big deal, it was a two part HBO miniseries that came out called the. The Berry Seal Store Double Cross. The Berry Seal Story. Dennis Hopper plays my dad, Adrian Barbo plays my mom. They have me and my brother in it. They don't show as like teenagers at that time. Like they showed us older and an American maid had us as infants. It's both wrong, you know, so yeah, the, the first film they did based upon court testimony just they, they had the, the part in there with the CIA putting the cameras on his plane. But they know at that time the extent of his work with the CIA. So they just show that part of the CIA and you know, putting the cameras on his plane. But the rest of it they just showed what, what they were, what. Anything that was testified in court is what they basically did the first film off of. So this one's a little, much more, a little more Hollywooded up. But if it also captured some parts, the first one maybe. Didn't I get asked often, well, who played your. Who, who did you that better? Dennis Hopper or Tom Cruise? And I think that, you know, they both captured certain elements of my dad's Persona. If you put both of them together, that would be a more accurate depiction of him, in my opinion. They both captured some things good and got some things wrong. [01:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And a lot of those parts of the story too are, are less on his personal side, too. A lot of them are the actual operational stuff, too, which only other people were privy to anyway, so that, that. But I just got to be a fascinating way to watch it. It's like watching the Michael Jackson movie and hearing his kids talk about it when their perception of him is completely different than the Persona that he portrayed out in the same with your dad when he was out at work. I mean, that's what made him famous. But that's not the guy you knew at all, right? [01:37:06] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:37:07] Speaker B: There's a version of this that doesn't make it here. The part I only send to the mailing list community early before it goes anywhere else. Free links into the description for those who want to be on the inside. Well, it's an honor to have you here, man. I do have a little post gift, you know, I've got and I'm a whiskey guy and I'm. I'll mail this to you so you don't have to worry about it. But this is. This is a whiskey that's made here in Fort Worth that, that I. I quite adore. So if you. Even if you know, you're just not going to cause you problems. [01:37:39] Speaker A: I still drink social. I'll drink. But when I drink, I drink vodka. House Whiskey. Whiskey. I only drink whiskey if on special occasions. So I'll only accept it if, if, if, if. When I drink the whiskey, if I get in some trouble, you'll come bond me out. [01:37:53] Speaker B: I'll bond you out. But whiskey's for sharing with brothers. Yeah, it's shared with brothers, too. So that's the idea is like, yeah, sip responsibly and just share it with somebody and see what they think. [01:38:02] Speaker A: Because I think they're really good in Louisiana still, huh? You have any police connections in Louisiana still, if I need you? [01:38:08] Speaker B: I don't know. I think you'd be the one to have the police connected. [01:38:11] Speaker A: No, they don't like me. Well, I'll get a copy of the book. [01:38:14] Speaker B: Yes. And if you don't. If you don't already have this, this is just. Yeah, this is. [01:38:18] Speaker A: I knew the name of it. I've been meaning to get it. [01:38:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Since you flew out here. It's a short puddle jump, little flight, so you could probably knock out the whole book in that time. But that's just a little. A little something. [01:38:29] Speaker A: How did you do that? Did you publish it yourself? [01:38:31] Speaker B: I ended up publishing it myself because we donate all the profits of the book to charities that mentor children of incarcerated parents. So, you know, with the book deals, you End up getting so little on your book book that we weren't going to really be able to donate very much. So. So like I said, I could tell people say, hey, it's a gift. I hope you enjoy it. I think you'll enjoy it. But if you don't, just keep your mouth shut. [01:38:53] Speaker A: Will do. Will do. [01:38:55] Speaker B: It's an honor to have you here, brother. Thank you for being here. [01:38:58] Speaker A: Oh, thank you for having me. It's an honor to do your show, man. I've, I know. I've researched your story a little bit. I mean, I know the basics of it and I've read some things where, you know, some of the disillusionment you said you had with law enforcement after all that. And. Yeah, and I'd love to have you on my show sometime if you've ever been Baton Rouge or if you have to do remotely if you're interested or. [01:39:18] Speaker B: I do a little. So you always do the little, the, the gambling thing where you're running across to make you a little $30,000 nut. When you were in college. I mean, I was, it was reminding me of the times when I was in college and taken the last $300 I had, put it on black and see what happens. And then drive home broke. [01:39:35] Speaker A: You were let go, too. That's my game. That's the only, the only game. I like to gamble. I like to, I like, like roulette. [01:39:41] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. It's so painful though. [01:39:43] Speaker A: Actually, I, I, I've never done that where I put that much on. Just. But buddy and I would talk like, we get like bad time, like, hey, bro, let's take that money. Just go to the casino, dude, and put it on black and just let it ride. Just let it ride. It's tempting. It's tempting. [01:39:55] Speaker B: You lose that once, you're you makes you nuts. And you lose it twice, you're like, I'm not playing no roulette anymore. [01:40:01] Speaker A: This is stupid that it's the only game I've ever won at, though. The other, for some reason, I, the, if I don't know that. I mean, I don't give a lot. I won't say. I don't know if I'm ahead overall with doing it because I haven't played all that much. But other games I lose right away. If I said blackjack, no matter what it is, I don't think I've ever won. I've never walked away from a table up anything except for roulette. I don't, you know. [01:40:21] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you're probably the most honest gambler I've ever met because most of them are about even and everything. There is no way. Everyone is still sort of. [01:40:30] Speaker A: The casinos wouldn't be able to be banks, you know, and there's the. There's one thing now is I really don't gamble anymore. Just recently, I was talking to somebody about. About. I