Clay Alexander - "Just Another Day at the Office"

Speaker 0 00:00:00 In the midst of the gun fight at the branch of Edn compound, the guy beside me was dead. I'd been shot. Uh, I could see another guy hurt pretty bad close to me. Well, prior to this was a Sunday. And so, and someone may have asked if we were getting overtime paid because you, you know, federal government never does if we were getting overtime pay. And they said, No, we, we can't authorize overtime. Pay us too much. And so, anyway, during that time, during that shootout, someone hollers out and we're not getting overtime paid for this Speaker 2 00:00:29 <laugh> during the shootout, Speaker 0 00:00:30 Because you either gonna laugh, you're gonna cry, right? And laughter's a coping mechanism. Speaker 2 00:00:49 I plan to change your mind about the way law enforcement folks think. And this t cast Clay Alexander's my next guest. And you may not have heard of him. And there's good reason because the guy is humble and hasn't even told his kids 80% of the stories that we're gonna talk about on this tea cast. He experienced a lot of extraordinary things that are considered historic in events, um, good things and tragic things that have proven to show that someone can come out the other side of a tragic experience with compassion, humility, and empathy for other people, unlike some of the other rumored situations that we get from the media today. So please help me in welcoming my guest on this T cast. Clay Alexander, we're gonna make this a really easy one because I think we're gonna have a lot in common. Okay. But we're about to find out that for sure. Uh, how does an old country boy, first of all, decide to get into law enforcement? Or is, was it just single trajectory that is typical of cats that got the lunch money beat out of 'em when they were in high Speaker 0 00:02:04 School? You know, it, it was a, a, a trajectory, single trajectory. It was so weird. Um, as a young child, I can remember at six years old, all I thought about was wanted to be a policeman. That's, that's all I ever wanted to do. And there's not, My dad wasn't, I had no family members that were there. I just, um, for whatever in my mind, God put in my mind that I wanted be a policeman. And so, um, from that point forward, I really, and if anyone ever asked me what I wanted to do, it wasn't a rodeo clown. It wasn't a, you know, astronaut is a policeman. Speaker 2 00:02:38 And those were typical of our day though, too, as fireman, policeman, astronaut. Those were actually the three, You weren't allowed to be a cowboy or something. Right. True. So that's kind of it. Speaker 0 00:02:48 And I just wanted be a cop. Sustained. Yeah, I did. And so I tailored my childhood high school, college career around being a policeman. Speaker 2 00:03:01 So even So you went to college and studied? Speaker 0 00:03:04 I did criminal justice. Okay. I got a degree in criminal justice. And, um, you know, in my, I I was born and raised in central Louisiana. And so for the longest, the most badass folks that you could ever want to be in Louisiana would be Louisiana State Trooper. Those guys were awesome. They still are. And that's what I wanted to be. I took the test probably four times, failed it, and even with the college degree, you know, and civil service tests, you know, those that pass, and don't get me wrong, but it's not trigonometry, you know, you should be able to pass it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I never did. And so I couldn't understand why, you know, in that part of my path where I wanted to be, uh, a Louisiana state trooper, that's all I wanted to do. I just wanted to a college for that's what I wanted to be, and it never worked out. Speaker 2 00:03:57 Okay. So when it didn't work out, what did you decide to do? Did you have a college degree? What'd you get your, your degree Speaker 0 00:04:05 In? My, my degree was in criminal justice. Speaker 2 00:04:07 Okay. So, Speaker 0 00:04:07 So I'm trying to be a trooper. It didn't work out. So, so the federal government comes along and decides to put a federal prison about 50 miles from my hometown in central Louisiana. And at the time, in Louisiana, it was in the early eighties, early to mid eighties. A lot of the industry in Louisiana, like Texas is based on oil. And it had bottomed out, uh, the state troopers that I knew, the buddies that I knew, they hadn't had a raise in six years. They hadn't hired a trooper in six years. But this job came along. It was federal. The pay was better, it had more benefits, but it's a prison guard. The work sucked. But at the time I wanted to get married, I needed a job. Speaker 2 00:04:52 And you're looking for something industry related? Speaker 0 00:04:55 Industry related. Yeah. Sure. And, and this is about as peripheral as you can get. I understand. Sure. But, um, so I got hired on as a federal prison guard bureau Prisons in Oakdale, Louisiana, and, um, Oakdale Speaker 2 00:05:07 Of all places. Oakdale. Interesting. Speaker 0 00:05:09 Yes. Oakdale a little, little small, you know, uh, town south of Alexandria, which is where I lived. And, um, and they put a very large prison there and had over a thousand inmates. Um, but it was, um, it was where I ended up working for a couple years. Speaker 2 00:05:29 And you're not gonna get that one by me. So you said Oakdale, I was like, And you said Oakdale in eighties? Speaker 0 00:05:37 Yes. Oakdale in eighties. Well, so were Speaker 2 00:05:39 You around? Speaker 0 00:05:40 Yes. In 19, in 1987. What they had during going on during that time, or previous to that time, was unbridled, illegal immigrant flooding the United States. Sounds somewhat familiar mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, but it wasn't from Mexico, it was from Florida. It was Cubans. So, um, the president at the time, um, Jimmy Carter said, We opened, we welcome the Cubans with open arms. That was his statement. So the first thing Fidel Castro did was opened all of his prisons and sent all of his inmates to the United States. So when people started hitting the ground in Florida, they were bad people. I'm not saying immigrants are bad people, I'm saying those were bad people. Right. Those were prisoners and another kind. They were prisoners. Yeah. Some accounts, they had multiple murders. I think we had one in the federal prison that had at least documented 12 murders. And so they opened the gates. Speaker 0 00:06:35 Even the Cubans that were trying to do it right in South Florida, one of these people dealt with. So they literally had to put federal prisons and load them up with these Cubans. And so that's, it was a, that's the kind of prison it was. It was a federal detention center. It wasn't a federal correctional center at the time. Now it's changed, but at the time, it was a federal detention center for inmates. They had immigration officer Correct. For a review. All of all these, you know, um, immigrant type facilities there, where the United States decided that they were gonna send some of these folks back under the next administration. Well, they told everybody. So they worked out a deal with Cuba. Okay, we'll take 'em back. Well, they told everyone except the federal prison system. So we were an open facility. Okay. Which means that I would go into it at night, I would go into a wing of an open dormitory type facility with 167 Cubans, and it would be me and one other person with no farm. Speaker 0 00:07:37 Because they don't wanna give you anything, no keys. Right. Of course. They lock you in. Yep. And they lock you in the dorm with them. So at the time, they said, all of a sudden that day, that morning, they decided that they were gonna make this agreement. And it comes out on cnn that all these inmates in Atlanta, Georgia, which is where they're housing them mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Oakdale, Louisiana, were gonna be sent back to Cuba. Well, these Cubans knew that second, they hit the ground, they're gonna die. Um, and they would've, So they said, No, this isn't gonna happen. And I was working, you know, in a position where I, I I, I had a lot of interaction with, with these inmates. And, um, and I had, I don't wanna say relationships with them, but they, they talked to me. I talked to 'em like human beings and whatever. And so they kept telling me, they called me Alejandro, They thought I was Russian, but they called me Alejandro. Alejandro, go home. Go home. It's not good tonight. It's not good tonight. I said, Man, whatever. So I went and told the administration, Hey, these guys saying something's going on tonight. And the thought process at the time was, We've never lost a federal prison. We never will. And so we're just gonna keep marching as we did four hours later, uh, I think 14 billings for burning and, uh, yeah. 20 odd of us were held to. Speaker 2 00:08:56 And so how did that actually start to take place? Cuz that's really intense. You don't hear about an inside scoop. You always hear the law enforcement end from the outside trying to get in. What was it like? Tell Speaker 0 00:09:09 These people. Yes. What happened was, you know, in the federal prison, you understand it's, I don't wanna say Gucci, but it's a lot different than state prison. Of course. I mean, they were teaching them mu I'm looking at your facility here. They're look teaching 'em how to play musical instruments. They're, you can get an education, you