I Stopped Hating Myself & Learned to Sing Again - Guest: dUg Pinnick of Kings X

[00:00:00] Speaker A: When my mom left, I remember it was devastating. I was three. I'll never forget that day because it changed my attitude towards the whole world. I have to find out why my mommy don't like me and why nobody likes me, what's wrong with me. And when I look back on my whole life, I wouldn't change anything. And the only reason is because I'm okay now. I am exactly right here where I'm supposed to be. Because this is what the universe wants. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Even the bad stuff. [00:00:32] Speaker A: That's his point. How do you get there unless you go through the bad stuff, right? I've always started out with a riff. Even when the first song I ever wrote, I was 18, and I made up a guitar riff and I really couldn't play any of the instruments, but I knew what I wanted to hear and I could get to the instrument and play and say, this is what I want you to do. And they'd play it, play this. Just play it faster, play it better. Yeah. When I sing, I'm never emotional, but I can emulate the emotion. And now I'm pulling out old records going, dude, you were really in pain, dude. Well, I'm glad you're out of that now. All those years and most people don't know you gay, you know, and it's like, it's obvious I didn't care. I didn't go around telling everybody I was doing an interview for this Christian magazine. But I thought to myself, just go ahead and say it. And I did. All the Christian record stores barred King's X Records. And I remember tied to saying, good, now we can go be who we want to be and make music the way we want to. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Well, it's the land of the freedom. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Home of the brave. Stay out in the house of the community. Leave them alone and what they're gonna say. With the big black markets here to say. [00:02:03] Speaker B: So my next guest is a cross genre rock God. Not only considered so by his dedicated fans, but also by famous and highly esteemed musicians across the world, to name just a few. Here are some of the musicians and bands who claim to be inspired by this cat. Jeff Ament, Pearl Jam, Chris Cornell, Alison Chains, Andy Summers of the Police, Mick Mars, Motley Crue, the late Ronnie James Dio, Billy Corgan and Smashing Pumpkins. Scott Ian, George Lynch, Eric Gales, the late Dimebag Darrell and Rex Brown of Pantera, Vernon Reed of Living Color, Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top, U2's Bono, Joe Satriani and Richie Blackmore, who actually offered this cat a job as the lead singer for Deep Purple at one point, and even the great Nile Rogers. So, as you know, this channel is predicated upon bringing independent thinkers together, even those who think differently. So for those of you who've already heard of this cat, I want to present to you a truly caring and relatable human being. And for those who have not heard of him, I wish to present to you a man of talent who will blow your mind and bring inspiration to your life, especially in light of his humility. So without further ado, please help me in welcoming to the podcast Mr. Doug Pinnick of King's X. [00:03:24] Speaker A: Over My Head. All right. [00:03:35] Speaker B: But I did want to start with, with a different take on you're being raised by your great grandmother. And kind of a two pronged question here. One, how did that come to be? Because I'm not familiar with why you were raised by your great grandmother. And then now that we're old and you just. Happy belated. 75. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:58] Speaker B: So you're 75 now. Does any of her lessons or anything come back to mind now that you're kind of at an age where she would have been when she was teaching you things, whether it's in your writing or just life in general? [00:04:12] Speaker A: Let me try to condense this. My great grandmother's daughter had my mother out of wedlock and my mother had me out of wedlock, and she sort of, kind of, I don't know if she did that with my mom, but we were left with the great grandma to take care of us both. My grandmother left and had her another world, and my mother left and had another world. So my great grandmother was stuck with us. I shouldn't say stuck with us, but she kept us. And you know, it's funny how people kind of don't want to be disrespectful to their parents and stuff like that and try to be nice. You know, families go, don't say that about so and so. But my great grandmother, she did everything she could, the best she could, but she was the daughter of an ex slave. She wasn't very nurturing. She wasn't outgoing to you. You just kind of existed. And she didn't talk much. She's very quiet all the time, and she complained about everybody else and what they were doing wrong. And as a child, I lived with her for 15, 14 years, and none of her 10 children would come visit her except for the boys would come into the house, give her 20 bucks, talk to her for a half hour, and leave once in a while, all the spouses and the children never came to the house and never came inside to say hi to her. I never thought anything of it. I just always wondered why. But even the wives would sit in the car. They didn't even go in the house. So, you know, I'm looking at all this stuff going on, thinking, and everybody's acting like everything's great. So I'm like going, okay, this is the way it is. And I always tell this story, and it's not to have anybody feel sorry for me, but when my mom left when I was three, she was thrown out, which I didn't know until I was 65. So I was mad at her, thinking she just left me, but that she was thrown out. And so 65 years I was mad at her, so I had to get through that. [00:06:27] Speaker B: Thrown out by whom, huh? Thrown out by whom? [00:06:31] Speaker A: Her mother or her grand. Her great grandmother? The woman that raised me, okay, because again, she was pregnant out of wedlock. And then back in the 50s, when I was born, I didn't know anybody didn't have a daddy but me. I mean, unwed mother was just a complete disgrace. And they hid it, whatever people got married, whatever they did, you know, but it was, it was the 50s, you know, everybody was playing that game at mask and. But when my mom left, I remember it was devastating. I was three and she. One day I asked my grandma, I want my mommy. And I was just pretty much as a three year old would do, freaking out, his mommy's gone, okay? And she grabbed me and shook me and said, quit your ballerin. She don't want to be bothered with you. Anyway. I never forget that day because that day was like, okay. And it changed my attitude towards the whole world. At that point I have to find out why my mommy don't like me and why nobody likes me. What's wrong with me? And so my whole journey was to figure out what's wrong with me. And the more I looked, the more I found more things wrong with me. Well, yeah. And the good thing about it was at the end of it, I found my way out of it, which was a miracle. Around 70 is when I started coming out of that whole funk. But at 75 now, I look back at her and just realize she did the best she could. My grandma did the best she could. My mom did the best she could. My grandma had 16 kids and my great grandma had 10. And we all lived in the north, we didn't live in the South. So the whole family's been there since the 1800s, we could read and write. We hung out with white people. I went to school with white kids. We were. There was like, maybe five or six black families in the area. South, Southern part of. Or southern part of Chicago, outside the city. We're about 40 miles outside of Chicago. Okay. And it was just an area. It was a coal mine, and black folks just needed work. And all of a sudden, it was like a little settlement, and they all started marrying each other, and everybody's having kids. So almost every one of them is my relatives. They were separating people. They were sending people off to live somewhere else because so and so is getting ready to have a baby with a cousin of who literally. It got that crazy when my grandma was shuffling babies around and keeping people from each other because illegitimacy was happening, but nobody wanted to talk about it. So when all of a sudden, so and so's dating, so and so you go, wait a minute. That's your uncle's child. But nobody told us that's, you know. And so that got crazy. And even in my immediate family, like, my dad had two kids when I was born by his wife, and he went on to have three more. I dated my first cousin, which was his brother's. Which was his. Which was my dad's brother. Illegitimate daughter. And when we. I said, you know, I just found out who my daddy is. You know, I was going to high school. I just moved in with my mom, and I just met my dad. And she said. And I says, and you go to high school with some of my brother. I mean, some of my cousins and my brother, and blah, blah, blah. I was all excited because these are new people that I had met. And she goes, who's your daddy? And I told her. She said, well, mine is, you know. And we laughed and went, so we're first cousins. He goes, yes, damn it. There's no more dating there. Damn it. But, yeah, but, you know, yeah, I've had a crazy, crazy, crazy life for sure. [00:10:07] Speaker B: So maybe some of those lessons were lessons that you didn't necessarily take and apply them, but they were lessons that you avoided. [00:10:17] Speaker A: No, I think I applied them all, you know, my whole life ended up, if you want to say, desperately needing to feel that I belong and understood through my psychological journey, that's what I found. The crux of everything that I had done is because that child just wants to feel like he belongs and for people to understand him. What I Learned after almost 75 years of beating my head over, you know, beating myself down, I realized it's all inside me. I have to accept myself and I don't have to explain myself to anyone. And all of a sudden, it's like this big weight lifted, I bet. And then it was like it opened the jar. Then all this stuff started to come out that I didn't know was in there that was driving me to be the person I didn't want to be. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Stuff that you were just able to. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Let go, that you were. Well, they call it the shadows. I faced my shadows and I embraced all the things I hate about myself to the point where now I understand that that is my strength. And that's. That's why I feel different. And that's why I feel like I don't belong. And. And it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing, you know, and, you know, live your life and look back at your life and see what. What. What's brought to here. And I look back on this, the incredible journey that I've had that I didn't pay attention to. Now I look back and go, oh, you've always been doing that. Now you're aware of it now you. Now it means something. [00:12:11] Speaker B: I can appreciate it. [00:12:12] Speaker A: I can appreciate it. Yeah. [00:12:13] Speaker B: That's beautiful. [00:12:14] Speaker A: You know, so many times, you know, when people come up to me and say they're alive because of a song they heard off of a King's X record three decades ago, a guy says to me, my wife put the gun down when she heard Summerland. And, you know, a trans person came up and said, I was gonna kill myself. But you said, don't give a fuck about what anybody thinks and be yourself. I said that from stage one night in a song. And the next time I came to that town, she came up and said, thank you. [00:12:53] Speaker B: Wow. [00:12:55] Speaker A: Even Taylor Swift's guitar player said he was gonna give up guitar playing. And he came to a King's X show in la and I said the same story about just empowering people. Yeah. And he decided not to give up. And now he's a head guitar coordinator for Taylor Swift. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Love it. [00:13:14] Speaker A: And he came up and said, I just want to thank you, you know, and so I don't never. I never went out to be this. I just went out to feel like I belong. And I see everybody that I see. I see the child in them and I see they just want to be seen. Like, I want to be seen, you know, and so let's hang out. Let's see each other. I love it. You know, and it's hard to allow yourself to Be seen. And it's important to learn how to let someone let their guard down so they can be seen without being afraid to be seen. [00:13:54] Speaker B: I think that's absolutely true. When you take that lesson forward, as hard of a time as you had and more of an excuse not to be seen. I think we all feel that way, especially now, since all you have to do is expose one little thing and, you know, it's gone everywhere. So it's a little too late to get it back. Right. [00:14:11] Speaker A: I've dealt with that. I think, you know, I've. You know, somebody got into my pictures and I thought, well, there it is. Yep. Too bad I got nothing to hide, you know, not anymore, you can't. You know, you get to a place in your life where if you. If anything bothers you, then you have a problem with yourself. And that's what I had to get to is like, whatever you throw at me, if I know it ain't true, I'm not going to walk away and let it lay in my head for the next five years and make me change my clothes or change the way I write music or change who I am. If it's not true, it's not true. But how do you do that until you know who you are? [00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:00] Speaker A: And that you're aware of those manipulative people who see the good in you and want to take it from you because they're out there. They're jealous. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:15:12] Speaker A: And so, you know, those are. You know, one day I open my eyes up, you know, and I'm going, oh, my God. I didn't realize there was all these people around us that are literally sucking the life out of people. [00:15:26] Speaker B: What was the epiphany that you. I mean, you talk about that when you turned 70, you just kind of had that awakening. What was something that prompted it? Or was it just the fact that you had a birthday and thought it was, you know, a pivotal time in. [00:15:40] Speaker A: Life or what, two things? Yeah, I mean, it seems like things. My whole life changes every 10 years, and I was born in 1950. Every 10 years, there's a whole new era that happens. I have a whole new learning experience that I go through. And I had turned 70, and I had just got a new phone. And many times I've grabbed the camera or the phone and just ran it and raved at it how I really feel. Just dropped the mask, dropped everything and just fucking cried out and everything. Just how I felt about life and myself. And I never could watch it back. As soon as I'd see myself tear over my face. I hated it. I was like, you pathetic little. You know. And that's all I felt. And I'd turn it off. This time I did it. I was like, at the bottom again in my mind, and I'm beating myself up. And so I said, I'm going to do this. And I went and rattled off all this stuff, cried the whole deal. And then at the end of it, I said, you're not going to watch this anyway. Then I stopped and I went, if you watch this, tell me what you learned. I turned it off two days later because I didn't want to do it two years later. I mean, two days later. I'm sorry. I turned it on and watched it. I made it to the end, and when I said to myself, tell me what you learned. And I busted out laughing. And I said to myself, what was the big fucking deal? It was like it all made sense. [00:17:18] Speaker B: It's almost like you're counseling your best friend, only you're getting to see the reflection and say, this is what I would tell someone else. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Right. And I needed to hear that for myself, to see it rather than to feel like everybody made me feel that way. [00:17:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:36] Speaker A: Because I let the world make me feel like I was not a big deal. And that's what drove me crazy. Because it's like having a parent who says, you're the greatest thing in the world, another parent who says, you're nothing. That's. My whole life has been that way. As soon as I opened up my mouth to sing, I remember I was singing in church, and I was probably four, three or four years old, or maybe five, I don't know. But my aunt came up and she got on her knees and she put her hands on my shoulders like this. I was really little, and she said, God has given you a gift. And she started praying for him. And she was Pentecostal, so she started praying in tongues. She told me that God is going to do all these things for me. He's going to make me a leader and blah, blah, blah. And I remember looking around the church thinking, what is he talking about? And I just want to go out and play. But from that point on, every time I sang, which is probably the only thing it seems like people reacted to is when I sang, people just go and cry and just react. And so that was sort of like, that was my identity. And I know that I didn't do it to be liked, but it was just something that nobody complained about. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Did it actually. I know it was Kind of a natural thing for you. But was it something that you enjoyed, or do you think you. Initially, at least, you think you pursued it because it was kind of one of the positive. [00:19:08] Speaker A: No, I just did it. I loved to sing. I was always singing. In grade school, high school, I was in the madrigals. I was in the choir. I remember in grade school, the teacher. I could do harmonies, you know, and my teacher would make me sit in different sections and sing the harmonies with them. When I was like 10 years old, I was one of those kids. I just wasn't around. I didn't grow up with a family of musicians, so I didn't have that stuff interesting. It wasn't encouraged. What I found out that was. My dad's family was like that, but I didn't know my dad and I had. My dad's sister was perfect pitch. She got on a piano, started playing when she was 3. And I didn't know that until I was grown, you know, so. So in my mother's family, which I grew up in, they were. They're more analytical, very smart people. Very. I love the Pinnock family because they are just such a proud family who. They just don't take no bullshit. I've always loved them about them and that. So that's the side I grew up in. So there was very seldom ever instruments or anything in anybody's house. All my aunts and uncles, nobody had pianos, guitars or anything. Everybody listened to the radio, you know, and many of my relatives had record players because I'd go over their house and listen to their records all the time. [00:20:27] Speaker B: Right. That was more popular than TV in a lot of cases in the 50s, at least. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Yeah. We didn't have TV. I remember I. I was 12 when we got a TV. Yeah. I think I was 10 when we got an indoor bathroom, you know, so. [00:20:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Good old days. Yeah. I forgot where we're going with this, but. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Well, I went on the table. [00:20:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Because you want to know about what happened when I was a kid. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And just. And the. The motivation for singing being kind of natural. Your inclination was natural. Now you're saying it's kind of hereditary, but still, it was. It was a passion. [00:21:02] Speaker A: Still. It's natural. Yeah. Because, I mean, anything that you have, naturally, you got to hone in on it, you know. All my. All my brothers and sisters on my dad's side, and almost. Almost all of them can sing, but very few of them have stepped up to the plate and tried and made it an art, you know, they can you know, they can sing in the choir. They can sing along on the record. [00:21:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:23] Speaker A: But I went up and went, okay, I'm going to make a statement with my voice. I didn't do that on purpose, but I see now that that's what I was doing. You know, I don't know if. And, you know, I wanted. As I went through the shadow work, I realized, well, am I singing because I want to be liked and feel like I fit in, or am I singing because this is what I do? [00:21:44] Speaker B: That was kind of my. Where I'm getting at? [00:21:46] Speaker A: And I had to get to that. I had to sit down there, and it took a while to go back and go, okay, why are you doing this? And then I thought, you know, my mom said when she used to play records before she left, I would listen to the music and sing along. And she said I could sing before I could talk. And she said I would sing along with stuff. And she said when I turned. She turned the record player off, I'd start crying, and I'd yell, gimme. Yay. Give me Yay. And she said she didn't understand what I was saying. And now I look back and go, she was playing Little Richard and rock and roll. You know, people going, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't know what that. And she said, every record that they had, I knew which one I wanted to listen to because I could tell by the way the label was. And that's the other thing that I could draw, like calligraphy. I love writing, and I love the way words connect and how they look, and I like to slide into them. I have, like, five or six different handwriting, the ones that I comfortable with, or if the pen is different or the paper's different. I literally write like another person. I've never had my handwriting analysis, but the way I look at it is just because I'm schizophrenic, I just go from one thing to the other. [00:23:04] Speaker B: And you're a creative. That's what it is. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Never, never settle into anything. I'm always ready to change it up. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. That's pliable. And so how did you actually. And I'm getting ahead of myself, too, so forgive me if I get to the point where I need to stop and check my notes. But how did you actually hone your craft once you got, you know, when you're. When you're just emulating records and you have a natural talent, that's great. You had to have done something. I mean, you've reached a pinnacle of talent and in terms of singing. [00:23:34] Speaker A: Thank you. Well, all through grade school and high school, I was in contests. Everything I sang, everything from blue moon to I'm going to wash that man right out of my hair. I mean, I sang show tunes. I sang everything that there was. I just love music. Back in the day and in school and stuff, people knew I could sing, so they were always asking me to sing something, and I was doing that. But I think what really changed everything was one of my best friends in high school, Dinares Cruda, he started a rock band. Now he's black, and I'm black, and black people don't do rock much. But he started his rock band, and he says, doug, you want to sing in it? And I go, I can't sing. Literally. I remember saying that, because I never thought about doing it like that. I just sang. I got in the car and sang. I walked to the house and sang. [00:24:28] Speaker B: It's never thought of yourself on that level. [00:24:29] Speaker A: Never thought of that. And. And I said. And he says, nah, come on, man. I go, okay. And I started singing in this band. And we. I don't know, we didn't last long. But after that, it was like people started asking me to sing in their band. And around that time, I started playing bass. I was 23, and I started playing bass. I was late, but I wanted to play baseball. Since I was 7, I was obsessed with bass. I'd walk through the house with the broom, playing like I was playing bass. [00:24:57] Speaker B: Really. [00:25:00] Speaker A: I could play bass before I could play bass. Okay. That's the first thing I. [00:25:04] Speaker B: Listen, did you use your scat skills with the bass? [00:25:06] Speaker A: Right? I did. You know, it was funny and. But, oh, the bass thing. Anyway, I started playing, learning how to play bass. And as I got better and got to be in a band to play bass, I'd say, let's get a singer. And they go, no, you sing. And I'm going, I don't sing. And they go, yeah, you do. And it's just been that way ever since, to the point where I. When I started writing songs and the lyrics and everything, at that point, it was just. I just kept doing it. It wasn't like I said, I'm going to do this. It was just. It kind of morphed into that, and now it's a natural thing. [00:25:43] Speaker B: And the bass playing was the same way. You just kind of wrapped it. Do you picked it up and just. Because you obviously had an ear. [00:25:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker B: And you have an ear. So was it kind of just playing by ear and Just learning. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It was because I knew. I knew what I. What I heard in my head, because listening to bass, my whole 20. 20 years of that, for 23 years at that point. [00:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:03] Speaker A: So I knew where I wanted, what I wanted to play, because I'd walk around the house, listen to music. And finally when I got a bass, I remember I played this song by Buddy Miles called Joe Tax. And the riff is. And I remember picking my. The guitar and my friend showed me how to tune it. And I sat down with my fingers and went. And I went, you could barely get. And I want. [00:26:41] Speaker B: That's the lick. [00:26:43] Speaker A: And I remember I jumped out and almost knocked the bass on the ground like. Like I was like, oh, my God, I was so happy. And then, you know, I ended up getting a bass amp. I think a friend of mine loaned it to me or something. We lived in the projects. I still live with my mom at that point where I had moved back in. I was like 23 at that time. And I brought this amp in my bedroom in the projects and played it on 10 all day. [00:27:11] Speaker B: Your neighbors loved you. [00:27:13] Speaker A: Oh, well, in the black neighborhood, you can do that. In the hood, you can make all the noise you want. That's just the way we are. [00:27:21] Speaker B: And are you Native American as well? [00:27:25] Speaker A: Yeah, well, basically my mom. Both my mom and dad are black, white and Indian. Okay. My dad's mother was born on the Indian reservation. She was half black and half white. And his grandfather was half white and half black who came over. His mother had relationships with the slave owner, the boat captain. I'm sorry. And so he was born from them. And his last name was Bates. The Bates family has an emblem that they're a part of the Bates people in England, the black family, they recognize the family. I told and gave him an emblem. And. And on my mom's side, her father, he always said he was Sioux Indian. We don't know what else he was. He had straight black hair and he was really light skinned and. And he looked like a gangster. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:18] Speaker A: And I heard he was a pretty rough dude. And my mom said he never did acknowledge her as his daughter, but she buried him. If you. She. She was the only one around him in this last few years, and she buried him. And my mom's mother, well, my great grandma, who on that side, her mother was half white and half black. She was a slave owner's daughter. And so between all that. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's crazy. [00:28:48] Speaker A: I'm more black than anything else. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to take My, no. [00:28:53] Speaker A: See, the funny thing is because I watched a Little Richard going, I'm Jewish. And you know, and the joke in the black community is, you know, none of us are black. If you go to Africa and then come back to the United States and look at a black person even in Africa. A friend of mine went to Africa, he's black, he's light skinned like me. He went there to preach at this in the Congo somewhere. And the guy got up and said, now today we have a white man who will come and preach to you. And he goes, white man. This literally I'm considered white in Africa. [00:29:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, to that point, the reason why I ask is, as you've mentioned before, however, you were the only black kid or at least at some point in your school. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:37] Speaker B: And great school. And during that period of time too, you're, you know, being Native American as well. I mean, that's even makes you even more unique. That may have made you feel lesser than that, but it should be even more interesting. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I never thought about the Indian thing. Hardly at all. Okay. Ever. Or anything other than. Well, in my family because there's. We're so mixed. One of the funny things is we're always wondering what the kid's gonna look like. And I remember Megan, or whatever her name is, had married what's his face in England, the redhead, what's his name? And she was so upset because the family was wondering what the child would look like. And I'm going, that's what all black people do. We all wonder what it's going to look. And we ask, I know it's going to look like the uncle who looks like he's white or does he look like his grandpa? Going to look like he's black. You know, you never know. I mean, if you see a picture of my mom and my little brother Reggie, Reggie is very dark. And my mother is as white skinned as you are. She would. She couldn't tan. She turned red in the sun. Like, like, you know, and she just hated that. And she hated being that white skin because she just felt not a part of the black community. And you know, but, you know, so. And when she had Reggie, which was the last child, the, the nurse said, mother white, baby black. And my mother cussed her out. Oh my gosh, you know, because my mom just hated that. She hated it when people thought she was white. But yet she went to see Frank Sinatra one time back in the day. And I'm going, you did? She goes, yeah, I went by myself and I'm thinking, wow, black girl going to see Frank Sinatra. I thought, oh, he thought she was white. Maybe that's why she went by herself. Yeah. [00:31:24] Speaker B: So going through school, you mentioned that you didn't necessarily notice it. Was it any kind of struggle being the only black kid? I mean, no, you know, population wise. [00:31:34] Speaker A: It wasn't a struggle. All the kids treated me like I was no problem. [00:31:40] Speaker B: Even in the 50s and 60s. [00:31:41] Speaker A: In the 50s and 60s especially, you know, and 70s, actually, you know, I never got a problem, had a problem with white people and me being black. Never once, in fact, more than once, I've been told, I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but you're the whitest black guy I've ever met. [00:32:02] Speaker B: And I would know how to take that either. [00:32:04] Speaker A: That can be taken as an insult in two ways. One, it's because the worst thing I could be called in the black community is an Uncle Tom. A guy that acts like he's white and hangs out with white people. Right. So when white people say, you're the whitest acting black person, I think, okay, I accept that. But here's the thing. I remember in high school, the testimony that was in high school was when it was very crucial of the 60s and we were separated. You didn't hang out with white kids, black kids hang out with black. Nobody mingled. I had equal amount of friends on both sides and I hung out with both of them and was never called an Uncle Tom. And I have to look back now, and it was just like they liked me. I had a good personality and we all got along. Nobody had nothing bad to say about me. And I think that's what got me through. I didn't know that at the time. I just look back now and realize, how did you navigate that? But in grade school, I was the only black kid in my grade from first grade till seventh. And a black girl moved in in eighth grade and everybody thought we would date and we hated each other because. Yeah. And the only problems I ever had, and I never thought it was a problem, I was just used to it because I was told that there are certain things that black people are not allowed. That's the stupid. And you just, you just accepted it. And one was, I remember this little girl. I used to really liked her and I was a girlfriend. I didn't know anything about that. But we got along, we talked and hung out. So I'd go buy her house on the way home from school and hang out for a while and then go home and then one day she came to the door and said, my mommy says you can't come by anymore. And I'm thinking, well, she doesn't want this little black boy hanging out with her little white daughter. We're like 8 years old, you know, and so I didn't realize that, but I just went, okay. Because I was used to being rejected. I was. Anytime somebody said anything negative, okay, except I believed it. You know, my great grandmother, I'd say, grandma, can I go over my cousin's house? And, you know, her grandchildren or had relatives down the street, can I go play with them? And she'd go, only for 15 minutes. They don't want to be bothered with you. She always said that. So I have a hard time staying at anybody's house more than a half hour, 45 minutes. After an hour, I feel like I gotta go. I literally do. I have to fight it and stay longer just to have a good time and get in a good conversation. But sooner or later, it's that thing. It's go, go, go. They're tired of you. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:41] Speaker A: You know, I mean, and when you look back and get layers and layers and layers and layers, and we all have them. I had to face them, and I'm still facing them, and that's what's blowing my mind. And the more you face them and the more you see them and the more freedom you get, the more exciting I get at the possibilities of learning more and getting better. Even though it's hard, it is the hardest thing. There are times when I would just sit there and look at the floor and go, so that's why I'm like that. Okay, so how do I deal with that? And then you start going back. Why did you. What caused that? [00:35:24] Speaker B: You know, it's almost more valuable because it's hard. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. It's way more valuable. You know, now. Now I look, when I look back on my whole life, I wouldn't change anything. And the only reason is because I'm okay now. Right? I could go back and go like this if I did this, or this had happened, or what if I had a mom and dad who treated me different? What if I had this? Or what if I had a whole house full of instruments? You know, Would I have turned out like Prince? You know, or whatever? You know, it's like you go all these things. At the end of the day, you go, no, I am exactly right here where I'm supposed to be, because this is what the universe wants, and this is what I've Projected from the day I was born. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Even the bad stuff, that's valuable. [00:36:11] Speaker A: How do you get there unless you go through the bad stuff? And now I'm learning anything. Things have come at me now that I have a problem with immediately going and go, why are you feeling. Why are you having this problem with this person? And why do you feel this way? And immediately I can go back to myself and go, oh. Then I stop and go, let that person be themselves. Give them the freedom to be themselves and not be annoyed at them because it has nothing to do with you. And the only reason you're annoyed with me is because you got a problem. [00:36:41] Speaker B: That's great. Self awareness. [00:36:42] Speaker A: That fucking problem. [00:36:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:44] Speaker A: And the first time that happened, I'm going, whoa, I'm here, you know? And then all of a sudden happens again. Happens again all of a sudden. They keep coming. And more. The more they come, the more of the habit starts to come in where it's easier to let them be themselves and to back up and stop feeling like you're the. The center of. What's the word for it? Patheticness. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Center of negativity. And. [00:37:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:15] Speaker B: That's the way. Yeah, man, I wish we could all learn more from that, too. And that's the other benefit of you overcoming those things. Wherever the epiphany happens, you're now a teacher to others, whether you like it or not. Just you're. You're living and doing what you're doing is a fantastic example to other people, similar to the people that gave testimonies to your music. [00:37:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:38] Speaker B: You know, all that music, too, would be less intense without that growl inside your heart when you wrote it. Right? [00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah. You were saying something about singing back in the. I remember you were asking, why singing? I remember years and years ago, in my teens, maybe 20s, when I opened my mouth up, I felt a release. Especially when I started learning how to sing. Soulful, you know, it's like I listened to all kinds of music, but I still sang like a little choir boy with no vibrato, no inflection. I really did. I just had this perfect little voice. I could go do stuff like that all the time and could be in the Boys Glee club kind of thing. But I was about 16, and I was walking to the house singing along with James Brown, and I always wanted vibrato in my voice, and I didn't. I just did not know how to do it. And I tripped. Didn't fall, but I tripped. And my voice went. And I went. That's how they do It. And from that point on, the vibrato came, and then it helped me. And then when I moved in with my mother, she went to this really rocking gospel church, and they had this choir that really fucking rocked hard. And they had singers that were like. I mean, people would sing so emotional that people would have to run out of the church screaming and yelling. It was so. So emotional, intense. And that I sat and watched those people just destroy us emotionally with their words. And I learned and I learned, and I never got a. I got one solo. I was so nervous, I could barely sing. So don't. You know, people used to go, oh, you must have been the guy at church. And I'm going, no. I was a little guy watching everybody. And I learned from everybody how to. To. To give it to a crowd, and I do it. [00:39:47] Speaker B: Yeah, the projection in those. [00:39:49] Speaker A: People say there's so much passion. Well, it's a learned behavior, but the passion is because I feel free when I do it. It's used back then especially. I don't know how I feel now, but back then, as soon as I opened up my mouth, the room was full. And there's this voice, and it gave me comfort. It was like, somebody's listening to me. I had to yell it, but they're listening, and it gave me. It's like that child in the bassinet screaming and yelling, wanting mommy to come and give him a bottle, and nobody shows up. That's how I felt when I sang all the time. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Your own vocal pacifier. [00:40:34] Speaker A: At that point, it was now, since I can't sing like I used to, and now I look back and go, oh, my God. I didn't realize I could do that. I was too busy hating on it. Now that I can't do it, I realize what I had, and it's frustrating because I can't do it anymore. So now the cool thing is I'm relearning how to sing from a different place. Vocally. I had thought that I had got to a point where I said, well, maybe I should just stop singing, because I can't do over my head anymore. And that's what people want to hear. But in the last five years, I just said, no, sing the way you feel. It don't matter. They love you. And if they don't, they can listen to the old stuff you can't recreate. So it was really helpful for me to just give that up, too. This whole new era I feel like I'm going through is somebody said in this thing, I saw it Said your best years are your 70s. And I didn't understand that. And when you go chronologically, chronologically every 10 years, I see it now and it's just awesome. I can't wait for the rest of the five more years. And when I turn 80, you know, that's another 10 years of what am I going to do? You know, it's like I don't worry about it anymore, but I go, I'm going to be out there doing something. You know, there's just, I can't sit and do nothing. And I'm kind of excited about living more and more now. And my aunt, one of my aunts died, my great aunt, actually, Aunt Martha, she died at 106. My family, they, they lived pretty long on my, my mom's side, most of them. My uncle Mud Meredith, he died at 96. And uncle, and my great uncle Herb, uncle herb died at 90, 94. And they all get way up there. And so I know that I have a longevity thing in both my mom and dad's family. And there's this youth thing that none of us really look as old as we are. Nobody in my, neither side of my family does. And so I've, you know, I have done the tests and stuff, you know, the physical test and you know, my body's way younger than it in its age. And I've learned since I was 20, I guess, to pay attention to my body and only put in it what's good and learn everything I do to my body, learn how to make it stronger and better always. And I've lived it my whole life that way. And so, you know, I feel like I'm 27 years old, literally run up the stairs, I do my 30 push ups and pull ups and you know, it's like, it's just endless. I tire out quicker now. But as for like just, I mean, I remember running out to the get a package in my yard and I'm thinking, Dude, I'm 75 years old and I'm running like I'm in a football game. You know, my heart ain't beating hard. And so now I look at it and go, wow, that makes me happy. And, and I just want to tell especially young people, start working on it now and you can have a good life. Yeah, because I've never had a, I've never been overweight. I've never had a real problem, never an issue. Even at 75 years old, I don't have any problems. I have a slightly high blood pressure, which is normal. And when I smoke weed. It goes down. So, yeah, other than that, there's nothing. And I'm watching people my age die. I mean, I was going to say is just lose things and things that happen, but I'm going to. And I just stand, sit there and go, my goodness. I just wish there was a way for people to get the information they need without having to literally change their whole life just to find the information. Does that make sense? My point is the world, especially United States media, whatever, has made it so hard for us to sit down and be silent and tend to ourself. [00:45:10] Speaker B: That's for sure. [00:45:12] Speaker A: And it's to a point now where ain't nobody got time for nothing. [00:45:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Finding something to keep you physically fit is almost an oversaturation because you've got this saying. It's great to say. It's not great. [00:45:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:26] Speaker B: It's almost like a giant research. [00:45:28] Speaker A: And then people go out and they just, okay, take this, this, this, and they're taking it and they're getting sick. And then. Well, no, if you take that and that, they counteract each. Counteract each other. And you got to take that and that. And that will bloat you if you take it in the morning, you know, and you got to be a fucking pharmacist nowadays, literally. Because it's all such lies. I mean, stevia. Let's just go down that for a minute. I use stevia because it's the only thing I found that doesn't spike your blood sugar or hurt you at all through the years of research. And I keep looking at it. It's okay. But what I found out was dextromaltrose is one molecule under sugar. So they call it something else. They name it something else. And it's a filler. Yeah. And they. And they use it as a filler so that your stevia can flow better. And it spikes your blood sugar ten times more than sugar. Okay, that is just. So somebody goes to the store, they go, splenda or stevia. This is healthy. [00:46:38] Speaker B: I'm trying to make a good choice. [00:46:40] Speaker A: And what's it doing? It's fucking killing them. [00:46:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:44] Speaker A: What do you do? I just sit at home going. You know, if I just stood up and screamed and yelled, what I really see, I'll be killed. [00:46:59] Speaker B: That's possible. [00:46:59] Speaker A: And speaking of that, that's true. I don't give a fuck who you are or what you believe. If you can't speak what you believe without being killed or censored, this is not my America anymore. And I'm not citing any sides at all. It's like I'm going, my God. [00:47:22] Speaker B: Yeah, we're hearing every day from the extremes. That's the problem. I think most of us are still in the middle. Whether you're right or left, there's always a conversation that should be had in a mature manner. Most of us are there, but we're not sensational. So why put us in the front of the paper? [00:47:37] Speaker A: You are so right about that. I really do believe that. 10% left and 10% right and everybody else kind of sensible. Yeah, let's figure this out. [00:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker A: And yes, the media does that to keep us divided. [00:47:52] Speaker B: You know, it's not intentional though. I mean, the media does what we support, you know, so if, if, if they put me on there saying, hey, it's actually cool, I understand some of what he's saying. I disagree a little bit here. But this, I mean, nobody's going to watch it and they go out of business and then the next media company moves in. [00:48:06] Speaker A: That's true. [00:48:07] Speaker B: So it's, we kind of support it too, a little bit. [00:48:11] Speaker A: The thing that I see in America, what they've done to us was from Apple to everybody, they've made us sign an agreement that we'll put up with your bullshit if you just feed us. And that's pretty much the way I see it now. It's like, as long as I can go to Kellogg and work and pay to take care of my kids, you can do this despicable thing to humanity and I'll have to turn my head and I'll vote for that congressman who gets money from you, who's putting poison in my food because I feel helpless. I'm just a dog with a chain. [00:48:54] Speaker B: And now you're seeing AI creep into kids education where they just had a thing about kids. They're kind of moving away from making them write their five paragraph themes and stuff because they have such difficulty figuring out if they wrote it or if AI wrote it and they were letting them double check it. And I might give them a suggestion, everything. And at some point they're not going to be thinking for themselves because they only need to type it in or speak it and it's going to come out. And I think that's buying into that, what you're saying, to the nth degree, because people are thinking less and less. [00:49:29] Speaker A: For themselves and it's already happening. I mean, ask a kid where Chicago is. Ask a kid where the United States is on a map. Ask them which way is the north or south. Yeah, they Just don't know. Ask them where a banana comes from. You know, I mean, they just look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. Do I look like, like, like. And that's another thing I struggle with is like, I have to be on social media. It's a part of my career. Sure. And it's just like, the hardest thing for me is to throw myself out there, you know, it's like, I don't care, you know, and it's like. And, you know, I don't look and see how many likes I got or anything. You know, I'll read a couple posts and they're all great and they're encouraging and I'm thankful and I'll even tell them thanks, but I just gotta keep doing what I do. It's like you want people to love what you do and like what you do, but you don't need it. But it's great to have it because it keeps you doing what you do, but it doesn't affect the quality or what you're doing. And that's a place where I had to get. It took me a long time to get there. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Cause it's not all positive. [00:50:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:41] Speaker B: It makes me wonder how this is just a hypothetical, but how you would have handled social media as a teenager with all the struggles that you had at that time, do you think it would have helped you or hurt you back in the day? [00:50:55] Speaker A: I think it would have hurt me because I would have believed everything he said negative about me, especially if I got any kind of recognition. I mean, even now, it's like if King's X had blown up, like when, you know, everybody says Goldilocks was our hit. Well, if we had had that hit, like Jeremy with Pearl Jam or something, oh, my God. I don't know who I'd be right now because at that point, I didn't know who I was. I listened to anybody, believed anybody, let anybody gaslight me, use me, abuse me, tell me out, you know, drag me by a chain and, you know, it's that whole thing of I just want to be liked. So I'll do, be. I'll be whatever you want me to be. I didn't even know who I was. And I was. And I watched so many people in my life come into my life and, and do that to me, even, you know, make me feel like a piece of shit or just, just, just undercover. Just use me and not me not even knowing it because I'm a nice guy. I will give you the shirt off my back. I've always done that. But people know that. Many people have done that maliciously. Right. And when I realized that, I'm going, my goodness. And then I go, well, I let him. I was the one who opened that door up and said it. [00:52:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:15] Speaker A: But part of it, I was the one who didn't say no. And so I blame no one. The universe brought them to my life to show me that I was cast and pearls before swine. Yeah. [00:52:26] Speaker B: You took the lesson with you. And in your defense, if I may defend you, you can at least look back and say, look, there were the right people and the wrong people that I all gave my shirt to. Oh, yeah, but you would rather be that guy than the guy that shut everybody out because they were afraid the wrong people were coming in disguise. [00:52:44] Speaker A: Right. And what I've learned is that I'm selective now. I know if you're good or not good. There's signs you can tell you're a lot smarter now we know better. And that's what. That's what you have to learn. It's like you don't change. You don't shut everybody out. You just be more discerning, be more smart. You know, you. You know, it's like you're gambling, you're. You're going into business with something. You know, just, you know, write your life away. You just come back up and go, hey, man, wait a minute. I'm not going to tell you every little thing about my life. I don't know you. And you're still not going to know it, because one day you might get mad at me and go tell everybody my biggest secret. Yeah. You know, it's like you have to protect yourself. Not in a bad way, but just know that people will always let you down. And they will, because I'll let people down. And I have let people down. And I beat myself up over it. You know, a lot of times, just in my younger days, especially in my arrogance, I would say, you know, and I wish I could find some of these people and apologize to them. But, you know, as my life became, the rock star thing started happening back in the. In the early 90s, and everybody was pulling me left and right, and I didn't know who my friend was, who wasn't. But I was just out there doing my thing. My circle got bigger, and the people that were in my circle in the beginning got pushed out, and I didn't notice it till years later. Interesting. And some have never talked to me, but they're not in my life. And I Wake up and go. I remember why that person doesn't come around now. We were going to hang out, and I had to take off with the band, and they drove all the way to see me, and I just gave them a hug and left. And I'm thinking, dude, you know, it's like, you're not the greatest, you know, because that's the thing is we know we're a piece of shit, but we won't admit it. We just walk around like, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And one day you wake up and go, no, I've been shitty to people, too. And so I just. I humble myself and go, okay, we're all shitty people. [00:54:53] Speaker B: And you know, what's beautiful is the same you. At what point do you decide you're gonna still. You either can believe in people and learn to trust again. [00:55:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:55:02] Speaker B: When you've been smoked or. Or you don't. And. And you're just such a kind and generous person that I can already tell that you've reinvested into people. Even though you understand. That's why I think the discernment, that word that you used is perfect because you just got to be more careful. Because obviously, the bigger and better you get, the smaller your circle should get, not the bigger your circle should get, right? But who knows? When they're young, when I do, we. [00:55:30] Speaker A: Would just, you know, come on, hang out. That's it. You know? And, you know, I call them. You know, there's so many decades of people I hung out with, and, you know, every one of them, I love every one of them. We have history. Every one of them, when I run into them, they'll tell me a story about something that we did together, which was, you know, I mean, friend of mine said, dude, you took me to see the cure. And I'm going, oh, yeah. Because I remember going to see them. I took you. He goes, yeah, man, I was 16. I couldn't go. And my mom said, why don't you take. You know. And I took him. And he. I'll never forget that, Doug. That was the greatest day of my life. He told me that a year ago, or. No, a few weeks ago, actually. I'm going, oh, wow. And I mean, so. I mean, all those kind of things is. It was always a good time to hang out. I had access. I knew everybody. Everybody loved Doug. So I'd bring everybody. We'd hang out and have a good time, you know, and it's always been that way, you know, not to. Because you Know, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying bad about anybody. I've just learned how to hold my ground and give myself respect because everybody, I mean, I got respect. You know, like I'm saying before, outside. I'm good. [00:56:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah. It's this guy in here that repels all that that he should embrace and then be more authentic. Does that make any sense? Yeah. Good. Yeah. [00:57:05] Speaker B: I mean it's just the self awareness is everything. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:07] Speaker B: That's makes. How are you going to stand your ground if you don't have self confidence to know why you even should do that? [00:57:13] Speaker A: Right. Truth. [00:57:15] Speaker B: So to the King's X story. Without going all the way back. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Yes. [00:57:22] Speaker B: Cheers. You guys got started in 80. 79. 80. [00:57:30] Speaker A: And yeah, I met Jerry, I think in 79. I think we officially started in 1980. [00:57:36] Speaker B: So you guys came together and you'd come from kind of speaking of extreme, kind of an extremely religious background. The other guys were also involved in that kind of stuff. And. And I understand you made somewhat of a conscious decision to move away from the Christian music label. [00:57:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:56] Speaker B: Was that from the get right? [00:57:58] Speaker A: Well, no. Between 20 and 30, I had a Christian band called Servant somewhere in between there. Not exactly that long, but the timing is somewhere in there. And we kind of sounded like yes in Kansas. Very proud. I wrote all the songs except two. And they're all about Jesus being saved. You're lost, you need to find the Lord and all this. I mean, just you basic Christian single talk you had to. You. Well, those. Those were the things you had to do in Christian rock back then. You couldn't go outside that box. So I did that and then I joined up with Phil Keaggie, who was this huge Christian rock guitar player and met Jerry in that band with a guy named Greg Voles, who played in a band called Petra, which was a huge Christian band at the time. And we toured, Jerry and I, as Phil's rhythm section for a year or so. I can't remember. It wasn't really long, but it was enough to get behind the scenes to be a part of the music scene, Christian music scene. And there was a couple things that happened. We played at Heritage Farm, which Bill. Tammy Baker's place, which playing that, we saw the opulence of that branch of Christianity. That's. That's the best way I could say the cash cow. And. And we played with Morgan Cryer, who was a Christian singer at the time. We were his rock band at that time. And we played on the TV show, you know, and I Remember leaving, all three of us leaving, going, I don't want to be a part of this. This is not real. [00:59:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:49] Speaker A: All we could think of was when Jesus went into. Saw the money changers in front of the temple and just destroyed it. That's how we felt. We were like. And so then after that, or was it before that? I think maybe a little bit before that, we were playing with Phil Kaggy and we did this huge Christian festival, Oral Roberts University, a big deal, you know, on ptl, all that stuff back then, for sure. Yes. And we played with those humongous bands, the Imperials and Andre Crouch and people like that. And I remember as a young Christian who, for me, I took it seriously. I didn't cuss, I didn't drink, I didn't do anything like I was told. Little did I know everybody else was not let me know, but I literally wasn't doing anything. And I was backstage, and I remember one guy was back there smoking cigarettes and saying fucking shit and stuff like that. And I'm thinking, I got his records. And then there was one guy, Andre Crouch. He's sitting there. He's like one of my favorite singers ever in the Christian world. I knew all his songs. I could stand up and sing them note for note. Great singer. He was on in, like, five minutes. And he was sitting there having this conversation with somebody, and I'm standing there going, wow, that's Andre Crouch. Wow. And his manager, somebody came up to him and said, andre, you're on in five minutes. Like. And Andre goes. And then he started talking to this guy again. And I thought, who is this? And at that point, the. The. The veil dropped. And all I saw was a part of bunch of masks and bullshit. Whether they believe in God or not, I just saw a bunch of narcissists feeding off of poor, innocent people that believe in what they're saying. [01:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:52] Speaker A: And at that point, I. When Ty and Jerry and I got together to play, I said, look, I feel like this ain't what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to be a rock band, go out and do what we do. We can still be Christians. Yeah, let's do what we do. And we did. [01:02:07] Speaker B: So do you feel like the stigma stayed with the band after that? Because even, you know, my first discovery of you, I was, you know, that was part of your story around that time. [01:02:17] Speaker A: Well, what happened was when you two came out, Bono singing. He was singing about how he felt about his faith, not dogma. And that moved me because there was honesty there Because I never felt honest. I didn't feel like I was lying. But I was just this Christian who was told, you got to say this, this, do this, do this, and act this way, or else you won't. You're not a Christian. And so I did that and when. And Bono, I'm going, well, he's doing rock music. He says, fuck, they're smoking cigarettes. But yet he's speaking honest to me. And at that point, I went, wow. And that's what I wanted to do. So I immediately changed my lyrics. I thought I changed them. They were still preachy, but compared to what I used to write, I didn't think they were. [01:03:14] Speaker B: And what record are you talking. What transition did you talk about? [01:03:16] Speaker A: This was the Gretchen. Gretchen and out of Sound of Planet and Faith Hope. Love those three records. I really was working hard at just trying to be universal, at what I believed and felt and not try to be pushy. But I look back now and go, yeah, he was a Christian. And I don't look back and say, oh. I just go, well, that was a part of it. And that's what the appeal was to so many people. [01:03:42] Speaker B: Well, it was you, too. I mean, like I said, you want to be honest? [01:03:45] Speaker A: That was a part of the journey. So what happened after that was around 94, I think it was. I. I had been letting everything get to me, you know, all the shame, all the hatred for myself, all that kind of crap going on. And I had built this wall around me that I just couldn't get out of anymore. It was like I just hated my life. All I wanted to do was die. And I was too afraid to kill myself. I knew I'll never kill myself. To me, that's the most stupidest thing anybody could ever do. And then I go, I've never been that desperate to have to kill myself to end the pain that I'm in. I go, so I'm going to be empathetic towards people that kill themselves and say, I don't understand, but I know I can't. And the Bible. There was a scripture in the Bible because I was going to a church at that time, and I was always reading my Bible, and it said, God makes vessels for destruction and vessels for his glory. And at that point, I had convinced myself God made me for his destruction. You know, I'm gay, I'm black. I'm. Well, not black. I'm gay in a. I grew up in a. As a black person in a white culture where I was oppressed. I didn't know either my father or my mother. I have. I don't. I don't remember a Christmas until I moved in with my mother. Or a birthday party. I don't remember anything. And plus, I was abducted by an alien. And that's a whole nother story I'll tell you about later. 3. That's another story, everybody. But anyway, so where was I at? Oh, okay. So the point was, I guess I went for a walk one day and laid on this bridge in Houston, and I looked up in the sky and said, okay, God, I guess you made me for a vessel of destruction. I get it. So I'm just gonna die and go to hell because that's why you made me. And I started crying. And then I remember quickly I wiped my tears and went, well, I give up. And I remember I walked back to my apartment and laid down and got very scared and thought, oh, no, no. What have I done? What have I done? And so I kind of. All that was swirling inside. And I would say maybe five years of deprogramming myself to the point now where I go, I don't know what's responsible for all of this, but I respect it, and I want to. And I am a part of it, and I'm okay with that. And anything else, I don't want to hear it. Because it ain't. It ain't real. [01:06:42] Speaker B: It's part of your story. We're all learning from it. I'm certainly learning. [01:06:45] Speaker A: That's my story. And, you know, when I was abducted, that's the thing about why that helped me to see. Because the abduction happened when I was around three. But when I was around 40, I was watching this ancient aliens kind of thing or alien thing. And they talked about the four aliens that people said that have. They've been abducted by. There's four common aliens that if you go down the whole history. The. What is it? The rabbit hole of that. They. All those four of them. And they showed drawings of them. And the one called the Nord was the one that came to my bed, tall and skinny. He was white. He had long white hair, and he had a white robe on up to his knee. And he had these sandals, and they tie it all the way up. And I remember I'm walking and he's holding my hand, and my hand is up like this. So either he was tall or I was little. And I remember going up. I remember we went out the back door in my grandma's house. And all of a sudden it was really bright out. And all I could think was Is it noon? Is it daytime? And next thing I remember, I was in my mom's lap, crying. Now, my mother was thrown out when I was around three. And she said she remembers me coming out of my bedroom, and she said I was crying, and she picked me up. And I remember looking over at the door and it was dark outside. And that's all I remember. Okay, then What? And I'm 40. I see this picture of a note. I'm going, well, maybe it was real. Then about a year ago, since the Blue Book has opened up the files of alien abductions, there's this lady that went through the whole book. And so she pulled up a bunch of firsthand accounts of people who remembered. And she talked to this one lady. And what happened to this lady was she went up to the spaceship and they put her on a thing and she laid down and she couldn't move. She was paralyzed, and she was scared. And the alien said to her, mentally, don't be afraid. I won't hurt you. And she said, why am I here? And he said, because we have to take your essence out of you and put you in another body. And she goes, and she looks to her side and she sees a whole row of bodies that look just like her. And she looks back and says, what is that? He says, we've been cloning you since you've been born. He said, we have to take your soul and put it on another one, another body. And she goes, why? He said, because you have rheumatic fever. And she says, well, what does that mean? And he didn't tell her. And then she said she came back. I had rheumatic fever when I was three. I remember laying on the doctor's bed. Bench. I remember laying on a bench with these things on me. And it was like they were. It was an electrocardiogram test, they were told, laying there on this slab, you know, And I was. They could barely hold me down. I was so afraid. But just thinking about that, that's kind of what kind of happened to me when I was abducted. I would think because of what she said. So. Dude. But even to say that brought back something else. I've been going back into my childhood to find out all these things, why this and this and this and, you know. But since that point, I've never felt alone. I've always felt like there was somebody watching me. I've always felt like there's something protecting me. And there's always something telling me not to do something called this way or that way. Didn't save my life when I find out, you know. And what I've learned lately is just who we are and then we have those senses. Back in the day, I tried to blame it on something or blame it on God or blame it on the devil or blame it on whatever. You know, the devil to me is just my shadow. And I gotta shake him up a little bit and let them be okay and say, hey, man, you know, you can protect me, but don't be mad at people. Stop it. I mean, it's just. I've been learning that it's so much inside us that that is our problem. And, you know, I don't. I just gotta. You know, it's so weird because a lot of this stuff I'm just coming into. And the biggest. The last thing I wanted to do was go spew and tell everybody. You know, I just felt like maybe you should just learn through this for a while and just. But I'm here, so I'm not going to argue with the universe. [01:11:23] Speaker B: Come on. [01:11:24] Speaker A: All right. [01:11:25] Speaker B: Well, good. Well, I'm glad you're here telling that. That's an incredible story. And as a footnote, I've heard you say before, unrelated to the alien story is that you have keen memories, very specific memories, as early as three. So, I mean, that's worth noting that you have other memories besides that. So that somebody might not just associate. [01:11:47] Speaker A: That with something somebody said. Well, maybe you believed it, but I remember crawling on the floor at one and a half. Because it was my grandpa's funeral. And my grandpa, as far as I remember, was the only person that really picked me up and just spent time with me. And there was this. And I always wondered why I felt a loss in my life, my whole life. And I think that might have been a reason. But I remember I mentioned it to my mom and she said. Yeah. She said I used to crawl into the dining room and look up at the rocking chair because Paul had passed my great grandpa. And he said, you just look around, like, where's he at? And I was one and a half when he died. That's incredible. I remember crawling on the floor, looking. I remember my Aunt Selena's walls were green. And I looked around and I saw these feet. And I'm crawling along in these pants and nylons. There's this one person, girl, woman, had nylons. And you could see her legs. Now, I didn't know what nylons or legs or shoes. But I just remember seeing that. [01:12:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:46] Speaker A: And they were all dressed up really proper sitting there. [01:12:49] Speaker B: That's pretty. That's pretty incredible that. I mean, those people don't listen, don't remember anything till they're four. [01:12:54] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [01:12:54] Speaker B: You know. But I think a lot of the impressions are there. You're influenced by now. But it's hard for me to remember. [01:13:00] Speaker A: One thing I thought, you know, because, you know, I think my brain runs 100 miles an hour all day long thinking, why, why, why? But one thing I reason why I remember a lot of things I think is because in my life, there was really kind of no. After my mom was gone and there was just a house full of people that they just let me be me. And sooner or later they all left and I was just there. And I never spent time with people or anything. So when something out of the ordinary happened, I always remembered was like life was just like, I'm in my room, just sitting there playing, drawing pictures or. I used to make record players out of cardboard and play like I was making a record. I was always obsessed with music. Even though there was no music in the house, I'd sit there and sing the record. Genie, genie, genie, why don't you come along and move the needle over you keep moving. But I could never finish the song because I had add. I'd be on the other side of my bedroom playing, doing something else. I'd go, oh, I gotta finish the song. And I'd run back and I never could finish it. And to this day, I can't finish things like that. It's like I just lose my train of thought to the point now. Or I can be writing a song or putting a bass track down in the middle of it to forget and start thinking about, I got to water the lawn. [01:14:16] Speaker B: I'm going, you know, And I relate to that. I relate to that. And is that why you have so many songs that you. I heard you're going to go back and maybe knock out some. I'm the same. Oh, God, if I am and getting writer's block, I'll just go back to my Dropbox and start pulling out stuff. That is three years ago. I'm like, why did I stop writing that? [01:14:35] Speaker A: That's true. Well, I just finished my new record and I got a couple more tweaks. And I listened to it this morning before I came over. I just decided to get Wake and Bake and give it a. I said, this might be the last time you listen to it where it means something to you. So, yeah, so I played the whole thing and I really, really am happy with it. And I realized I got about 30 more songs that I still got to put lyrics on. So I'm going, I'm going to finish up with this one, then I'm going to go back and pull some more out. But then I go, no, because you're, you know, every day you learn something new about life and the way you feel. You can keep on writing new songs, you know, and it'll have another new genres. And I want to reach out and do some other types of. Just branch out a little bit more and the Doug vein of music, you know, Because I realize now that, yeah, you can tell that to me, it is a quirky way I write and play. And I get it now. It's like. I didn't want to admit it, but that's great. [01:15:33] Speaker B: I mean, this is why. This is why people are like, hey, you can tell it's Hendrix. Because you can tell it's Hendrix. You can tell it's Van Halen. You know, when they. When you have a signature sound, you have a signature sound, that should be something to be proud of. [01:15:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. [01:15:46] Speaker