said, you know what? Because if I. If I say I went in. In. In 120 grand tomorrow, and then maybe. Or if, you know, the joy that I would get from that is not greater than the pain I would have if I lost 20 grand. Like, if I just. If I go and lose 20, like, the. The excitement of winning 20 is not. It doesn't outweigh it when I. It's just not worth it. [01:40:57] Speaker B: And that winning the 20 gives you the incentive to go re. Gambling, which is when you do lose it. [01:41:02] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:41:03] Speaker B: So, yeah, no, I don't really either. I do little bits on sports and stuff, but it's little bits. I mean, I've always. Can't. I. I always enjoy doing little bits of. [01:41:13] Speaker A: I bet on football back in the day when I. When I was. Especially when I was selling drugs and I had money that. That I could risk losing. I haven't since they made it legal. It's strange. They made it legal. I have. I haven't even done it, you know, so. [01:41:23] Speaker B: Changes it a little. [01:41:25] Speaker A: But, yeah, back then, the money was more for the, you know, I couldn't watch a football game. I've had three to five hundred dollars bet on. It just wasn't fun, you know. But. Yeah, and then probably 300 with the dope during the game. [01:41:33] Speaker B: But if, you know, hey, they're gonna break my hands if I don't pay this back. [01:41:37] Speaker A: A little bit more to it. Yeah. [01:41:40] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate it, bro. [01:41:41] Speaker A: Man, thank you for having me. It was just been. [01:41:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Let me know what I can. Where I can direct you. I know Johnny's got some good stuff, too. If you spend any time in Fort Worth, I think you're gonna really dig it. [01:41:49] Speaker A: Okay. [01:41:49] Speaker B: It's a very cool place. I mean, it's hot as hell right now, but it's a cool place. [01:41:52] Speaker A: It's hot out there. [01:41:54] Speaker B: But you're from Louisiana, so. [01:41:55] Speaker A: Yes. It's not as muggy as I. I lived in Houston for a little while, so I'm kind of familiar with tackles. [01:42:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I did too. Where'd you live in Houston? Houston. [01:42:03] Speaker A: At first, when I was first there, I was in. Was it spring? Spring, yeah. And then. Then after that, I moved down to Seabrook. [01:42:12] Speaker B: Okay. Seabrook is south. [01:42:14] Speaker A: Like south south south. Way much more south. [01:42:17] Speaker B: Okay. [01:42:18] Speaker A: South Houston. Like by Kemah. By the Kemah border. [01:42:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [01:42:21] Speaker A: So almost the Galveston, Seabrook and Chemo. Touch. [01:42:23] Speaker B: Okay. Right. [01:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that area. Hello. When I was in cb, I was working after one of the hurricanes out there, there. And after staying in Seabrook, I thought, yeah, I could live here, you know, because it's like a small town, but you drive 40 minutes to the city, but you don't feel like you're. When you're in Seabrook, you don't feel like you're in a huge city. [01:42:39] Speaker B: Right. And you're near the water. [01:42:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Beautiful. I didn't know that existed. I didn't know Houston even had that kind of area until I went out there. [01:42:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And they've kept. They've consistently improved it since I've been down there, too. I was. I'm a lot older than you. [01:42:53] Speaker A: Were you born and raised here in Fort Worth North? [01:42:55] Speaker B: No, I ended up coming up here to study music at North Texas State from. From where I actually graduated high school in Houston. But we lived in. We lived in Katy. [01:43:04] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [01:43:05] Speaker B: But I. I moved every two years of my life until I hit high school there. So, you know, we've lived all over the Northeast and in Austin and Houston a bunch of different times. Never in. Never in Louisiana, though. I'm across Louisiana a crazy ton of times, but I've never. I've never spent any significant time other than Baton Rouge. When I was a professional musician, we used to gig there a lot. [01:43:31] Speaker A: Remember. Do you remember the. The venues? [01:43:34] Speaker B: No, but I'm trying to remember. The name of the band was. Man, they had a hit, and they were from Baton Rouge, and we used to go open for them there, and then we had a following here so that when they traveled through Dallas, just they would open, not Spank the Monkey. [01:43:52] Speaker A: Better than Ezra. [01:43:54] Speaker B: Better than Ezra. Yeah. [01:43:55] Speaker A: Okay. [01:43:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, better than Ezra. So we used to swap off, you know, in town, opening for one another when we had. Because we had access to good. You know, that was. That's a rough way to make a living. But, you know, when you can get a big venue on a Friday night and then get somebody to open for you, when you're opening, you're still playing at a prime time, so. And it was vice versa. They had a. A significant following as that tune was coming out. [01:44:16] Speaker A: How was the Russia doing that different than the. The law enforcement, or was it the same? [01:44:23] Speaker B: Man, it was a lot different because really I was playing like a regional circuit and, you know, and living Adam and 87 suburban and days in and reached that level. Yeah. No, yeah. It wasn't. It wasn't in a bus. You know, I aspired to do that at one point. I got friends that still do it for a living that. That travel in high luxury. But at. At my age now, I look back like, man, that is not something I would like to do now. When I was young, I was all about it, but no, thanks. [01:44:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks again for having me. [01:44:50] Speaker B: Yes, sir. [01:44:51] Speaker A: It's been. It's been. It's been a pleasure. [01:44:52] Speaker B: Hey, dig it. What's it take? What you going to do what you're going to do Success around the sand the second grade rules A confident fee to make you do what they want when they won't be the fool A diplomatic base is the one to see it through don't let those bigots take you off your game or just let him lose Sit here in the front seat Baby, ain't that sweet? Take a little honey from the money be but don't pay the fool an hypolitical magical potion A missing beast at the end of the game A slow roll See the truth in soul motion I never found in 60 frames like 5 wine and motion the truth lies between blurry lines if you're gonna call me.