could, they were putting up, they were building a putt putt course. Speaker 2 00:09:29 It's not a, a high security facility. It Speaker 0 00:09:31 Was a high security, but it had a lot of things going on. One of the things going on was at night they allowed them to play music, you know, Cuban music, whatever that might be. Okay. The key was at seven, I believe it was seven 30 that evening when the music stopped, shit was gonna hit the fan. That was the key throughout the inmates. And so they told me that, we told the administration that. Uh, So Speaker 2 00:09:54 You knew specifically about the music too? Oh Speaker 0 00:09:56 Yeah. Good work. And it was, but again, you gotta understand it was before a Rio and after, right before that. And it's true, the federal government had never lost an institution. So they didn't know No, no, they wouldn't do that. It's not gonna happen. Seven 30 music stopped. Um, and it got really interesting. They started digging out shanks and things that they had made and buried in the ground. And, uh, they'd gotten to the, uh, mechanical warehouse where they had, you know, all their stuff hidden. And um, and then it was, you know, they're coming at you. Well, remember I got one housing unit with 170 odd inmates in it. They're wanting to get out to participate in a riot to riot. I'm wanting to survive. I can't get out. What I do have is a staff bathroom and the people on the other unit. And at that time there was me and another guy, unit counselor. There's about three staff members on each unit. Okay. And 300 and some odd inmates who are wanting to get out. And, but all we had access to from a security standpoint was, um, the staff restroom. So we, which was in a, in a central area, you had a wing. A wing and a central area. Speaker 2 00:11:18 Concealment is essentially all you had at that Speaker 0 00:11:20 Point. Yes. So we locked ourselves in, in the restroom. Well, one of the things that got into, when they got into the mechanical building, the inmates was pickaxes. And so they started coming through the walls of the, of the unit, housing unit we ran. So we decided, well, maybe we should go up in the ceiling. You know, it's a one of those drop tile ceilings just in the restroom area. So we got up in the ceiling, crawl up in the ceiling. I don't know how my fat self done. I wouldn't near the size I am now <laugh>. But we, uh, the only thing in those restrooms was, well, they kept all the mops and stuff. So we carried mops up there. So then they started coming, trying to come up the walls and we're beating 'em down with mops, trying to keep 'em getting, Cause they, it was, you know, in the initial stage of a riot, it's, it's a bad time. Speaker 0 00:12:06 You know, they're almost like stages of grief. They initial is not good. You know, they're just looking to cause harm and destruction. And so at that point, they wanted us down and they were going to, going to harm us. So we're beating them down with a, with mops and stuff. And we had the high ground, so they couldn't get to us. So they, um, decided, well, we'll just burn 'em. So they started to fire in that they got all the stuff that they could get from the housing units and that would burn. They set it in there. I know how they got flame. I, well, I do. They had lot. They let 'em smoke during those days. Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, back to those days you'd have to give 'em cigarettes. And so they piled this stuff up. They got some, uh, fuel out of the mechanical building where they mowed the grass and they started a pretty good fire. Speaker 0 00:12:52 And, um, and it was getting us, uh, because it was getting hot, it was getting smoky. Um, but the sprinkler system went off. Now I don't know who invented that damn sprinkler system, but I'd kiss him on the lips if ever saw <laugh>, because that's the only thing that saved us. And, uh, that sprinkler system went off and it caused a lot of smoke up in the attic where we were. But at that point, they could hear all the stuff going on in the yards. They were burning buildings. They were thinking they were getting out, you know, like breach the, the fence. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so at that point, they left, they left us, we're up there, and they, they wanted to participate in what was going on out in the yard. Speaker 2 00:13:31 And y'all know where they left to. Speaker 0 00:13:33 I don't know what they're up to. I just knew they left. Speaker 2 00:13:35 Right. It's a different sensation, knowing in retrospect where they went and what they did is completely different than being completely blind. Sure. In a ceiling that's quiet. Are you coming down or they all just a group outside the restroom or what? So how'd you, you decide what to do at that point? Speaker 0 00:13:53 We're, we're not coming down. <laugh> we're up in that ceiling steel and we're all looking at each other. And it went on for several hours. This was a long time. Went on for several hours. And, um, so then they, they started filtering back in and then they remembered, Hey, we got the immediates up in the roof up in the ceiling. So they come back in and at that point, the stages of grief, so to speak, had kind of worked itself down. And they look, we're not gonna kill you, but you can't stay up there. You know, we're going, we're gonna burn the, the building down. Which they could have done that. And they were burning buildings down. So at that point, Speaker 2 00:14:28 Was this someone negotiating with you that you knew? Speaker 0 00:14:31 Yes. Um, in the housing unit, you know, when you have a housing unit, you have what they call orderlies. You have inmates that don't act stupid, that kind of, you know, their theoretical title would be a, someone that cleans the bathrooms and someone that mops the floors, whatever. But basically they're the ones that kind of oversee the unit for you, Hey, you know, you need to keep an eye on number 16. This, this is gonna be an issue tonight. You know, that kind of, he's, I don't wanna say he is your snitch, but you know, he, he's your orderly. And I had, Speaker 2 00:15:03 He's kind of a cross between, He's a con he's a contact between them and you. Yes. Cause he's sort of on he's liaison. He's, Yeah, exactly. He's, Speaker 0 00:15:10 He's a liaison on both sides. Yeah. So these guys I, I knew. And, uh, the Alejandro, come on now, man, we we're not gonna hurt you. There wasn't a lot of options at that point. And so at that point we were hostages, they had us and um, we were all in this housing unit. They kind of put us in one area. Uh, there was about six of us maybe. And then Were Speaker 2 00:15:31 You bound or what? Speaker 0 00:15:32 No, they just kind of put us in one of the, one of the rooms, which is an open dorm room type room. You'd have four per room. Uh, there are no doors on it, but you, you know, they had people there, you weren't coming out. And so, um, you know, we're in there for hours and hours. And, and then, uh, I had some more orderlies that came by, the guys that I had known. And, um, you know, these guys were, you know, they, they, I never got the sense they were just mass murderers or whatever. They, all they wanted to do was do their time, figure out what their life looked, looked like in the future. And so I'd talk to 'em a little bit, you know, most of 'em spoke English. And at that point I could speak Spanish and so, or, or Cuban Spanish at least. Speaker 0 00:16:20 And so we would talk and we would visit and um, you, you know, they, they, I respected them. They respected me. You do your time. I'm gonna do my job. We're gonna get along just fine. And so they said, Alejandro, come with us. Well, at this point, I don't know what the heck they had in time in mind for me, you know. And so they, they pulled me out of that particular room and everyone else stayed. And I'm like, I'd really rather stay with these guys. And, uh, and so they said, No, come with us. And so I went with them and we went to the other housing unit where there were no, no, um, hostages, but there were a lot of inmates milling around. Speaker 2 00:16:59 Inmates that you were less familiar with, Speaker 0 00:17:01 Didn't know any of 'em. Speaker 2 00:17:02 Right. Speaker 0 00:17:03 And so they're looking, you know, you're getting stink eye and all those other stuff. And they say, uh, you, you always treat us good, We're gonna get you out. So they gave me inmate clothes, which was at the time was khaki pants and a green military, om whatever jacket. You remember the old green military jacket? Yeah, sure. Yeah. And that's what those inmates would wear. And uh, they gave me that and said, Put this on. So I did. And, uh, they said, We're gonna get you out. Well, the particular housing unit we were in, this was one, the, the, the prison was a one mile circle. A one mile fence. And we were about the farthest era you could get from the place to get out of. And so the game, and Speaker 2 00:17:46 You say we too, at this point, are all six of you? Speaker 0 00:17:50 No, just me. The other five are, are, are still, They Speaker 2 00:17:54 Separated. You Speaker 0 00:17:54 Separated me Speaker 2 00:17:55 Because you were the one that they, Speaker 0 00:17:57 They knew. Speaker 2 00:17:57 They knew and had been cool Speaker 0 00:18:00 With them. Yes. Speaker 2 00:18:02 And that says a little something too. Well, Speaker 0 00:18:05 Do Speaker 2 00:18:05 You feel like you were a unique beast in that regard? Speaker 0 00:18:09 You know, I mean, you, you see all types in law enforcement, you know, that, um, you see the kind that, it's like if you're, you're stopped by a policeman on the road and one of 'em puts his, uh, foot on your bumper. It says, Come here boy. Right. And then you have the ones that talk to you with respect. And by the time they're through talking to you, say, Please write me a ticket, cuz you know, you're just doing your job. Yeah. And I'd like to think that I was that guy, um, that was res just treated people with respect. And I did. And I will continue to do so. Um, these guys, I'm not no flame of liberal, don't get me wrong. You know, some of these guys needed to be dealt with, but some of 'em, they just didn't know what to do. They might have been in prison for shoplifting in Cuba. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And now they find themselves in a prison in Louisiana. And they're just like, Man, what do I, you know, Speaker 2 00:19:01 At the prospect of being murdered when they get sent back to you. Exactly. Right. Speaker 0 00:19:05 You know, and, and a lot of it, you know, a lot of it's just fall on the crowd. You know, a lot of us just fall in the crowd. And, and the crowd at that point, there was the bad guys took over and they were the leaders. And so, you know, when they, when they put me in inmate closed, they said, We're gonna get you out. But we're pretty far away from the entrance. And by that time, the buildings were burning. Um, the power was out, had generators going, but it wasn't a lot of light. And so we started walking across the courtyard towards the front entrance. They said, Just act normal, however that would be <laugh>. Well, one thing about Cubans, uh, at least at the time, they're not very tall. They're not very tall. Right. I'm six one. Yeah. And that's not extremely tall, but I was ahead over them. Yeah. You know, and so we're walking across here and you could, and we're illuminated by the flames of the buildings that were burning. And so we're walking across about that time a group, about 12 of them saw me. And they had handmade machetes and axes, whatever. And here they come, They their, you know, uh, Speaker 2 00:20:10 Cause they didn't know that you were help being helped. They Speaker 0 00:20:14 Just, they didn't, you'd say, Well, actually they did. They just wanted to kill or, or, or harm any staff person there, because that was the group that was just crazy ass. And the inmates, you know, the five or six inmates that were sneaking me out went and fought those suckers off to get me out. And they said, Run for the gate. And I did. And, uh, and they went and fought 'em off. And, uh, before that happened, the only identification you really have in a federal prison at the time was a commissary cart. You know, you could buy things at the commissary, you could buy chips or ramen noodles or whatever. But the only way to do that is through your commissary card. And, uh, the only way you get money on your commissary card is to do what's called federal prison industries, or unicorn, whatever they call it these days. Speaker 0 00:20:59 And at that time, they were making uniforms with military, you know, something like that. Yeah. They handed me their commissary cards and said, Don't forget us. And, um, I ran for the gate. And so all, all the guys that were at the, at the front, now, don't get me wrong, by this time it's hours into this thing. They had every policeman that they can come up with in state Louisiana, circling the place with police cars and lights, lights on it, and a six foot one guy in a and in inmate clothes heading for the gate. Yeah. You know? And so by that time, they look at me like we know him. And in a, in a federal prison, it was really interesting. In these prisons, in the detention center, you also had very low risk inmates that worked outside the fence. All right. These, these were guys like bank presidents that embezzled and stuff like that. Speaker 0 00:21:58 Uh, chiropractors that did Medicare fraud. And I, I, and I say that because I remember one of 'em was, Okay. And so you had about 50 or 75 of these guys that at the beginning of the day, they would leave the institution, they'd run to the mail, the post office, they had mow outside, they'd take care of anything outside the institution, but they were very low risk. Them suckers wanted out. And, and no one was coming out that point. So they were all bunched up at the, at the front door trying to get out. My people are trying to get me out. So they finally squeezed me through the front gate to the front door. They cracked the door. All the low risk inmates make a run for it. They had to slam the door shut. I'm halfway in the door. So really the injury I got was my own people shutting the door on me. Speaker 0 00:22:44 <laugh>. So, but yeah, it was, uh, I, I, I got out, uh, you know, at the time, fatalities in that were there, they say, No, Okay, But you're gonna understand the government at that time, and maybe this time. But we saw people being killed. And, uh, the official, um, the official response from the federal government was there was no fatalities they people to keep their faith that we got it all together. Yeah. And it, and it wasn't staff. They went after the snitches. They knew who they were. Okay. You know, and they went after the people that they felt were, had caused them harm throughout their stay. Wow. And, uh, the staff got injured. Some of us, some of them, but number kill. But the inmates that, you know, they're in every prison. Yeah. And, and those are the ones that didn't fare too well. Speaker 2 00:23:49 So was it just naturally part of your personality to have a little bit more of the empathetic view? Because I think a lot of people have to develop that. And in law enforcement, you see people go one of two ways and sometimes they see the worst part of people and it ruins their perspective. Yes. Other people will see it and they will increase their empathetic per perspective. Speaker 0 00:24:14 So I'm not, I'm not saying that, you know, after 30 years of it, that I wasn't somewhat biased or somewhat hardened. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause I was, my wife will be the first to tell you that. But I do know that at that time, and at, at most of the time throughout my career, even with my employees, the guys that I supervised, the people that I held, um, I was always the guy that, you know, like you say, there are two versions. You know, they're the hard asses. They're the, they're the warriors, and you had to have 'em. You know, and then there are those, the peacemakers and, and I was the peacemaker. And, uh, when, you know, throughout, later on in my career, I became a hostage negotiator. I became a, uh, a team leader for hostage negotiations throughout the country. And, um, because, you know, the warriors don't like host negotiators. Right. They wanna go in and take care of Speaker 2 00:25:14 Business. I got the shot <laugh> Speaker 0 00:25:15 Green Speaker 2 00:25:16 Light. You got the sheriff, sir. Speaker 0 00:25:17 Not that the green light, It worked sometimes. Speaker 2 00:25:20 Oh, I do understand. Speaker 0 00:25:22 But I was always the peacekeeper, and I was, and, um, I can remember one time an inmate, you know, inmates steal from inmates, and, um, the only connection they had with their family was male. So they could write a letter to their family. Well, this old boy got a stamp stolen. And, and I brought him, you know, and he was just distraught. And I knew him because he would, he'd work, you know, the commissary or whatever. I just knew who he was. And, and I brought him some stamps, which would've gotten me in a lot of trouble. But I brought him a book of stamps. And, um, the guy didn't know what to do. I mean, he was just like, no one's ever been this kind to me. And for me, it's like, this is less than ought to spend at McDonald's driving home from work today. Right. And so I didn't understand how, you know, you gotta understand where these people, some of these people are coming from. Speaker 2 00:26:15 But people don't initiate thoughts like that unless it's just sort of innate, or they've been raised that way or something. Mean, if, if we knew that there was something that we could learn, like, Hey, I read this book and the epiphany came and all of sudden it was the kindest guy. Speaker 0 00:26:29 I think my mom taught me this. Um, she, uh, she was always the helper. I mean, even till the time she died two months ago, she fell over dead. And she was playing the piano at nursing homes. She was taking care of a niece that was, uh, had surgery that day, the day she died. I mean, she's always helped people. Mm. That was, her ministry was just helping people. And it's something that I think I, number one I grew up with, but I was wired for it, you know? And so if there's anything that I, it wasn't a book, It wasn't an epiphany. It wasn't anything other than a very incredible woman in my life that, um, showed me how people should be. Speaker 2 00:27:10 Yeah. That's amazing. And, um, more of them. Speaker 0 00:27:13 Yeah, we do. And she, uh, yeah, she, she passed away two months ago. Speaker 2 00:27:18 I'm sorry to hear that. Well, I appreciate that. But you're carrying a torch, obviously. I'd Speaker 0 00:27:22 Like to Speaker 2 00:27:23 Think so you picked that torch up a long time ago, because this is even before you really took on your primary career and led other people. I Speaker 0 00:27:32 Did. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm sitting here after the prison riots, there were no inmates. They scattered 'em throughout the country. Um, you know, the, the, going a little bit back to the prison riot, the people that the five that I left to get out stayed there for seven days. And, um, so it went on a long time. They ultimately got a archbishop out of Miami, a Cuban archbishop. They flew him to, you know, the facility to negotiate the release. And it worked. Speaker 2 00:28:06 So did you ever find out what happened to the cats? Did you have the commissary cards for Speaker 0 00:28:11 I didn't. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:28:12 I didn't, didn't know what I mean. There's no way. Didn't really access that. Yeah. No idea. I assume they all got sent back at that point. Well, Speaker 0 00:28:19 No. Um, actually, um, after the riots, and, and get me wrong, during this time, Oakdale, we'd lost the prison. And this is 1100 inmates. We lost the prison. Well, in Atlanta, the other federal prison that had Cubans and folks at least long along these lines, knew that this had happened. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Well, that warden decided it's not gonna happen there. So he opened up his doors and said, We're just gonna do business as usual. Well, they lost Atlanta too. And, uh, you know, they burned Atlanta down also. And so I gave the commissary cards to the powers that be when we were debriefed after all of this and said, These guys help me, but I'm sure it didn't go anywhere. Speaker 2 00:29:04 Yeah. Well, they have to hand them to somebody else that has the same idea that ideals that you do and Right. That's very Speaker 0 00:29:11 Interesting. But no one got, no one got sent back. They all put 'em throughout the country. Um, some of them, I mean, the riot worked. I can remember they said they had to go down to Goodwill. And almost by every piece of closing that they had, put 'em in street clothes, gave 'em some money, and put 'em on a bus to wherever they think they might have family. And they were gone. Speaker 2 00:29:31 Let Speaker 0 00:29:31 'em loose. Let 'em loose. Speaker 2 00:29:33 Good for Speaker 0 00:29:34 <laugh>. Let 'em loose. My man, that Speaker 2 00:29:36 Doesn't seem very logical either. Speaker 0 00:29:37 No, it doesn't, does it? Speaker 2 00:29:39 No. Wow. That, that's a fascinating, what a fascinating story to launch a, a law enforcement Speaker 0 00:29:46 Career. Right. So I was, you know, uh, all the inmates were gone. They'd sent 'em all out. They were rebuilding the institution. They put all the guards, you know, correctional officers, excuse me, We're all back at work with no one to watch. So they're trying to put paint brushes in our hand and hammers and nails and help, help whatever. And, um, you know, pretty much throughout the whole course of that, you know, stay there. Most people were looking for a little different federal type job because these correctional officers don't get me. They do a great job and it's a need. And they're underpaid. They're overworked. I get it. Yeah. It's not what I wanted to do. Right. So, you know, I was looking for a job and I found out that ATF was high Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco on fires. So I, I put in for the job, but the first thing you have to do is take what's called a Treasury enforcement agent exam at that, a TE exam. At that point, ATF was under the Treasury Department. And so I, you had to take this TE exam where the TE exam is one of the hardest exams there is to pass. It Speaker 2 00:30:59 Didn't a civil service exam. No, Speaker 0 00:31:00 His saying is insane. Yeah. Okay. And everyone said, You'll never do it, brother. Cause I, number one, I wasn't sharpest tool in the shed. But number two, I mean, this was trigonometry. This was anything that they could come up with to screw you up. And I can't pass it. Damn. Louisiana Civil Service test. Right. So I took the test and I killed it. Speaker 2 00:31:21 That's what I'm talking about, Speaker 0 00:31:22 You know, and fate. That's it. Yeah. I killed it. And so, um, I got hired as an ATF agent. I told my wife he'd be safer than working in a prison. She Speaker 2 00:31:35 Probably believed you at that. Speaker 0 00:31:35 She probably believed me. Right. And, uh, it's funny at the time that at this time of the ride I had, my wife was nine months pregnant. Well, 7, 8, 9 months pregnant with my first child. So, you know, it, it's center for Loop. She always supported me. I mean, and still does. I mean, don't get me wrong, because I, I have supervised men that their wives did not. And having a wife that doesn't support your dreams is just, Yeah. Oh my goodness. You know, their their lives were miserable. My wife never batted an eye. She always backed me. And to this day, she backs me more so than I deserve. And so, um, Speaker 2 00:32:13 Amen. Did that by the way, Speaker 0 00:32:14 <laugh>, you know, And so we're just, uh, you know, she says, Okay, this is be an ATF agent. And, um, and I got hired. Uh, I went through all the, the interviewing process. And, um, Speaker 2 00:32:28 This is around what year did you Speaker 0 00:32:29 Launch? 1988. Speaker 2 00:32:32 Okay. Speaker 0 00:32:32 88, Yeah. 1988. And so it was about, uh, six, eight months after the riots. And, uh, I'm not saying that the right didn't help me. Uh, it might have, you know, as far as, but you know, there are a lot of people that apply for jobs that may, might not have many skins on the wall. And so at that point, it probably, it probably did mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, I went to, um, when interviews and everything and, uh, e even then, they were saying, You never get it. You'll never get it. You don't know anyone. You're not a cpa. You not have anything to bring to the table. You're not a previous law enforcement. Because correctional officers and people that, that are real police, they're different. And I never was a real police. I never was. So I just kept following my dream. And, um, you know, it kept moving forward and I kept, kept moving forward. Then they offered me a job in Little Rock, Arkansas. Speaker 2 00:33:33 So they move you? Of course. Speaker 0 00:33:34 Oh, yeah. Because then I could keep you in the same location, but at least they kept me in the south. Yeah. And, um, so, um, got hired on and, uh, I'm a special agent in Little Rock, Arkansas. Speaker 2 00:33:46 That's, that's awesome. So, and you, and you ended up finishing out your career in the atf. When did you retire? Speaker 0 00:33:53 I retired in 2015. Okay. January of 2015. Speaker 2 00:33:59 So you've built quite a few things since then. I bet. Speaker 0 00:34:02 Yes. You know, I, I have, um, you know, atf, look, I get it guys. You know, enfor firearms laws in the South is not a fun thing to do. Um, you have an incredible, uh, lobby out there that their entire being is telling people how terrible you are. And so, you know, it was just, it was hard. Uh, it was a hard job. But the agency always treated us well, you understand, in treasury, And again, at that time, we were still under treasury. In Treasury. We had Secret Service, which yes, they have some enforcement jobs, but their primary job is protection. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you had irs, we know what IRS does, but then you had us, Well, the Treasury didn't know what the hell we did. You know, they just know that through fees and everything and taxes on distilled spirits and all that other stuff, we paid for ourselves. We never cost the federal government penny. So they weren't about to get do away with us. And, and so, um, they always treated us well, You know, if we needed something, they'd help us Speaker 2 00:35:14 With it. And obviously, I mean, ATF has been involved in primary and secondary roles in a lot of the, the biggest happenings in the last half a century. Speaker 0 00:35:25 Well, if you go back to history, you know, it's when, um, they taxed certain things to pay for the Revolutionary War. Distill s play Foolish of War. And that was the, the predecessor atf. Yeah. Then it got to be the Bureau of Prohibition, Elliot Nest Days. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that was atf. Speaker 2 00:35:46 They still hated you. Speaker 0 00:35:47 Oh, yeah. <laugh>. Absolutely. You know, and then, then you have to enforce. Now Grant, there are a lot of laws ATS enforced, but most notably firms. And, um, you know, so look guys, you know, ATFs not perfect, but there is no perfect agency out there. There are policemen that don't do it right there. Agency know it. Right. There are pastors that don't do it. Right. Priests that don't do it. Right. Teachers that don't do it. Right. Presidents that don't do it. Right. So no one's perfect. I mean, if I think ATF could invent the cure to cancer and still be criticized because they got a lot of lobbies against them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so it was, it was a tough job. Speaker 2 00:36:25 But from the inside, I assume someone like you as described thus far, uh, with the type of integrity you have must have appreciated the goal of what you're actually doing. And you knew that it was noble despite the political backlash. Right. Speaker 0 00:36:45 Exactly. You know, I personally, I'm a gun homeowner. I have more guns than my wife knows about. Um, I have, I'm a hunter. I, I, we went dove hunting this past weekend here in West Texas. I, I love farms, but I don't think convicted felon should have guns. All right. I don't think that those that are involved in drug trafficking should allow, be allowed to be armed. I think there should be a penalty for that. And that's primarily the vast majority of what ATF did. But again, you know, um, you have those that believe everything they read on the internet that, that don't think that that's, that's the case. Right. Yes. They screwed up a lot of things, but a lot of people do. Speaker 2 00:37:27 Right. Well, in law enforcement, I think in as a whole is kind of caught up to you. I think there's a lot of disdain for law enforcement. There is, there's a lot of support on paper, but I think there's still generally a lot of disdain for law enforce. Sure. I think the transparency is both beneficial and disadvantageous for law enforcement as we see it. Because I think, you know, the, some of the, uh, some of the Jack Assery has been exposed. Yes. And it's gonna take a little bit for that to be overcome, which I think it will. Speaker 0 00:37:59 I hope so. I mean, I know I still know a bunch of guys on the job, and, um, they're just counting the days then get out of it. You know, They're too, they're too far invested to, to not finish it out. And, um, but they're miserable. Speaker 2 00:38:12 There's not enough good people that aspire to be in lodge. There really isn't anymore. So I, I worry that it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Do you think? I Speaker 0 00:38:22 Do. Because, not just because of the idiots that are all this defund police stuff, but because right now police departments are so desperate for employees that I hope it doesn't get to the point where you kick a rock, something crawls out and you hire em because that's gonna, that's gonna hurt, Speaker 2 00:38:46 Hurt. It's get, it's getting close. It is. It's getting close. And they've got, you know, where it's unionized or even the civil service law around here, you've got chiefs that have, you know what, you know, up north, they had, in the Floyd case, they've got like 40 or 50 people that had been fired by the chief that got their job back. And I can't imagine, as a person who owns a business, I can't imagine firing somebody and then, uh, somebody taking that to a, somebody that decide, somebody else, that, a third party that decides no, they're gonna stay in your business. I mean, I, I can't imagine how that could provide a, a healthy culture for them. Speaker 0 00:39:23 It can't. It it can't. You know, And I thought it was bad when I retired. It was under the previous administration. And I'm not trying to get political, but Speaker 2 00:39:31 Let's not <laugh>. Speaker 0 00:39:32 Well, yeah. But, you know, I had, I had a president that, that and a, and an attorney general that did not support law enforcement. And I thought that was bad. So in my mind, I knew that, okay, this is the time. And I was eligible. I got my kids through college almost. And, uh, I knew this was a time that I needed to go. You know, everyone says, everyone told me, all the old timers when I started, everyone told me that you'll know when it's time. You'll know mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And at that point, I knew and, and I thought that was just SCO awful time. But these poor guys now, Yeah. I mean, they just, because it's not just politicians that are on 'em, they've turned the public against them. Yeah. Yeah. And for no reason. Yes. You got some knuckleheads out there that policemen that should be in prison the rest of their lives. I, I understand. Yeah. But the vast, vast, vast majority of them, um, I'm glad they're out there when I'm assist tonight of Speaker 2 00:40:34 Oh, of course. Yeah. We all are. And you know, unfortunately, I think for so many years until recently, even the law enforcement, uh, coworkers used to kind of ignore the jackasses mm-hmm. <affirmative> as, and put it off as such. Right. You always had that, I'm not opening my mouth type of attitude. And I think now the one good thing that's come outta some of this is the good cops are now willing to do whatever to get rid of the jackasses that are ruining it for everyone else. Right. Cuz they wanna be able to do good work. Right. And it's, it's such a noble profession still. Yeah. It just needs to stay cleaned up. I mean, there's been graft and all kinds of corruption and stuff throughout the years. We know. But I think now since you can communicate in real time with the entire world Yeah. When one guy, one buffoon, uh, makes a name for himself, then you know, that word travels fast. That's, so, it's difficult for someone outside of law enforcement to really understand that. But I think it goes for any business really. You can go into the military to a small business or whatever, you always have a players and you always have bottom of the wrong. That's it. And the key there is if the bottom of the wrong are doing what the we see on the news, then you gotta, you've gotta cut bait on those guys. Speaker 0 00:41:50 And there's such great guy I went to, uh, here last week, uh, San Antonio Police Department there, graduation. There's a young man there that I had mentored most of my life, most of his life. Awesome. And he graduated, and I went and watched him graduate. And I met those guys, and I talked to those guys and met the, you know, the powers it'd be and quality. Just quality. Speaker 2 00:42:10 That's great. Speaker 0 00:42:11 You know, and it just, it just gave me such a good feeling about the potential future. Well, good. I mean, they started with 60 and I think they graduated 32. It's Heart academy. But those that are, those that, that lasted, um, I mean, there are good guys out there. There are good people that want the job. But when you get a youngster, I say a youngster, even in college or whatever, um, that, that have a mind and wanna be in law enforcement, or even not in college, they wanna be in law enforcement. And, and the stuff they see on the news and the stuff they see that folks are talking about, they're going a different route. Yeah. I mean, for sure. Who wants to work Christmas morning making half what you could make somewhere else. Right. You gotta love it. Yeah. And for sure. And those that love it are getting talked out of it. Yeah. Um, you know, no one, I have three kids, none of 'em got into law enforcement and I'm not sad about it. You know, <laugh> <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:43:08 Well, your kids are all smarter than us anyway. Seriously. Right. I think that starts there. Right? Speaker 0 00:43:13 Yeah. But, you know, it's like I go back to where, I don't know what brain synapse hit in my head that wanted me to be in this line of work, but, uh, um, you know, none, none of my family before, or none of my family after, uh, were in law Speaker 2 00:43:27 Enforcement. So, All right. So I'm gonna back you up a little bit. Okay. And, uh, stop me if I'm pushing buttons that that's fine. That are going the wrong direction. But during your career, I know that you experienced a lot of different things just based on the span of your career. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and one particular incident I had, uh, we spoke with Danny Colson in here for, for quite a while. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he was a deputy director over at the fbi. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Speaker 0 00:43:49 Good Speaker 2 00:43:49 Guy. He ended up, so, you know, Danny. I do. Okay. So now Speaker 0 00:43:53 I've met him. Speaker 2 00:43:54 So we talked a little bit about a number of different things as well, but one of which was the misconception that the FBI was kind of in, in control of the branch DN situation, which is only, I think that's just a way to remember it, because they only became involved at the very end. Correct. Do you have, do you have any way to describe for those? Well, I mean, it's too much to describe Right? If, if you don't know about it, most people that are over the age of 25 mm-hmm. <affirmative> have to know about this, this thing. How did it devolve and what was your sentiment about how the ATF handled it? Okay. What was your, since you're, I don't know if you're a supervisor then, or what, what kind of power did you have? And can you talk about that a little bit? Speaker 0 00:44:43 First off, if you don't mind, I'm gonna give you my background on Waco because so many people have opinions and stuff that they've read on the internet, stuff that they've read or have been told. And, uh, and everyone has an opinion and that's fine. Um, in, in my situation, uh, I was in Little Rock, Arkansas, an agent, and I was told that there was a very large operation going down in Texas and they needed volunteers. Well, the old adage of don't ever volunteer for anything, never really kicked in. It should have <laugh>, but it never, it never kicked in. So I, I volunteered to go help, didn't know, have any idea what, what was coming up. So I volunteered for a, to be on a support agent on a search warrant on a place about 12 miles southeast or somewhere of Waco, called the Branch David and Compound. Speaker 0 00:45:42 And we spent, um, several days in