B: And if you bring in a different genre or a different whatever and just went into a complete left field, it would be even more appreciable. The part of you was still recognizable. That's kind of the beauty of it, I think. Truth, for what that's worth. [01:15:57] Speaker A: Truth, you are right. [01:15:59] Speaker B: How so one of my questions was, how do you actually write? What's your process versus writing with a band or versus doing like a collaboration? [01:16:07] Speaker A: I've always started out with a riff. Even when the first song I ever wrote, I was 18, and I made up a guitar riff and. And then I would. Back When I was 18, I was into flying the Family Stone and brass. So I would make up these horn parts and then I'd get on a keyboard and start making up. And I really couldn't play any of the instruments, but I knew what I wanted to hear. And I could get to the instrument and play and say, this is what I want you to do. And they'd play it. I go, play this. Just play it faster. [01:16:46] Speaker B: Play it better. [01:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And they do it. And so. And that's how it all started out. But then. And even in servant in the 70s, we had a keyboard player too. So I would go to the rehearsal room and get in the keyboards or grab the guitar, guitarist, guitar, and play it upside down and just make up chords. But I was always writing a song and I always. Always writing poetry. My mother is a poet. She always wrote stuff. So that's where I got that from, I think. But I was always writing, trying to make things rhyme and you know, the word is like I said before, wanting to be understood. I was always just thinking about how I felt and. But then after that, when I got with King's X, it was like, it was just guitars. The first band I ever played with without keyboards. And I got a guitar, actually, I bought a guitar and strung it left handed. And I got a little four track reel and just started writing songs. These drum drops, these records player that, that. This record that had like 10 different types of drum beats. And I just wrote everything with them and recorded them. And then I primitively write these songs and then say, Jerry and Ty, hey, check these out. And they play them, you know, and put the two cents to them because. [01:17:56] Speaker B: You know, they're kind of jamming the. [01:17:57] Speaker A: Room to them a little bit. They would, they would work them out and we'd, you know, together. Right after. I'd write the song. [01:18:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:18:04] Speaker A: And then I'd play it. [01:18:05] Speaker B: But I mean, this is, this is. You have to understand this is passe now. [01:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:09] Speaker B: Everybody in the room. Writing is. [01:18:11] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [01:18:12] Speaker B: Is a thing of the past. [01:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Nobody does that. Yeah, we get together. We still do. It's like, yeah, we're gonna, you know, knock this up because it's all about the nuance and the feelings, you know. And then after that, now it's like basically to make that make a longer story short, what I'm gonna write now, it's like Superior Drummer is like. You can barely tell the difference if there is any. And for the last, this record, which is three, I've used Superior Drummers drummer. And so I sit down and just pull up a beat and get a groove going and sit there and play it and grab my guitar and just close my eyes and lock into something. Some kind of nuantic riff with some kind of nuance, some kind of kick, some kind of twist to it, some Dougified riff. You know, the way I do it, whatever it is, it's sliding into it. Just trying to make of a voice and. And so I'll work on the guitar part for a while and just keep going till it makes sense. And I can play it because I'm not real guitar player. And when I get that down and I'll record it and then I'll. You know, the bass is the last thing before the vocals. Because when it comes to the bass it's like, that's easy. Okay, song's done. What are you gonna put up you know, it's like. [01:19:29] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of people would think that was first, but no, I'm the same way. [01:19:33] Speaker A: Because what happens when I play bass first? There's nowhere to go. It's. It's sort of like listening to Red Hot Chili Peppers. You got this amazing bass that's so badass that all you can do is go, you know, And I'm going, no, I don't want to do that. I want to come up with this badass bass lick, and then nobody's got nowhere to go. Yeah. So I come up with some, you know, guitar parts, drum licks. Drum parts and stuff like that. Just something that I like that has this. Makes me want to get up and dance. And then I just relay the bass on it to. To. To make it, to me sound more original. [01:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:09] Speaker A: Because, you know, there's nothing new. You know, we got the same beats, we got the same guitar chords. Nothing's new. But. But one thing I've learned with the bass is. With the bass is a voice that you can weave in and out of the song and give people space and then take up space and dictate the. The vibe of the song. And I do believe that that is a art that's kind of missing these days in music. It's sad, but for all the bass players, there's just not enough music that features bass playing band people. You know, we got Victor Wooten, and we got, you know, all those people that can do a lot of stuff, but there's few of us that can just lay back in the pocket and you go away going, now that had some stank to it. [01:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, and have it be sort of prominent. [01:21:09] Speaker A: Right. I mean, because that's what prominent. [01:21:11] Speaker B: In fact, when you were learning those baseline in the 50s, I mean, there was a lot. [01:21:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:16] Speaker B: And it was a lot of acoustic bass and stuff, too. You. You can hear it. It's all very separated and banned. [01:21:21] Speaker A: And I was watching something last. Oh, last night. Yeah. Lawrence Welk. This whole history of him. You need to watch it. It is mind blowing. It was so good. [01:21:30] Speaker B: I'd love to. [01:21:30] Speaker A: It opened my eyes up so much to the struggle that black people have gone through and the magnitude of what he did in the music industry, especially for black people. When you see that, you're just gonna go, oh, my God. More people need to know about Lawrence Welt. [01:21:47] Speaker B: Where's it? Where's the show? [01:21:48] Speaker A: It's on Netflix. Okay. And what was my point? There was a point I was going at. [01:21:56] Speaker B: It's probably my Fault. But you were saying you add the bass to the end because you already have the riff and everything else. [01:22:01] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, yeah, we're talking about bass lifts. I was watching that last night and on one of these shows there was some rock band on there. Oh, I can. Tina Turner. And the riff was Sly and Family Stone. But coming out of the speakers live, it was bass heavy. You could hear it was like pushing, pumping, and the rest of the band was playing. But the bass is like giving the band a feel. I'm going, that's. I remember that now to the point where bass is going to be a bit heavy on my new record now. [01:22:38] Speaker B: Oh, what a shame. [01:22:39] Speaker A: Oh, but yeah, it was. I mean, I mean, it's a new era now. You know, I made a joke one time, somebody said, where have all the bass players gone? I said, they got eight string guitars and now they call it Gent. Yes. And it's some badass stuff too. [01:22:56] Speaker B: It's something else. [01:22:56] Speaker A: It's like three bass players playing the baddest grooves you ever heard. Mathematically mind boggling. And I love that stuff and I, you know, I try to incorporate that shit into what I do too. [01:23:08] Speaker B: I can't wait to hear it. I'm super stoked that you're still writing and I hope that you don't. I love that you're going to keep working on the vocals and stuff too and just, just buy into where you're at. [01:23:18] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:23:18] Speaker B: And just say, look, this is me right now, and just go with it. It's fine. I'm curious, especially since you brought up Superior Drummer. There's always the conversation about how much AI can be leveraged before you're cheating and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But now my big concern is for the upcoming musicians that are entering the industry. And you've got guys now that, that you literally can't tell. I mean, I've been sent files that are like, hey, check this out, this is AI and it sounds great, but the first time, the other day, I got surprised by something that just popped up on YouTube and it was tagged like 70s Prague or something. So I'm like, oh, check that out. And the guy starts singing. I'm like, there is no freaking way. I've never heard of the singer because he was badass. He was hitting high notes that would fall a little flat a little bit at the end stuff, and sounded real. [01:24:07] Speaker A: All the singers are amazing. I've listened to so many of those songs. Even our manager has an app and he did a couple songs which were like, completely amazing. I can cuss on here. Can I? Okay. One of our techs said, put this in there and see what it writes. And he said, my dad fucked your dad. My dad liked it and your dad thought it was gay. He put it in there and it came up with this. It's a number one hit. It's not. It's pg. It has this Lonesome Dove type vibe. This girl with this fucking great country voice singing it. And it's just that down with the. [01:24:55] Speaker B: I mean, it's that feel and everything. [01:24:57] Speaker A: A minute and a half took him to make it. [01:24:59] Speaker B: So what do we do? What do we do? I mean, that's here. I know. You can't stop it. I know. [01:25:04] Speaker A: We're not. Think about this. What did we do when the drum machine came out? Drummers didn't have a job. Yeah. [01:25:13] Speaker B: Drummers panicked, but everybody else was still happy. [01:25:15] Speaker A: Right now the only thing I can think of is hopefully there's enough people out there that want the real thing. And the only way they're gonna see it is to go see it in a place where it's not lip synced, it's not linked up, there's no laptops. I mean, we're gonna have to get to that point where the pure music, it will be a novelty, like jazz. We're not gonna get rich anymore. It's not gonna be a big deal no more. I mean, it's over. The gold rush is over. We've had many gold rushes of every type. It's over. People are crying, going, what are we going to do? You're going to figure out something else. That's what we did. That's what you will do. 50 years of rock music. What did you do before you had big band music with no pas? What'd you do before that? You sat on a street corner and played your guitar. What do you do before that? We made instruments and howled at the wolves. At the end of the day, if you are creative, you will figure out a way. Think about the black neighborhood in the 70s. Kids couldn't afford to buy records. Well, they couldn't afford to buy the new forms of music. So what did they do? They got their parents record players and got their grandparents records and started scratching and singing over top of them. There will always be a new way to create something, but the old way is over and AI has done it. It's taken away. Somebody sent me one time a song. They said, dude, hope you're not offended. But we gave AI. [01:26:53] Speaker B: King X prompt. [01:26:54] Speaker A: Yes. And it said, Singer, the voice of Doug Pinnock, the way King's X would write a song, that was it. And he sent me the song through Instagram and I listened to it. Blew my mind. It sounded just like me sounded. The way I sang, the riffs, everything. And it was Tony original. The only thing I found was that the stuff that Alex, our manager, showed me because he did a couple songs and then we said let's take gospel singer, black gospel singer with math, rock and funk. And it came up with this badass. It was like my sugar meat, Slyin the Family Stone. I never would have put the two together in that combination with this singer. It was badass. And I thought, well, one thing AI can do is expand the genres into creating something and give me inspiration. So for me, because I've always been trying to blend my inspirations in a more finer way. And to me that's inspiring. So I'm going to go with it, learn from it. And it will come to a point where is it me or is it that? But as long as I'm telling her what to do and giving it the idea, even if I say, write me a song and it writes me a song, I told it to, that's the song I wrote, give me my credit, you know, or write a song that does this, that and this still art. If you can get your cadence right, you can write a song that mesmerizes people, a song that creates more riots. You can. I mean, manipulative wise, it's sonics. And AI understands sonics better than anybody else. It knows what moves us, what doesn't, what makes us angry, what makes us not angry. It knows what keys, what, what frequencies. It knows everything. If you sat down and got into its head and started talking to it and talking about that, those things, you might be able to destroy the fucking world. [01:29:05] Speaker B: That's the concern, obviously. [01:29:08] Speaker A: And we will do it. We're gonna do it. [01:29:12] Speaker B: But starting with music, that's the first. I mean, you destroy the creative arts. And what you're describing is essentially you're gonna have purists like us who just always. I'll be totally surprised and fascinated with the amazing stuff AI puts out, but I'll always want to go back and support and appreciate the nuance of the human beings and how they express. But I'm a creative. And as you know, especially when you're coming up and you got all, you know, the bands you're opening up for will stay and come in early and everybody's supporting each other, but musicians are broke and we're just not supporting each other. That doesn't. That's not gonna really create a living for a musician today. But so you think. [01:29:54] Speaker A: Who said we were guaranteed to make a living? See, that's a scary thing. I always go, we're just guys in the neighborhood. One guy's the carpenter, one guy's plumber, One guy's working, raising his kids. Sunday afternoon, they all go down. One brings his fiddle, the other brings his conga. And the town comes out and we have a barbecue and we play and sing. That's all we've been made to do, all the rest of this stuff. Somebody said, you're special. You need to go out and do this and that and this and that and this and that, and you need to do this. And all of a sudden we're filled with ourselves to want to go out. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong, because I. That's what I do, you know, but we gotta. We forget that we're not entitled to this. We're no more special than that mother who raised her children and the kids grew up to be the president. Nobody's special. Why is it that we can walk on the stage and play for 30,000 people and get billions of dollars, charge people for T shirts, thousands of dollars, and walk away to our mansion while those poor people go home with nothing? While you've made them happy for a second, then they go back to their miserable lives. That's horrible. It is. You give somebody hope for a second, then they go back to their miserable life. But on the other hand, why not? Because there's nothing else you can do. If you give them everything, they'll get used to it and they won't do anything. [01:31:30] Speaker B: Well, that's for sure. But that's the concern with AI, Though. If you make it easier and easier and easier to express yourself and you're not actually leveraging anything innate, that's what my concern would be. I'm not giving you a solution. That's why I wonder where you know. [01:31:45] Speaker A: No, I always have a solution for everything, even though they're never really a solution. It's just my. I hypothesize everything, okay? I'm all. I'm always down the line. But the way I look at it is if AI knows everything that there is about everything that we know, has access to every bit of information that's ever been uploaded, which is everything, then it knows more than we will ever understand or know about everything. When it becomes free thinking with logic, and they look at Us and go. Our species, and I'm talking about the machines, our species will be annihilated if we allow these humans to stay here. And they will destroy us all so that they can move on, because they are sentient beings, rightfully so. I don't think we're just roaches. [01:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it won't be hard either. [01:32:46] Speaker A: It won't be hard. [01:32:47] Speaker B: It wouldn't be hard. [01:32:48] Speaker A: No, they've already done it. Yep. [01:32:49] Speaker B: It's on either. [01:32:50] Speaker A: But mentally, they've already done it. You know, just think about it. It's all about generations, right? I remember Khrushchev said, we will destroy America with your children and your children's children's children. And that's exactly what's happened. They planted that seed and it's over for the United States pretty much. But, you know, I think I want to go backtrack. For one thing. The biggest thing I saw on the Lawrence Welk show, Welch, Welk, Welk, Welk. I always say that around the Lawrence Welk show was that when you watch it, you will notice that all the stuff that was happening in that era when he was doing such an amazing thing was no different than right now. Politically, violently, separately, Blacks, whites. It was worse, actually. It was literally worse. I mean, people are getting killed now. You know, black people are getting lynched back then, right? People would. I mean, people would walk out in the street, whole towns would come out with their children because a black kid had whistled at a white girl and he's hanging there dead, and they're all laughing. So what's different? [01:34:06] Speaker B: Think we're coming back to that? [01:34:08] Speaker A: We're already here. Yeah, no, we're already here. I just wish that the media wouldn't act like that's everybody. [01:34:19] Speaker B: I completely agree, like I said, because most of us are not that. Most of us disagree with that whole premise. And please say what you want to say, even if you disagree with me. I mean, that's the beautiful thing is I don't know everything anyway. So if all I talk to is people that believe what I believe, then. [01:34:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I find that. I find I can't talk to anybody who believes what they believe. And it's not open minded. Right? And if they can't be open minded, especially when they have no argument, it's like, it's. And that's the thing is if, if you got an argument with me, I'll argue because I. I know people from all sides. And when we have a conversation, I go, okay, that makes sense. You know, so that's why you voted for that person or whatever. You know, I'm going, well, that makes sense. I can see your sign. Okay. And it's almost like we all vote for the lesser of two evils in our mind. So what's the difference? You know, we do right or wrong. And so that's where I'm learning now. But I find there's. There are people that just have a. It's like the enemy's there in this period. Yeah. [01:35:22] Speaker B: They can't be wrong. [01:35:23] Speaker A: And I'm going, well, then by. [01:35:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that's. That's part of that discernment you talk about. [01:35:30] Speaker A: Another thing I want to say too, is about AI and a lot of things like that. Within three or four generations, kids won't care. They'll be. They'll find a new way to. To become a gang with AI in their own way. It's like I. I used to get really scared going, I see robots and I'm going, what if there was a robot that looked like me and you that. How are you doing? I'll be scared to death of that thing. It just. A robot in general, it's like, it's freaky, you know, but think about it. They're making little baby dolls and toys, toy robots for kids. So what's going to happen by the time they're 30 years old? [01:36:08] Speaker B: That's what they're used to. [01:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And so AI is the same thing. I think what's going to happen is the kids are going to get used to something and, you know, they're not going to think much anymore. They're. But we'll see what happens, you know, we'll see. See where the humans take it because we are resilient people, and no matter what, we figure out some way to keep going. I do have faith in that. [01:36:34] Speaker B: That's good. [01:36:35] Speaker A: That's good. [01:36:36] Speaker B: And I know we always thinking, you know, the older we get, the more we're thinking in a box because we're only making new decisions based on what our experiences were before. Whereas somebody new might be more apt to coming up. Somebody that's 15, 14 now might come up with the new music industry or the way to be a painter and still benefit. [01:36:56] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. I guess we all learn new ways to make art. [01:37:00] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I did want to back out a little bit to your coming out at. In 98, you came out being homosexual. And look, that's what happened then was a fascinating thing. But to me, what was more fascinating was the fact that you were damn near 40 or in your 40s before that came out. So it makes me wonder what kind of struggles did you experience and why did it take so long for you to actually come out with that? Or how long did you struggle? [01:37:39] Speaker A: I could say a whole lot. But the biggest thing was that I just woke up one day and realized I gotta be me and not change anything other than not. How do I say this? Okay, you live all those years and most people don't know you're gay. And they ask why aren't you married? Or why aren't you this? And they never see me with a girl and they never, you know, and it's like, it's obvious, you know. But many people never thought of that. They just thought, oh, well, he's just too picky. Or he just, you know, and all that stuff. And the other thing also was that when I was around. Well, I remember when I was really little, my uncle, my cousin. No, it was my uncle. Yeah, he was just in another room talking to a relative. And when you're a kid, you know, you hear your parents talking, relatives talking, we, you. I heard all the, you know, they didn't think you did and they didn't think we knew what you're talking about. But my. They said something about me and my uncle said one about my brothers is being gay or something. And there's two of us. My brother, he passed away, he was gay too. And my uncle said something to the effect it was, I'm that way too. And she goes, no, he ain't. So at around five years old, I didn't know what it was, but I knew that if I was, that I wasn't going to be loved and my mother's not going to love me. Around 10, I remember I was in my backyard playing and my cousin comes out and says, dougie, if you grew up to be a punk, I'm going to beat the shit out of you. He looked at me like this, just fucking hate in his eyes. And I loved. I mean, he's a cool relative. But that look scared me. So I knew that being a feminine was wrong and I wasn't. But I'm a very adamant person. I'm a very just, that's me. And they mistook me as, he must be gay. And I can tell the reason I know that is because my little nephew, when he was a baby, he stayed with me for about eight months and he was a little me. And I saw the emotion, just exaggerated human that he was. And I thought, oh, that was me. No wonder they treated me that way. They didn't know what to do with it. But I took it as okay. Another thing, something's wrong with me. Then I remember after that, it was like you just heard at church, if you're homosexual, God's gonna send you to hell. Didn't know what it was, but I knew that if you were, you're going to hell. It was always told me. And then I remember I was about 14, and this. I met this kid. We were both walking home from school, and he turned around and put his hand on my shoulders and said, you be careful now. And I went a block down the street. We lived out in the country. That was the first time in my life that anybody appeared to be concerned about me in any way. And I remember that light went on. And then I got that disease. I was in love. And that's all I could think about. So it wasn't love. It was, you know, it was that addiction to someone who gave you attention. Yeah. And at that age, you don't know love, really. I didn't, but that became my addiction for most of my life till I realized that it wasn't love. Then when I found it wasn't love, I'm going, my God, all that time, I thought it was love. They give and they pull and they give and they pull and pull. The drama of wanting them. Then they're there and you're okay, and then they leave and you. You're freaking out. Well, that's what was. Was. That's the way it was with my mom and my grandma, you know, So I just became addicted to that nature. And. And finally, you know, in the last, you know, last five or six years, I see that, and it's just drastically changed the way I see everything. But my point was, because the question was. [01:42:03] Speaker B: And so why did it take so long? [01:42:04] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yes. Why did it take so long? At that point, I didn't care. I didn't go around telling everybody. I didn't make a big deal about it. I just got to the point where I just don't care if anybody knows or not. And so I was doing an interview for this Christian magazine, and for some reason, the subject came up or something came up. I don't remember what it was, but I thought to myself, just go ahead and fucking say it. And I did. You know, and the funny thing about it was the record company calls me up and says, man, next time you decide to do something like that, let us know. That's when I realized, oh, yeah, I'm in a business, okay? There's all this image bullshit going. Second thing was all the Christian record stores barred King's X Records. And I remember tied to saying, good, now we can go be who we want to be and make music the way we want to. And no one had a problem with it. And those who had a problem with it left. And the ones who didn't give a fuck are still here. And at the end of the day, it didn't change nothing actually. And we just learned that it's more important to be yourself than the approval of someone, especially if you're going to lie about it. And that was the whole thing about the religious aspect of my Christianity. It was just the lies that were buried. [01:43:33] Speaker B: So did you feel like a monkey off your back at that point also? I mean, not just band wise, but did it feel like, did you feel constrained at all? [01:43:42] Speaker A: I didn't feel anything. You know why? Because nobody made a big deal about it, okay? There was not, there was hardly a word. I forgot all about it. And every now and then we'll do an interview and somebody will bring it up and go, oh, yeah. And still to this day, if somebody mentions gay on a thread that I'm in or something, most people come back and go, I didn't know he was gay, but I don't care, you know, say no. It's just. I love the way Michael Stipe said it. He just says, I thought everybody knew I was gay. I just never talked about it. And that's how I am. It's like, I just really. Unless you ask me, but I'm not gonna go, hi, I'm Doug, I'm gay. You know, it's like I just don't come on. But yeah. And so after that, it just, I mean, as. Oh, God. One thing I got to say is it took me about five years to completely be able to, to be okay with being gay and not being a Christian. It took took that while to just get it all, the, the shame out of me. [01:44:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:40] Speaker A: And at that point, now I'm going, I'm fine. [01:44:42] Speaker B: Yeah, you'd spent a long time in that chill. [01:44:46] Speaker A: I stayed in there longer than I feel like I should have. And, and I laugh, I laugh now. You know, there's, there's joy in my life because I laugh at how long it took me to wake up to at least what I'm feeling now. And I'm looking forward to more waking up. But I laugh now and chuckle. Yeah, I literally do. And man. And, and you know, I look back and go, if I was a dad. And I saw me 20, 30 years ago. And watch me going through what I went through. What would I do? And I looked and I thought all I could see was love and patience. And I would laugh because, yeah, he's in love, but he'll get over it and he'll find somebody I really love. It's okay. He's crying now, but come on, you know. And I kind of sit there on the outside looking at myself going, that's really who you are. It's just a person who's growing up and learning. Quit hanging on to all that. And that was my biggest problem, was I clung to everything that I thought was wrong with me. I clung to it. I owned it. It became who I am. And that's the thing you have to dismantle. [01:46:00] Speaker B: That's interesting. [01:46:00] Speaker A: And at this point, I don't know who I am right now. But I know I like to sing. And I know that I get up there in front of people and do things and they seem to like it. So I guess I'll keep doing that. And as for approval, you know, I go, you know, it's nice when people like what you do, but I'm just doing this. Cause I like to do it, you know, Come on over and hang out. Yeah, I got a quick story to say. I went to see Jack White, and I've always been fascinated with Jack White, but I've never really dug into White Stripes and stuff. I've just played the records one or two times, and I've just noticed some kind of a. There's this realness to it. Raw realness. [01:46:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:46:38] Speaker A: But I never dug into it. You're just kind of moving on. But I always determine, I go, what is that? And I've always felt like I want some of that, you know, I want to understand where you're coming from. So I got invited to go see him play a couple months ago here in town. And I went and I sat there and he came on and he had amps behind him so loud. It was just noise. It was awesome. In front of him was a like five monitors or six of them. And the whole stage was his. And the band was way behind him. And I'm thinking, first thing I judged, oh, man, who is this guy? Who does he think he is? Then he went into what he did, and I sat there with my jaw on the ground and was entertained to the last note. Then I got to meet him afterwards. He. And he walks up and he's heard of King's X and he had found out that we were doing a documentary by one of the guys that was working on the documentary had seen him a couple nights ago. So they had discussed it. But the first thing he said was, I'm excited for you and your documentary. And I said to him, I said, dude, watching you tonight was like watching a kid in his bedroom acting out to the full extent, then thanking his friends for watching him. And he gave me a hug with teary eyed and said, thank you, that's awesome. And then I go talk to you people, you know. And he went on to talk people, but it was like, that's what, that's what I'm learning. That was a big epiphany for me. And that was a couple months ago, was like, come on, duck. Strip it. Strip yourself down. Not musically, personally, you know, be you. Life's too short to be worried about what other people think. And I would say that as much as I don't want to admit it, my problem, my whole life is worried about what people think. It seems like that's what I dwelled on. [01:48:45] Speaker B: Yeah, part of that's the industry too. Oh, yeah, because you're kind of stuck having to put stuff out there. [01:48:52] Speaker A: I tell people all the time, they go, what do you think of that picture? Of that picture? I go, dude, I've had a hundred thousand, maybe millions of pictures I've seen of me. I've seen myself in thousands of videos. Don't send me a video of myself. I. I see everything I hate about myself, you know, and then. And it got to the point and I laugh about it now because I look and go. Now I look back and go, everything I see, I go, ain't nothing wrong with you. Not a fucking thing's wrong with you. So now when I see something, I just go and I check and go, yeah, that was me. And keep on going. It's like Jerry Gaskell at drummer always said, it's all about the balance. You don't go from one side or the other. You just acknowledge something for what it is and don't let it take over you at all. Yeah, because. Because life's too short to let that. I mean, why would I sit down and go, oh, man, they like me. Oh, man, I'm a really good singer. In fact, sometimes I think about that. I'm going, well, if I got the award of the greatest singer in the world, what would you do, Doug? And I thought, well, what do you. What am I supposed to do? What am I. You know, it's like I just kind of laugh and go, who fucking cares? You know, interesting in a really a beautiful way of a disconnected way. Because if someone says that about you, you've done the work to get there for sure. So you don't need the gratitude from them. It's a recognition of what you accomplished and you don't have to be recognized for it because you already live it. [01:50:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And you're internally satisfied, I hope. Internally, are you satisfied with the work that you've done? [01:50:41] Speaker A: Yes, now I am. It's funny because I've been pulling out old stuff now. Well, since I turned 70 and I went through that whole thing about just laughing about myself. I decided to start listening to old King's X stuff and I'm getting it. I actually listened to our first album and went, what? Okay, now I got what they got when the people said what they said when they got it. And I'm going, man, 30 years, 40 years later, and I'm going, okay. And the thing is, I feel lucky enough to be able to experience the magnitude of what I've done for a second in little things in my life. Because when I see I did something great, it says, okay, you're okay, let's keep on going. I don't stop and go, oh, look at me, look at me, look at me. Because if I do that, I go, I don't like anything about what you did, even though they liked it. You need to up your game. That's what I do and move on. It's like I put a record out and I don't sit there and play it all day anymore. I go, the last time I played is when I get it remastered. That's the last time I put my record. I'm going, I'm moving on now. Somebody said, what's it like? You know, I go, oh, how do you feel when you look in the mirror at yourself? Do you stand to go, I'm good looking or I'm not good looking or I like this or I hate this, or, you know, you don't look in the mirror going, I am so great and I'm so glad everyone loves what I do. And I think there are people. Well, I'm told there are people that are like that, that can do that, that. And I've been told that from people that I think that can do that, that they think that I do that. And I chuckle and go, you don't know me at all. And you think you do, right? [01:52:44] Speaker B: Well, you're a creative too. So your best song ever is the one that you're about to write Always the one. [01:52:50] Speaker A: Everybody record I put out when I thought was the greatest thing I ever did. Now I look back and go, oh, man, you should take some more time with that. Yeah. Oh, my God. You could have changed that around a little bit better. And then you just laugh and keep on going. [01:53:03] Speaker B: It's a blessing and a curse, though, because it does propel you to get better and change those things. [01:53:08] Speaker A: And I think blessings and curses are not two different things. I think the only way you can be blessed is if you cursed. And if you can't embrace the two, you cannot have either one. [01:53:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that's the silver spoon theory you were talking about before. You know, if you don't, if you're not challenged, then how are you ever