Fort Hood practicing for this search warrant. And, um, on the morning of February 28th, uh, it was a Sunday. We were all in the community center, but some sort of community, big community area in Waco. And I mean, we had little old ladies serving us donuts that worked there. We had ambulance people or whatever. And without getting into, unless you want me to, um, exactly what happened, loss of element of surprise or whatever. And, and I'll talk about anything you want to, I just don't wanna take up all your time, but I'm just Speaker 2 00:46:23 No, it, it could be important. I mean, cuz I think that's a lot of the misconception and the misinformation is how it rolled out. Cuz all, all anyone else got is from the news of the time. Speaker 0 00:46:35 So atf, uh, contracted through an ambulance service to be on standby during the course of this operation, because there was a hundred of them, a hundred of us. There's a lot of people around in odds are, you might need one. There was an employee of the ambulance service whose live-in boyfriend was a reporter. And they gave, uh, the reporter this exclusive that hey, because there had already been an article written about this branch of videos and David Crash, his name was Vernon Howell, um, had already said there's gonna be a confrontation. And so, you know, that area was already kind of thinking about this. And the reporters were already thinking about this. And so she, this ambulance driver gives her boyfriend an exclusive saying, Hey, just not for nothing. But we've been hired for the atf. So this is probably gonna be, this is a Sunday morning. So he wants to get out there early and find out what's going on. He wants to be take pictures, he wants to take video during this raid. Well, it, when, when people say it happened in Waco, it's not the Waco proper, it's not in the woods. Right. All right. Of course, in Waco's, not Woods is Prairie or whatever you Speaker 2 00:47:52 Wanna call it, way out in the open, but way Speaker 0 00:47:53 Off the road. Speaker 2 00:47:54 Yeah, Speaker 0 00:47:54 Yeah. Out of middle of nowhere. Right. Speaker 0 00:47:57 So he gets out there and gets lost. Well, he sees this rural mail carrier has a big sign on this car US Mail, driving a personal vehicle and flags him down and says, Hey dude, where's this branch ofn compound that was in the paper a few weeks ago, or a few days ago. And the guy tells him, Go down here, took a left on Double H, Ranch Road, whatever, whatever. And the, and the mail care says why. He goes, Well, ATS bat rental warrant on it, and I work for the news station and I'm gonna be down there and, um, I wanna video it. Well, the guy he stopped was a branch of Videon, the rural mail carrier was a branch of Videon. So he went back inside the compound of which we had an undercover agent inside the compound that had joined the branch of videos. Speaker 0 00:48:48 And he went inside the compound and told 'em, well, they started sandbagging the windows, getting the guns out and everything else. The agent that was inside the compound gets out, uh, goes to an area where he can call and says the, you know, this whole search warrant was based on the element of surprise. And we had lost the element of surprise. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, we had, we rolled up there in cattle trailers so that we were literally agents stuffed in cattle trailers and pulled with four wheel dry pickups so that they wouldn't think about who we were. Speaker 2 00:49:25 And just for clarity, for non law enforcement listeners, any dynamic search warrant is completely predicated on the element of Speaker 0 00:49:34 100%. Speaker 2 00:49:35 So otherwise, if you, that's why there's, uh, you know, some contention about knocking and talking mm-hmm. <affirmative> and giving them a chance to arm Speaker 0 00:49:43 Themselves, knock them out. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:49:44 Or destroy evidence and different things. But when you do a dynamic search warrant, you know that there's dangerous elements inside, whether it be guns or intentions or Yes. Whatever. So, and that case, Speaker 0 00:49:55 You have to get, you have that special court order for a no not warrant. Right. Speaker 0 00:49:59 And that's what this was. So he gets out, he calls this compound where we are, I say compound, that's not a good word. At this point. He calls this convention center and says, Hey, they know you're coming and we gotta go back to now my prison days where they say, We've never lost a federal prison. Well, now the powers that be are, we've done 11,000 warrants and never had a person get hurt. We can do this, It doesn't matter. We're going anyway. Yeah. And it was the wrong call. Right. But you also have to kind of put yourself in a mindset. Now in hindsight, pre Waco, post Waco, if ATF would've wanted to go in there with armored personnel carriers or the FBI for that matter, or anybody else that laughed us out of the room, it just, it would never would've happened. Now all your local police departments almost all have 'em. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and, and that was post Waco. So it, it, it was different. Um, and so we, uh, Speaker 2 00:51:09 It was different, but even more dangerous when you're having to improvise those types of things. You don't Speaker 0 00:51:14 Improvise Speaker 2 00:51:14 Technology and sophisticated, Speaker 0 00:51:16 You know, half of us had ballistic, I didn't have one had ballistic helmets. The other half didn't, half of 'em had level three vests. The other half didn't, you know, I mean, it was just a bunch of us running out there trying to execute a search warrant and trying to go in there because, you know, there was reason to search the pla of all the investigations that were done by non ATF personnel. The probable cause for the search warrant was never in question how it was run. Yes. Because they also illness surprise. And then the idiots, idiot supervisors in ATF that decided to go anyway, decided to lie about it. They try, They thought they could lie themselves out of No, we never would've sent 'em without the element of surprise. We gotta understand we had these little old ladies serving donuts at the convention center that heard all of this. Speaker 0 00:52:01 Yeah. And all of us, all of us street agents were like, Uh, no, Elvis, this does not how <laugh>, that's not how it went down. Yeah. And so they sent us anyway, uh, while they stayed back at the con at the convention center, and it turned into a blood bath. And so, you know, we roll up, um, in our cattle trailers, I, my per particular position, uh, me and two other guys, we went towards the front door. There was dogs, uh, encased, uh, I say encased, uh, inside a fence near the front door. German Shepherds, uh, the first guy opened the gate. The second guy had a fire extinguisher, because if you shoot a dog with a fire extinguisher, they'll run off. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, with little powdered fire extinguishers. And the third guy, which is me, had a shotgun. I was plan B in case none of that worked with the, with the dogs. Okay. And so, and Speaker 2 00:52:54 You were clearing the way for a stick to hit the door. Speaker 0 00:52:57 I was clearing, I was clearing away for the team to come in behind us. Okay. Right. You know, the team came in behind us, we're all geared up to the gills with ballistic everything. And I got a baseball cap on and a, you know, regular old vest and a grade jacket basically. Yeah. And so, you know, we go there and as soon as we hit the front area, um, they opened up on us. They fired first. If they didn't, I'd tell you, but they fired first. And, um, that's Speaker 2 00:53:23 About another, Speaker 0 00:53:23 You know, there was a lot of, of contention on that. Yep. Well, I'll tell you in front of my situation, I was, um, I had to testify in court after all this in San Antonio. Uh, it was, it, it, it just, just for a little caveat, and you can cut this out if you want to, but the courthouse we were in, Woody Herson's, dad killed the federal judge and it was named after his, the federal judge at Woody Herson's. Dad killed. Right. Anyway, I was there for 11 days because Speaker 2 00:53:52 He worked on that documentary a little bit. Really? Speaker 0 00:53:53 Yeah. I, I, I was, because I was the dog guy. If you ask anyone, any at FH, that was there and there a hundred, a hundred of us who the dog guy was, Well that was me. Cuz I saw I was the dog guy, you know. Well, they thought I was shooting dogs and started this thing. So the whole defense was, we started the fire, the gunfight first. And that was me Speaker 2 00:54:13 By firing on a dog on a dog, which you never, never had to do. No. So the German Shepherd, Speaker 0 00:54:19 They, they ran off. Now, don't get me wrong, later on into it, I did shoot one, but we'll get into that. Yeah. But, Speaker 2 00:54:25 But regardless, yes. That the, You didn't launch any rounds. No. And then you knew that they shot the first round because, Speaker 0 00:54:33 Um, well, they shot me. Speaker 2 00:54:35 Okay. Speaker 0 00:54:36 And, um, we were at the front door. Uh, someone I will go past a, you know, they didn't have windows. They had, um, like these, I don't know, which dunno what you call 'em, these tarps, They weren't even tarps. They were like these sacks that were covering the windows that they pulled back. I'm