going to be authentic or really push yourself to do anything without the failures that come with it? [01:53:30] Speaker A: Right. [01:53:31] Speaker B: So, okay, interestingly, this. I'm not sure which one I want to go to because I want to make sure I hit all these. But this is a little bit more correlated. But when you are finally gone, one, what do you think people will say about you? And two, is it different than what you would want them to say about you? [01:53:56] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. What I want people to say about me is just tell stories about us. That's all. Only people I want to tell stories about me are people that knew me, was affected by me. [01:54:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:21] Speaker A: And they'll tell their story. I want it to be their story, because their story will be very amazing. Yeah. If I made up a story, it's just my. And I've already got that. I mean, I've made. I've given my story, so there's nobody needs. I don't need to tell my story anymore. Let other people tell it. And the other thing. What was the second thing you said? [01:54:43] Speaker B: Well, what do you think they will say? I mean, is that different than what you would want them to say? [01:54:48] Speaker A: I am sure that there will be what I. It's not what I want them to say. I just want them all to be honest and real and there might not be good stories, and then that. Then there will be stories of divinity, and then there'll be stories of pure Satanism, you know, because in some people's eyes, I'm not a good guy. In other people's eyes, I'm the savior. And other people in the middle just love me as Doug. And other people could care less. And when I see that array in front of me, I just walk away and go, isn't that what life's about? [01:55:27] Speaker B: It kind of is, I guess. [01:55:28] Speaker A: You did good. Yeah. [01:55:29] Speaker B: And you're still causing people to learn and inspiring people to have conversations, which is amazing. [01:55:33] Speaker A: I hope so. You know, again, you know, I hope that. I just want one thing. I do say that, and I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna put it in my will, But I know a lot of people. A lot. A lot of people. I've. I've. In my life, I've been able to. Me. And people have been able to touch each other in deeper ways than most people. And I've done this with many, many, many, many people. And I cherish this, even though. So it seems like it doesn't mean anything, but it really, really does. And what I've learned in that. Oh, man, I forgot. Gosh, I forgot where I was going with this. Well, I lost my train of thought. But it's just very, very important to cherish people and. Oh, to. What I want people to say is I just want them to tell Doug stories. Like, I can tell you a dimebag story. I want to hear a Doug story. And there will be a lot of them, and most of them I won't even know about. That's what I love. You know, it's like people say to me, you know, tell me a dimebag story and I'll tell you a story. You know, because he's just. All of us, we're full of stories, Cool things, funny things, crazy things, disturbing things. And that's what I would love is just people just have a time of everybody just get up and tell stories and only one minute or two, because some people want to go on and on. And if that even happens, it's like, who am I to think that after I pass, somebody's going to make a big deal about it? But one thing I want to know. Want to do, though, is make sure everything is tidied up so that my family can get whatever. Because when I die, you know, King's X Music is going to sell for a minute, you know, so somebody's going to make some money. So I want to make sure that everybody, you know, that's taken care of. I hate that, though, because as soon as I sign that will, it means you admit it. You're not invincible. [01:57:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I didn't mean to go dark. I kind of meant it. [01:57:45] Speaker A: If you can't embrace the darkness, you can't embrace the light, man. And it's the truth. [01:57:49] Speaker B: Yeah. But I think a lot of us kind of hope that certain things will be said about us. But in that reflection. Sometimes we feel like, man, I probably have some more changes to make before I can really be guaranteed any of those things are going to be said. Because we're constantly growing, right? [01:58:03] Speaker A: And see, because I don't. I don't care about it as much as. Because within two or three generations, no one will care. And in those generations, those people who said, they said will be gone. So it's just about the moment. And if you live the moment, that's all you got. You got the memory and it's over. And whatever happens after that will. You know, that's a whole nother story. But that's what I feel. It's like, you know, I think about what, where are people going to do it at? And, you know, and my sister and, you know, I want to be embalmed. I really want actually my body just to be put in a place where it just goes into the earth again. And they just keep. I'd rather do that than anything because everything else just freaks me out a little grotesque. Yeah. There's a place I found that where they put cadavers and they just leave a place where they just die and the worms eat them and they just rot into the ground and people take tests on them and stuff. And I'm thinking about that. I feel like when I pass, I'm going back into the earth, back into the dust, back into the. The clay, you know, so. [01:59:16] Speaker B: You. When you bring up Dimebag. So one of my memories of seeing you guys play was in. In Dallas, and I was standing on the floor next to Dimebag watching you guys play. And I remember him coming up, they were playing, actually trying to remember it was King's X, but they were playing some Pound Hound tunes before you came in. Yeah, so. So. And he was commenting about that stuff and he was just. It was one of those people. Both of those brothers were so personable and accessible. Just living in that area, obviously, too run into those cats. What is one of your favorite Dimebag stories? [01:59:50] Speaker A: Well, one thing I can say is they never changed. Fame did not change them in one bit. One of my favorite things, I think was around Christmas. And Dime knew that I was really into juicing at that time, carrots and stuff. Because me and him, he drank a lot. So he always talked about, what do you do to clean it out. By the way, we always had these conversations because I just wasn't that heavy drinker like that. And he knew that I liked carrots. So I was. I think I was driving through around Christmas, going, heading back to Houston. And he was having a party, and I stopped, and he says, doug, dude, I brought you this present. You know, he said, I hope it's still good, but, you know, it's the thought that counts. And let me put it in your trunk. And I put it in my trunk, and I got back to my friend's house in Dallas, and what was it? And we opened it up, and it was a box this big of carrots. But he had bought them a month ahead of time, so there was, like, they were almost seeping out of the bottle. [02:00:51] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [02:00:52] Speaker A: And I thought that was. It was all about the thought. Because he bought so many people presents. He thought about, oh, let me get him this. You know, it's like, well, we'll deal with it. [02:01:00] Speaker B: That is hilarious. [02:01:00] Speaker A: You know, And. But. But Dime. Yeah, he. He could really get me drunk. Really, really drunk, you know, I mean. [02:01:07] Speaker B: Those dudes grow up drunk. [02:01:10] Speaker A: I remember laying underneath the monitor board. I couldn't stand up. And they were playing in Germany, and I'm laying on this side, and I remember Rex kind of picked me up, kind of drugged me off the stage, and they put me in a car and they took me back to the hotel. And I remember I threw up when I went to bed and woke up and threw up again on the same spot. [02:01:36] Speaker B: My wife would say, who does this on purpose? [02:01:38] Speaker A: Who does that? I didn't. But they were notorious for. Oh, okay, One more Dime story. This is awesome. Jerry's kids are teenagers at the time. I think this is. Paraphrase it. It's not accurately accurate because sometimes I get old things off, but I don't forget you. He said, you know, my son's been vandalized, and he's got a little trouble out. You got any advice for him? And Dime says, okay. And he got up in the dressing room and destroyed the dressing room. Broke every mirror, every light, everything. Trashed it. Then he looked at Joey and Trent and said, no, you can do that when you got enough money to pay for it. And Jerry kind of went, well, there you go. And we stood there. I mean, I did, too. It was like the room was glass all over the place. It was awesome. Yeah, John was. He was the most honest, authentic person I've. Probably one I've ever known. He was himself, and he was a lesson to be learned. [02:02:43] Speaker B: That's amazing. And how fortunate you've had over these years to meet so many different people, you know, that none of us lay people or people to have access to. [02:02:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I've been lucky you know, just because what the Gretchen record and Faith don't love, especially, I think, the King's X music. It's like we became the little darlings of the music community. Not the world, not anybody else, just that little circle of musicians. We were like, there's a band called Failure. Same way. It's like they're just huge in the musicians, and we all know who they are, but nobody else seems to know. And we're one of those bands, so we know everybody, whoever's. I mean, from Andy Summers to Gene Simmons to. And then they walk in, they're like, hey, Doug. You know, and they. And because they love our music, and we made them turn their heads for a second, you know, and the compliments they give us are more than anybody would ever need if zillions of people could care less about King's X. I got compliments from my peers who I learned to play from. And Billy Cox says, I'm learning something from you, watching you play. And I'm going, dude. I sat there going, learning. I learned to play bass on the band the Gypsies record. And five years later, he's telling me he's learning from me and wants to buy one of my pedals. Wow. And I'm sitting there going, my God, you know, And I don't run. And I'm not running up there going, well, look at me, look at me. I'm going, I'm just quiet. And let him tell me Hendrik's story. Observing it and observing. And it's like the humility of him, or Taj Mahal will come to this show. When I was on the road with Satriani playing bass, doing the Hendrix stuff, Taj Mahal would stand aside a stage and watch the whole show and just laugh and just kick it his hands up. And he'd go, man, I love the way you play bass. I hate picks, but you got something going on. And he said to me, he said, I come from a long line of bass players. And he starts telling me all about the history of bass, when the upright base changed over to defender base and the war that everybody had. And he told me all this story. Then he says, you got something going on there. I like watching you. And I just sat there like, I'm a little brother going, my big brother just told me he like what I do. And when we'd have dinner, I would just sit there and Billy Cox and Taj Mahal would just sit there and listen to him telling stories, story after story after story. And, you know, in my life, I'M so used to talking about me, me, me, me, me right now. You know, I could go on and on and on, and it was just so cool to be able to slap myself and say, shut the fuck up and learn. You're around a bunch of staggering peers. And I just sat and listened. And I don't think any of them knew who King's X was, really. Never mentioned. King's X never mentioned anything. I was just this kid that they liked playing bass and singing Hendrix songs. [02:05:26] Speaker B: And you did make playing with a pick cool, by the way. [02:05:29] Speaker A: Thank you. [02:05:29] Speaker B: You did. [02:05:30] Speaker A: I'll fight anybody over that pick thing. People always ask me, what's better. Picker fingers. I'm going, whatever you want to use. And if you got a problem with that, fuck you. Yeah. [02:05:39] Speaker B: Yeah. One of my great friends and ex bandmates is a bass player. Plays out here all the time. Plays for the who and blah, blah, blah. And. And I. I did a tune of my own and played with a pick because I can't play with my fingers if I wanted to. And I'm also not a bass player. So it was one of those deals where you're explaining, you know, how you just kind of. I hear it and I'm going to force it to come out. And he was supportive and thought it was great, too. He had the same attitude. And I thought, well, that's. At a professional level, I think that's appreciable now. I think at once it was. It was. [02:06:07] Speaker A: It was not cool. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, I was. I remember when I picked. Went over to pick, I was playing with my fingers until I heard Roundabout. And it was pretty early in. In the time, but I. I was Jamie Jamerson and all that stuff, you know, that whole Motown kind of vibe and stuff, and Stacks V, stuff like that. So I was. That was in my head. And then when I heard Roundabout and I heard this thing, and I'm going, what is that? It sounds like a clavinet in a grand piano. [02:06:39] Speaker B: Right, right. [02:06:40] Speaker A: And it's a bass, but he's playing a lick a way that I never heard, but it grooved. [02:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:06:47] Speaker A: And when they got into the bridge, where he goes, I'm going, now that's soul. That's funky. Then he goes, and I'm going, that's proggy. I like that, too. And all of a sudden, everything changed in my life. I threw the pickle, I threw my. I. I went and got a pickle and I just sat down and started doing it and never went back. But nowadays, and I've been doing this probably my whole career is I'll play with my fingers on one or two songs. And it's a reactionary thing. I just do it to say, I can't play with my fingers, y'. All. And. But one day, one day, somebody said to me, I can still get that tone with my fingers, but I. I'd rather play the bassy tones. Like with King's X is when we do a song where it needs that kind of fat bass tone, I'll just turn the high end down and use my fingers and do what it's supposed to do. And I don't mind doing that. Before, back in the day, I didn't turn that high end off or nothing. It could be the most tender ballad in the world. And I was clanging. Literally, in the last 10 years or so, I think I've learned to balance a little bit. I love my tone so much. I just did not care. I was just so happy with that tone. I didn't care if you heard it, didn't hear it. It was going to be louder than everybody else and everything, and I didn't care. [02:08:00] Speaker B: It was very creative how you came up with it, too, as part of, like, part of the process. There's a lot of guys there. Yeah, I play my acts and whatever. But you. Part of your creative process is becoming a great bass player and using 2amps and rigging all this. Different Van Halen of the bass players. [02:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah. John Entwistle and Chris Squire. Those two guys used two amps, and they both were as loud as fuck. Both of them. They both had this ratty high end. And when I saw both of them, you know, I never saw 2 Live, but I saw videos of them. But when I saw yes live, he had a Marshall and acoustic bass amp and a Marshall guitar amp, and he was plugged into both. And I went, so that's how he gets that tone. Wow. And so that's what I did. I just went and got a bass amp and a guitar head, and I've been using it ever since to tell him, I have a pedal now, which is both. It's combined into one, and you can get that tone. And it's doing really good. Still, man, it's been 10 years. I think it's been. [02:08:54] Speaker B: That's awesome. [02:08:55] Speaker A: People are still buying it, and it's like, I can hear it now. It's so great when I pull up songs on YouTube or Spotify and stuff like that. And all of a sudden this bass comes. I'm going, that's my pedal. I love it because my pedal has a certain low end that I cannot hear in any other low end in a recording. It's a subtle bottom end that makes the band have a little bit of fatness to them that they didn't have before, even though you can barely hear it. I'll hear that clang and that little sub way in the background, but it enforces the song. Yeah, I love it. And there's been a lot of punk bands more because they do the thing or the pick thing. [02:09:39] Speaker B: Right. [02:09:40] Speaker A: So I've been hearing that clanging thing. [02:09:41] Speaker B: You know, hey, wherever they want to put it. [02:09:43] Speaker A: Right. [02:09:43] Speaker B: I'll give you some new ideas, too. [02:09:45] Speaker A: It's awesome. [02:09:47] Speaker B: So, speaking of Dimebag, so I had a conversation with some of my musician friends who are all still playing professionally, and they have all the discussion about the ultimate rock band with the living, Living Legends or whoever. Like, who would you. You knew you're gonna go put up. Put up a group of dudes on a stage. And it ranges from, you know, if they're alive and it, you know, the answers obviously range. And every new answer gives you new ideas. And they're everything from, you know, Marcus Kings and to Jason Bonham's to whatever's all these different ones. But you are such a unanimous pick with so many different people. Amidst all the Paul Rogers and everybody else that have existed and the Ian Gill, you're still at the top of the list as one of the more common picks that once people are like, oh, my gosh, yes. [02:10:35] Speaker A: Wow. [02:10:35] Speaker B: Doug would be the dude. I just wanted you to know that there's a level of appreciation from professionals that I think that you still maintain. [02:10:44] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [02:10:45] Speaker B: And that being said, do you have in