at the front door. Um, I could hear, uh, Vernon house saying, Go away. Go away. He's yelling at us, we're saying police with a search warrant. And, uh, so suck sticks a gun out that window and shoots me in the back. Okay. Now I had a vest on, so it'd hit my lower extremities. Now my wife will tell you I got shot in the ass. Okay. And it's like, you know, the, the, um, Speaker 2 00:55:19 Rick Ricochet from your vest? Speaker 0 00:55:21 No, no. They pretty much shot shot me in the ass. Uh, you know, it's, it is like Forest Gump. I'm still looking for that million dollars. But yeah, I got shot in the ass. And so, but what they taught 'em to do, they had gone out and watched the, the branch of had gone out and watched the, uh, Waco, what is it? Tarrant County, I even forget at this point. The Waco McClenan County. They had gone out and watched them, uh, actually go watch their tactical teams practice. And they knew that he would be running vest. So they either taught him to shoot at the head or at the bottoms. And so for me, I was fortunate they shot me in the bottoms. Speaker 2 00:55:57 That's fortunate. Speaker 0 00:55:58 And for my partner, they shot him in the head and he didn't make it. And so, um, but at that point, it, it was the largest to this day, uh, gunfight in law enforcement history. Speaker 2 00:56:14 Was your partner one of the guys that helped you with the dogs? Was he on the dog team Speaker 0 00:56:18 Too? No, he was on the, he was on another area of the place. Mm. You know, the people that were injured were, were lower extremity injuries. The people that were killed were, uh, mostly head and neck shots. Yeah. Because that's how they taught 'em to go. So when we talk about the FBI's role in that, and when I talk about the FBI's role in that, um, I'm not a bystander, you know, and they inherited a shit storm. I get it. Uh, but atf, you know, this went from February 23rd to April 19th, You know, April 19th was when they started injecting the gas Right. And started and the fires were started. Right. And so when ATF wasn't anywhere in the area at that point, it was the FBI took over based on the charge of assault on a federal officer. The, the assaults on the ATF agents at that point, they determined that we can't keep ATF up front cuz co forbids someone puts head in the window and ATF agent shoots a misco might get even worse. Right. So they backed ATF was very peripheral at that point. Yeah. So the FBI was in charge as they should have been. We, we had our, I mean, we got our dicks knocked down. You know, I mean, it was horrible. Speaker 2 00:57:39 Well, it's, I Speaker 0 00:57:40 Mean, you had, we're a small agency. You Speaker 2 00:57:41 Had no chance anyway. Speaker 0 00:57:42 Right. Small agency. You're Speaker 2 00:57:44 Outside the building and Oh my gosh. It Speaker 0 00:57:46 Was a ATF was there. Oh, it was horrible. At, uh, FBI was there, They had it all, They made the decisions at that point, and it was their decision to inject the gas. But I'll tell you this, a lot of people, you remember Janet Reno? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, A lot of people don't think a lot about her, but I'll tell you this, Not that that woman, you know, she was the attorney general at the time. She goes, you know, because at this time I'm dealing with ATF supervisors that denied a lot of things that wasn't true. And she says, I made that decision. The buck stops with me. I respected that immensely to this day. And Speaker 2 00:58:24 True leadership form. Speaker 0 00:58:25 I did it. I take responsibility. I made that decision. I'm the, I'm the one in charge. I'm the one, I'm the responsible party. Right. The buck stops with me. I appreciated that. But you know, the FBI were in the bat. This has gone on from February to April now we made April. Now we've been the second part of the last part of April. They had to try something, you know, at that point they weren't coming out. Yeah. And so, you know, uh, that's, that's kind of how that ended up. Speaker 2 00:58:53 And I assume you recovered. Okay. Speaker 0 00:58:55 I did, uh, went on for 27 years. I was in Little Rock and I transferred around. I ultimately ended up being a supervisor in East Texas. And, um, you know, it, um, you know, I survived it. And uh, uh, I got to do a few other things. Uh, I was at the Atlanta Olympics in 96 and we were just having a great old time with Infinity Passes. We could go anywhere we wanted. I was on bomb squad because that was my background at that point. Yeah. I was a bomb guy. And, um, working Centennial Park and that damn place blew up. Speaker 2 00:59:29 Well, and those, those are more of the significant kind of stories that come out when people start thinking that you guys are just there to snatch everyone's guns. Right. Or, uh, act like tb, T a c or something like that. Right. Um, right. So that was the Rudolph case. Speaker 0 00:59:44 It was Eric Rudolph and, uh, he had, um, killed a policeman at a, an abortion clinic. Uh, he had, he uh, did the bombing at the, uh, Centennial Park in the 96 Olympics. And then he ran off to, uh, in North Carolina. And so I was on a team that went up and chased him up there. We stayed up there for a long time, couldn't find him. And, um, then ultimately he was found dumpster diving and by a local policeman. Yeah. Speaker 2 01:00:12 Cause you know, lived off the land for, That's it. Speaker 0 01:00:14 That's it. I don't know if you've ever been up in that area, but it's some rugged territory. They call it, they call it nta Hala Valley, because that's like some sort of Indian language land of the noon day sun. Because that's the only time you're gonna see the sun is when it's right over your head. That's how hilly and the gr it is. Bears, you know, we had some agents up there from New York or whatever that Henry spent a lot of time in the woods and they are bears running everywhere. And it was just a, it gotta be a little humorous at times, you know, you gotta laugh Speaker 2 01:00:44 At some. So were you out there basically feel like you're out there camping for a long period of time. We Speaker 0 01:00:49 Were in an RV park. Damn Right. You know, and, um, you know, you'd find a campsite, you know, you'd hear someone most of the time is, you know, what he was doing is breaking into hunting lodges and getting food and stuff out of 'em. And so you'd find someone to say, Hey, I went to my hunting lodge and it's been broken into. And uh, and you know, but those Speaker 2 01:01:08 Are little leads. Speaker 0 01:01:09 Yeah. And so it was, uh, yeah. So I got to, uh, you know, I worked at, you know, that investigation with, uh, with the Olympic bombing. And it was very interesting, uh, that that branched off into, uh, quite a few areas, um, you know, good and bad as far as, you know, the poor kid that they, that that found the bomb, Oh gosh, what's his name? They did a whole documentary on him. Speaker 2 01:01:34 Right. Speaker 0 01:01:36 Security guard. Security guard. And um, he, he tried to do it all right. And they just crucified him, you know, it was so sad. Yeah. And, Speaker 2 01:01:43 Uh, did they do story on Rudolph? Isn't there a like, I don't know about series on Speaker 0 01:01:47 Rudolph? Right. There's something about that. My, I don't watch none of that. My kids tell me, Hey dad, I saw some something on Netflix and you're on it, or whatever. And um, and I gotta kind of ask 'em which incident it was. Not that I'm all that. It's just that at a certain time in my life, I hadn't had a long and distinguished career, but I had a shorten and interesting one. You know, I had a, I just so happened I'd been involved in a lot of different things mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, um, I don't know. I I, I think they did because Speaker 2 01:02:13 They have like a big breast play, giant pecks and, and like a cape and stuff. Your your Speaker 0 01:02:18 Character. Me. Oh yeah. No, I was the, I was the old fat guy with a mullet <laugh> Speaker 2 01:02:23 Character. Not the fat guy with a mullet. <laugh>. You gotta at least knows he got wrapped. Well, come on. Speaker 0 01:02:30 Yeah. You know, it is funny though cuz I did see, I I I, I mean I did see one, one show and uh, and there I am, you know, the guy that played me, which is kind of bizarre, you know, and they always say, you get your 15 minutes of fame. And, um, when I got outta the hospital after getting shot, uh, it wasn't long after. I mean, I wasn't hurt bad at all, you know, what can you do? Getting shot in the ass. And so they flew me home and so I flew home and I got a, I'd connect through Dallas and you understand in 93 there were still newspapers, you know, And so there was every newspaper, you know, there's, there's like this section of the airport that had newspapers from the London Times to Israeli, whatever. I mean the whole thing. And uh, I was on the front page of every paper in the country at that point. Wow. That was my 15, 15 minutes. Speaker 2 01:03:22 That was it. <laugh> Speaker 0 01:03:25 I kinda walked by thinking, well this is kinda weird. Yeah. Speaker 2 01:03:29 You know, this is how, this is not how I plan to get on the front page. Right, Right. Speaker 0 01:03:33 Cause there, well Speaker 2 01:03:34 That sounds like, So as notable as those things are, and those had to be traumatic, so, and we always try to talk about, uh, balance you having the empathy is probably therapeutic in some way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I don't know how you view the d Videon in this day and age. Do you, do you have a sentiment about that whole thing? Is there any uh, Speaker 0 01:04:02 Look, I don't, I don't hate anybody. Uh, I don't, um, yes, I was pissed off at him at the time. I, you know, uh, these people, they're just so broken. I mean, how do you, how do you give up everything that you have in life, including your wife and children to a man, uh, and all your property and all your belongings and go live in this place? I mean, just how, just how, just how beat down can do you have to be. And it's just sad, you know, just thinking of, you know, the potential opportunities that some of these people could have had, maybe would've had, should have had. And the same thing with the Jim Jones thing. With all these people drinking the Kool-Aid and gown. Exact same thing. Speaker 2 01:04:47 So is there some kind of disdain for, I mean, it, it's gotta be something that's hard to fight off. I, I know. So you've got the head of the snake, essentially. Yeah. That is brainwashing. These people leave their families or sacrifice their families in whatever manner. Is, is that where the disdain is focused? Or is there a way that you have learned to cope so that you don't, you say you don't hate anybody. And I believe that and, and I'd like to think I don't either. But it takes work. Sometimes it does. And that has to be, It does. You lost your partner and everything else. Yeah. And to, to have a proper perspective. Look back on that and have, still have empathy for the people that were involved in it. Even though you cite, uh, Correct. As the guy that essentially brought them in and brainwashed them. And there's how do you deal with the, the stress of the, the, of the job that came with the job? Cause a lot of cops don't deal with Speaker 0 01:05:45 Stress free. May I, may I tell you it's a job. Okay. After my partner was killed, I was shot and we went with four guys outta Little Rock. One was killed and three were shot. And I can remember going back in the office after I got, finally got back and the lights were on. They were people doing work and there were people working investigations. And um, I'm like, well, shit, you know, life goes on, I guess. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you know, the old saying of you get killed, they're gonna have your job announced before they bury you. It's true. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you have to take your, you have to take it as a job. It's a job. And for me, what gets me through it is my faith in God, my family and my friends in that order. And that may may not be for everybody, but that's what works for me. And so if I, if I fall back to the point where I let these bad guys, the guys that are doing it wrong, make me want to build a mode around my house, make me want to live a life of misery, then I've let the bachelors win. Right. And I'm not gonna let them win. Right. That's not gonna, that's not how, that's not how I'm gonna play it out. Speaker 2 01:07:13 And you obviously don't mind leveraging other people to lean on them when you need help. You got to brother, this isn't something you do along. Speaker 0 01:07:20 Right. And, and as far as law enforcement goes, I'll tell you, if there's anybody in law enforcement that's listening to this, I'm gonna tell you this, have a good friend base, but have 'em off the job. Don't have, don't have everybody that you deal with be policemen. Um, I have good buddies that are policemen. I have good friends that aren't, and there's a distinction, you know, I have the friends I have, I can count on two hands. I got a lot of good buddies. Yeah. But you got to get away from the work. You gotta get away from it. You, you just have buddies, have friends, have associates, have those that you hang out with that aren't cops. You cannot immerse yourself into shit 24 7. Speaker 2 01:08:08 And I think that's a, a typical way that a lot of 'em associate. Yeah. I mean, having been there because Speaker 0 01:08:13 That's all they trust. Speaker 2 01:08:14 Yeah. It's, they're just, that's they have so much in common. Yeah. They can relate so many of these things. Right. They can tell stories with humor that you couldn't share with someone that didn't understand the context. Right. You know, you hear a lot of that. Yes. Somebody joke about something that's grotesque or just, you know, humiliating to someone else. Yes. But you almost have to laugh at it because that's how you are actually internalizing it so that don't become emotional about Speaker 0 01:08:41 It. When we were in, in the midst of the gunfight at the branch Edn compound, the guy beside me was dead. I'd been shot, uh, I could see another guy hurt pretty bad close to me. Well, prior to this was a Sunday. And so when someone may have asked if we were getting overtime paid because you, you know, federal government never does, if we were getting overtime pay. And they said, no, we, we can't authorize overtime. Pay us too much. And so anyway, during that time, during that shootout, someone hollers out and we're not getting overtime paid for this <laugh> Speaker 2 01:09:12 During the shootout Speaker 0 01:09:13 Because you either gonna laugh or you gonna cry. Right. And laughter's a coping mechanism. Absolutely. Is. And uh, and so that's, you're exactly right. That's how, that's how it plays out. Speaker 2 01:09:24 It's hard to find friends like that. It is. But I totally agree with you. I think that's very interesting too, to be able to leverage somebody that, cuz a a lot of people that really feel like they have so much in common with their cop brethren. Yes. Also, lack of perspective of how the other world works. Sometimes Speaker 0 01:09:42 It is, it's true. And you gotta be able to, to talk to people like that. I agree. But you know, in, in my, in my world, uh, I had to make sure that wasn't law enforcement. You know, I had to get away from that. My kids, I had three kids, three great kids. And uh, they're all better than I deserve. They're all incredibly successful and I love every each of 'em. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I don't know that any of 'em have ever seen me with a gun on. You know, it's just one of those things where I wanted to separate that from Speaker 2 01:10:20 That's not who you are. That's what you Speaker 0 01:10:22 Did. That's exactly. And, and I, and I projected that onto my friends too. Hmm. That, oh, you know, don't get me wrong, you always have those so-called friends out there that they just hang around cuz they think you can get 'em out of speeding ticket <laugh>. But then you have those true ones that now what do you do for a living? You know? And those are the kinds that you should, you know, those are the kinds that I, I gravitate towards. Speaker 2 01:10:48 Yeah. Yeah. Well, and there's just so, you know, I think there's a lot to be said about, uh, people that care about you to actually start sharing some of these, and hopefully we're doing that here. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Because I think it, uh, it represents who you are in, in some of these extraordinary situations that a, that your kids or somebody that's just new to law enforcement or learning about these stories or different perspectives could really learn to appreciate and maybe apply to their lives and be impacted by the fact that you're able to separate this. You're able to maintain empathy and you've gone through these extraordinary events that have helped shape who you are. Cause that they're not who you are. But they've certainly contributed. Speaker 0 01:11:32 Absolutely. Right. Speaker 2 01:11:34 So, you Speaker 0 01:11:34 Know, prior to coming up here, I had a lunch with my son and um, you know, he's in his thirties. He's a great guy. And one thing he told me was that, uh, Dad, I hope you're able to tell him how you respect everybody. Because that's how I like to live my life. Speaker 2 01:11:50 Hmm. Speaker 0 01:11:50 For a dad that's success. Speaker 2 01:11:53 Yep. Absolutely. Speaker 0 01:11:54 That's Speaker 2 01:11:54 Success for anybody. That's success. Speaker 0 01:11:56 I hope so. Speaker 2 01:11:57 Yeah. And I, I think you're a rare bird, but that's why I wanted you here, man. I really appreciate you sharing time with us, man. I'm sure we've Speaker 0 01:12:03 Enjoyed every minute of it. Speaker 2 01:12:05 Thank you brother. All right buddy. And oh by the way, cheers. Hey, did you finish it all? I'm good sucker. Let's finish it now. Speaker 0 01:12:14 Good stuff my man. Speaker 2 01:12:17 See next time. Speaker 3 01:12:17 You bet. Keep on keeping on the cold in needs, caffeine. It's some sideline. You're on another situation. See the road from the stripes with the lights coming on. Freedom came upon a catastrophic dream. Another dark page to turn another situation. Speaker 1 01:12:53 Time and til Speaker 3 01:12:58 The is Speaker 1 01:13:00 Your on til Speaker 3 01:13:03 To the sun. Pass around trees and see which way to turn Speaker 1 01:13:15 To new Speaker 3 01:13:16 Direction. See the road from the side, the way it, it's to, it's another, um, Speaker 1 01:13:58 The cries. Speaker 3 01:14:06 What's, Speaker 1 01:14:11 Don't talk about it. What one can't clean. We'll never know about it. What's Never seen who stand up. You can't come clean. You know what you.