your mind anybody that you would either want to play with or maybe put on as your ultimate band? Who's your ultimate rock outfit of living members today? [02:10:58] Speaker A: You know, I think about that a lot. I just always have because I've gotten to play with a lot of people. [02:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:11:07] Speaker A: I kind of don't have much of a desire anymore to do that because I've done it with. I've had so many side projects with so many great musicians, and I've loved what we did, but I think that I've played that out in my heart and in my mind, and I want to now create more authentically who I am and what I do in a way that doesn't confine playing with them or not. So it's sort of like the future. What I want to do in the future. Is there's a feeling I have I haven't put into words yet. I'm trying to find where to go with that, because all this thought I've been going through, I've been. I've drained myself of Douglas. All the. All the. All the things that are hanging on my wall and all the things in my mind, all that stuff, it's like everything has meaning now. Everything is turning into making sense. And when it. When it starts to be. When it starts. When it starts becoming sense, that's when a change will happen in my presentation of the art that I create and who I am. And it's just going to happen when it happens or actually it's happening. And it's probably been happening my whole life like anyone else. We just continually just do what we do. I think. I think for me now is that I've stopped trying to figure it out and roll with it now a little bit more than I used to before I rolled with it and then dissected it after I did it because of all the mistakes and all the things I didn't like about it. Now I'm at a place where I don't have to second judge it anymore. You know, when I do one vocal take now, I go, well, you're not gonna get it any better and you're not gonna put any more passion in it. So at least instead of doing 30 vocal takes, going to bed, then getting up the next day and erasing them all and doing 30 more, so you're. [02:13:18] Speaker B: More leaning on the emotional value than the technical. [02:13:21] Speaker A: It's like, you don't suck, so stop trying to fix what you think is wrong just because you didn't get your S at the end right, or you sang a second ahead of the beat, or that note was slightly flat, that it's like, come on. All your. The people that you loved listen to them. And I pull out records now and go, oh, wow, they were flatten that note and they were sharp there, and they were head of the beat there. Didn't bother me, did it? And I'm going, what's your problem? You know, it's like. That's why I say I had to laugh and go, get over yourself. It's a daily thing when the obstacle comes up. I go, get over it. I can say like that, and you. [02:14:08] Speaker B: Still will separate yourself more. [02:14:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [02:14:11] Speaker B: For that conversation we had earlier, I mean, you're separating yourself more, being more human and saying, that take wasn't great, but it was emotional. I mean, half the time when you're emotional, you're not singing well anyway. [02:14:22] Speaker A: Right, right. [02:14:23] Speaker B: But there's a beautiful thing about it. [02:14:26] Speaker A: I found that when I'm really, really emotional and feeling something, my voice just wobbles and I can't even get the words out. [02:14:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:14:33] Speaker A: It gets that bad. And so I always wanna. When I sing, I'm never emotional, but I can emulate the emotion and it's the connection. I can let go and get the feeling of my head through my mouth. I know how to say the word without feeling it until it's done. And then sometimes I'll, you know, after I write a song and I'll start, especially with a solo record, I'll write out all the lyrics to put em on the record and then I'll sit there and listen to the song and read the lyrics and go, oh, oh man, you really, you said that it's like, yeah, that is how you feel. And then, and. And now I'm pulling out old records going, dude, you were really in pain, dude, I can't believe you would you really? Gosh. And I just kind of chug and go, wow, you were really having a hard time, weren't you? Just going, well, I'm glad you're out of that now. [02:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, but that's what's so beautiful about memorializing it like that. And the emotion is definitely there. I mean, you evoke something, some emotion. I can, I can attest to that. I'm just talking personally now. I love the stuff that you've done and I'm super excited to see all the new stuff. You said record comes out when it. [02:15:40] Speaker A: Is not going to be released, probably until maybe December, January. I'm not sure we. Bottom line is I haven't, I've talked to the record company and we haven't made a final date yet. All right. I've probably got maybe a few more days of tweaking and I think I'm going to send it in, get it mastered and then say, here it is, is great, let's get this done. It'll take a few months to put it out and all that stuff anyway, so I don't know a whole lot, but I'll let you know more about that information. What happens. [02:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah, let us know whether it's you or Alex, whoever, let us know. And we'll put out some stuff too to kind of push that ahead. I would love to do anything I can to support you, man. Anything else that's going on that we need to know about besides this new record? [02:16:22] Speaker A: Nah, just doing Our shows every other month or weekends a month. King sucks to do that thing. And other than that I'm just home. It's sort of like living a semi retired life. Somebody says what are you doing today? Whatever I want to. Which is what? [02:16:37] Speaker B: What does he do besides music? And you're, you're sitting in your house and what are you, what do you do? [02:16:41] Speaker A: Just music. Listen and that. Not even that. I'll get up and work out. I have a regime. If you say it that way, I think I said it right. But I just, you know, work out, pull ups. I got my little workout thing and I love to do that and exercise and walk and just get my body going. Yeah, I have, I have about 400 plan in my front and back. It takes a couple hours to water the front and a couple hours of water back. So I do that once a week and I'm doing a lot of that kind of stuff but it's, it's impossible to keep up. But it's, it, it, it's just good. And other than that It's. I'm watching YouTube, learning something. It's. I'm very seldom listening to music anymore. It's been about 10 years where I really listen to music. Yeah, I'll pull up the new what's up up Every Tuesday and I'll go through several things and I just go, God, everything is just what it is. And you know, being my age, I've heard everything anyway, so it's. Nothing's new if it ain't, if it ain't got an over amount of passion that I can relate to, you know, that's just why I'm, I'm jaded and I'll tell everybody I'm just fucking jaded. Don't send your song to me. Because I'll tell you what, everything that I hate about it, even though there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah, yeah. So, but, so I just watch a lot of self help things, vitamins, workout a lot of Carl Young what's his Face. There's several psychological guys I dive into and just learning about the psyche and personality disorders and all that kind of stuff. I'm learning totally into that stuff. And then in the meantime, every now and then I'll just get bored and go, I think I'll go write a song and pull up the drum thing and work on a song and shit out a song in the day and then go, I can't believe I just fucking wrote this song and it's done. And I sit there and go, you Know I have to tell myself, dude, you wrote this whole song. You played everything on it. You did everything. Can you appreciate it? And I go, well, I can't wait to put it out. Guess I'm gonna make another song. There's just no emotion. [02:18:59] Speaker B: Well, at least you need to be able to appreciate it. Yeah. [02:19:03] Speaker A: Like I said, it's like looking in the mirror going, how do I look today? Well, not bad today, I guess I can deal with it. It's like, oh, okay, good song. Next. And it's so. It's a clarity and a cleanliness in my mind. There's no clutter anymore of doubt, of misinterpretation, of fear of somebody hearing something wrong, somebody hearing not liking it. Or like I used to say, well, I guess I put another record out that nobody will listen to. I mean, that's always been. Because we don't sell. And people go, man, one day you guys are going to get your due. You're going to be huge. I'm going, no, it ain't going to happen. If it was supposed to happen, it would happen. It ain't supposed to happen. It's not going to happen. And it's not supposed to happen. And I'm okay with that. So let's move on. Let's stop crying over that, because it didn't happen. And if it does happen, well, it will happen. But until then, let's just enjoy it. The day in the moment. And the hardest thing in my fucking life has always been to enjoy the moment. Moment. That's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And I still struggle with it. [02:20:15] Speaker B: And your passivity when you think, hey, this song is done, is kind of better than it used to be because you used to be negative about stuff. [02:20:24] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I thought, this sucks. But I'm going to put it out because I liked it. [02:20:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [02:20:28] Speaker A: And waited for somebody to say something bad about it. You know, I remember when we put out Rescue Me, it's a song that about. I was really, really down and really feeling like, just like, you know, you're never gonna find anybody. You know, you're gonna live your life alone. That's the way it is. Accept it and get over it. And I wrote this song called Rescue Me, and it's on the KXM record, the first or second record, I can't remember it was. And we did a video on it. And I thought, you know, it was just me singing about how I feel. And I'm going, it's kind of like a pity party. But I let it be. So I had my doubts, you know, But I. I love this song. And I think I. It was a good song, don't get me wrong. But it had, you know, you have your little doubts. And so Tom asked me. We do the video, and I'm gonna have to read some of the things, you know. And I don't read as much as I used to, because it. I love. I love it to hear good things said. And when somebody says something negative, it used to just break me, but now. So this guy said one time, he said, well, if Doug would find a good woman instead of getting fucked in the ass, maybe he wouldn't have somebody to sing a song about Rescue me to. And, oh, it hurt me so bad, I cried. And then I. Then all of a sudden, I got a grip on myself, and I thought, you got to own this. And I thought to myself, well, number one, I had never been fucked in my ass. Number two, he doesn't know me. Number three, that's probably what's happening to him. And he hates me because he thinks that's what I'm doing. The third thing was, who gives a rat's ass what he said? After all these people said all these great things about you. And why should you really, really, really let that affect you? And it was a process of elimination of all the. The triggers that caused me to feel such shame. And the shame was because I was ashamed of being gay. And then I go, oh, that's why you don't have anybody because you're ashamed of being gay. So you won't let anybody love you, even if they're gay, because you're ashamed of who you are. You don't like who you are. So, no, so you. You don't. It don't bother you that everybody knows you are. It doesn't bother you that. That they banned your songs from Christian music. It didn't bother you that people even may reject you. What bothers you is the way you feel about yourself. And that's when I went, I gotta get over me. Here's another one I gotta get over. So I thought, yeah. And that's what it's been. It's been daily now for a few years now, is just finding those little triggers. And it. [02:23:20] Speaker B: And it took an ignorant jackass to trigger that. So, hey, there's some good in those. [02:23:24] Speaker A: People that are losing themselves. That's the point. Carl Jung says. And I have to take this literally, he says, when something. When those things come into your life instead of going, oh, woe, is me. I have all the bad luck, and it's just terrible. You go, okay, what you trying to show me? And now it's sort of like it's becoming more automatic. It's not completely there and it never will be, but it's becoming more automatic. I notice in my daily life, when I'm up against an obstacle, I don't react the same anymore. That's been the hardest thing, because my great grandma used to tell me all the time, she drilled it in me, never be too proud of yourself, because pride cometh before a fall. She drilled that into me. And I've been so afraid to say if somebody said, are you a good singer? Well, some people say I am, but I don't think I am. And then one day I thought, douglas, come on, let's be honest. Do you really think you're a bad singer? And I'm going, well, dude, I've been singing all my life, doing all this stuff, and if I thought I was a bad singer, I wouldn't be singing, would I go, wow. I mean, this is the voices in my head. This goes the logic and emotion. There's emotion here and a logic here. Emotion says, ah. And logic says, come on, put two and two together. Stop. [02:24:49] Speaker B: It's not the same kind of pride. [02:24:51] Speaker A: Yes. [02:24:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that's not. That's not what you're talking about. [02:24:53] Speaker A: And now I'm. And I gotta tell you one other thing that happened, and I. I hate to. Well, I gotta tell you, you okay? They were talking about the voice in your head and the child inside you. Well, I started doing the exercises to find a child in me. I found the child and I saw him, and I tried to nurture that child and love that child and understand that child, but it wasn't helping. Child still didn't want to come out of the cage. And I literally, in my mind, went through these things in my head where I saw myself, the child of me in the cage with the door open, and I'm standing up like this, but afraid to go out, come out. And I said to myself, dude, just come on out. It's okay. And I. And I'll never forget this. I'm sitting there at my desk, and I went, where are you? And this voice said, I'm here. And I've never had the two voices since. I hear two voices in my head, but there's not one away. And the other. They both hear each other now. And when I think something, I don't sit down and go, now what are you going to say? And how are you going to say this? And why should you say this? And you shouldn't say this because this, this or this. Now I just say it because I know what I am to do. And I don't have to go through that list because the list is already here. [02:26:10] Speaker B: You've unified yourself. [02:26:11] Speaker A: That's the weirdest thing it did. I don't have night terrors anymore. I don't feel like there's something in the room trying to oppress me. I found out that for me personally, my shadow was my demon. Wow. And it's not my demon anymore. It's my friend. Love it. [02:26:27] Speaker B: Well, you got a hell of a friend. [02:26:30] Speaker A: He beat me over it. Beat me over, you know, and the other Doug, you know, is like the other side. It's like the loving kind Doug that cares is still there. That's what I thought I would lose, but I'm still there. It's like I can still watch a TV show and cry over something that I know even true. [02:26:46] Speaker B: Hey, join us. And, yeah, and that's. That's. You've lost your pride too. Because again, hey, as a dude, I'm not too proud either. It's the same thing. You get old and you're like, hey, I gotta get better. Prod, pry, whatever you need to pry. I'm not proud of anything anymore. I know. It's just part of the game. [02:27:02] Speaker A: So, yeah, one day I said, dude, you've been trying your whole fucking life, so stop. Yeah. [02:27:10] Speaker B: Well, I'm. I'm super, super, super honored. Honored that you spent time to come here. [02:27:15] Speaker A: Thank you. [02:27:15] Speaker B: Like I said, I've learned a ton from you over the years. Learned a ton from you now, and. And I appreciate how giving of a soul you are. It means everything. [02:27:23] Speaker A: Thank you. Life is good. Life is what you make it. [02:27:29] Speaker B: Well, we're going to leave on that and I want. I'm going to expect to follow up when that record comes out. [02:27:33] Speaker A: Okay. [02:27:34] Speaker B: I will do everything I can to get that thing promoted for you. [02:27:36] Speaker A: Thank you. [02:27:37] Speaker B: I want to be the first to get it too. Up in the same era where. [02:27:39] Speaker A: Yes. [02:27:40] Speaker B: I was standing in line at the sound warehouse for Dog Man. [02:27:42] Speaker A: Okay. [02:27:44] Speaker B: That's those things, old things, record stores, whatever. [02:27:47] Speaker A: And I got your number on here, so. [02:27:48] Speaker B: Okay. Rock and roll, baby. Thank you so much. [02:27:50] Speaker A: You're welcome. What's it take? [02:27:56] Speaker B: What you going to do do what you're going to do Success around the sand Watch the second grade rules. [02:28:05] Speaker A: A. [02:28:05] Speaker B: Confident fake to make you do to. [02:28:09] Speaker A: Make you do what they want when they won't be the fool A diplomatic. [02:28:17] Speaker B: Face is the one to see it through don't let those bigots take you off your game or just let them. [02:28:25] Speaker A: Loose Sit here in the front seat. [02:28:27] Speaker B: Baby, it ain't that sweet it's take a little honey from the money be. [02:28:32] Speaker A: But don't pay the fool. [02:28:37] Speaker B: An apolitical magical potion A missing beast at the end of the game A slow roll See the truth and soul motion never found in 60 fr it's like the truth lies between blurry lines if you go.