I Sent Him to Prison for 20 Yrs. - NOW WE MEET AGAIN

[00:00:00] Speaker A: And then we had a situation where a robbery took place. You know, the guys ran in the house on us. I said, man, why are you doing this, man? Got nothing to do with you, OG. Ain't got nothing to do with you, man. Okay, man, but you pointing the shotgun at me. Now, you bringing me into this. The next time it happened, I'm there and I'm ready because you done made me a part of this. And so that's when all the shooting go down that night. And the third time, he ran it. And I could hear him. I could hear him in the. Don't go in that room. That's OG Mike room. Don't go. No, not that room. The other room. And the door kicked open. Okay, Now I'm gonna give you what you're asking for. I'm so done. I'm just. Prison politics, the headache, the stress. Stabbings occur there daily. Ass whoopings daily. Man, I'm tired of the environment. It didn't fit. You just score it off. Ton of dope for me. The parking. The parking lot deal, yeah. Yet I seen you in the neighborhoods going down your own coven and Bell's Eye. And then you went around to Morningside and Bell's Eyes court. Why would he need to do. I'm thinking, nah, I never noticed the way this dude walked. I say, wait a minute. Who I know? And I snapped. My nephew worked for the Fort Worth Police Department. He walks the same way always. That right hand is a little bit further. Cause she used to carry on that farm. He carries his firearm up here. He carries his Taser. And I said, man, walk. I say, damn it. T is the police. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Well, it's the land of the grand, home of the brave. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Stay us in the house of the community. Leave them alone. [00:01:41] Speaker B: And what they gonna say with the clear, black man. I never thought I'd be here talking about this today. As most of you know, in a past life, I worked deep undercover infiltrating the Crip Street Gang while assigned to the FBI. It culminated in 51 arrests of violent gang members, as recounted in my book, Life in the Fishbowl. Of those gang members, this particular cat was the eldest by a long shot. But he was also the most endearing and the most intelligent guy in this entire case. We sit down here for the first time after I sent him to prison for 20 years, and we talk about how people fail people. We talk about how systems fail people. And yet he tells a redemption story that hopefully lays the groundwork for other people to follow and find success. And Happiness in life. So, without further ado, please help me in welcoming to the show OG Mike Holt. I'd love to start way back if it's okay, because your story is long because we're both old people now. And were you born and raised in Texas? And tell me a little bit about your family when you were growing up. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Well, where I was born is still kind of mysterious. Now, according to my mother, I was not born in Texas, though my birth certificate indicates such. The story is that she went to use the restroom, and, pow, there I was. I almost drowned in the toilet. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Really? [00:03:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the story. So she. But at that time, we was in Los Angeles, so that is the true. [00:03:41] Speaker B: Birthplace she was visiting in Los Angeles. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it was with family, you know, and then. [00:03:47] Speaker B: So what was the story about how she salvaged you having come out? Did she know she was pregnant? [00:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:55] Speaker A: Well, she, you know, say she was having pains, but she had to use the restroom, so she, you know, she'd go to relieve herself and, wow, man, I popped out, you know, almost. That's why as a youngster, you know, for a little while she's called me Toilet Baby, because, yeah, I just popped out on herself. [00:04:11] Speaker B: How many other siblings do you have living? [00:04:16] Speaker A: Let's see. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Or even growing up this time, you know? [00:04:19] Speaker A: You know. Oh, man, it was always a house full of people. So growing up in. In one house there was six, and then in another house there was six, you know, and then my father went on to have, I think. I think the total is like 41 children altogether. You know, that's, you know, my father's children. Wow. Not with my mother, but with my father. Yeah, he had a lot of kids. A lot of kids. A lot. I have a lot of. Had a lot of brothers and sisters. [00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Is he somebody that you kept in touch with? [00:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, man. I love the man, dude. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And of course, I love my stepfather, too. I always look at my stepfather. He was a great man, you know. Yeah. To me. [00:05:10] Speaker B: So you were. So you were born in la, quickly got moved back to Texas because that was where your mother actually lived. And then you grew up with five other siblings. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:05:22] Speaker B: What kind of household was that growing up? [00:05:24] Speaker A: Well, you know, wasn't a lot of space at first, but, you know, as time went on, you know, we start, you know, gradually going to bigger houses and bigger houses, you know, because, you know, so many kids. [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:37] Speaker A: But, you know, and I always had a lot of cousins around, you know, so we had to have, you know, A lot of space. [00:05:43] Speaker B: Your mom and dad together at this time? [00:05:46] Speaker A: No. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:46] Speaker A: No. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Was your mom taking care of all those kids herself? [00:05:50] Speaker A: Well, her and my stepfather, you know. Okay. I can't. I honestly can't recall a time when I didn't have two parents, you know. You know, my stepfather was always there, but I was years later that I found out my mother was never legally married to my father. You know, though we all, you know, boy's last name. Yeah. And you. [00:06:12] Speaker B: You just assumed because, I mean, the kids. Kids don't know that stuff. [00:06:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But I always knew who he was, you know, but he was. He was not there with us by that time. He had, you know, had married again, had another wife and a whole lot of more kids, you know. [00:06:26] Speaker B: So what part of Texas is this? [00:06:28] Speaker A: This is in Fort Worth. [00:06:29] Speaker B: Okay. In Fort Worth. So what. What kind of experience did you have as a kid? Whether you. Were you into sports and the music, into comics or whatever, kid, were you? [00:06:40] Speaker A: Honestly? I was into guns and animals. I always loved guns because we always had them and we always had dogs. You know, one. While we had dogs, cats, guinea pigs. You know, you think about. You got this in the city. Of course we did. We had, you know, I. I didn't get exposed to other type of, you know, domestic animals until, you know, I would go in and out of the country where my grandmother lived, you know, so. Okay. You know, she had pretty much every animal that you could have on a farm. She had. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Is that where you went shooting and stuff like that? [00:07:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Because my father, he was a gun nut too, you know. Okay. You know, my stepfather always had weapons, too, but my. My. My father, my biological father, man, that man, I had. Oh, he had a good. Good gun collection, you know. Yeah. [00:07:23] Speaker B: What did he do? What did both of your step. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Well, my stepfather, he had retired from some sawmill, and then years later, he retired from TNP Railroad. Okay. And my father, he pretty much as. As I know he. He always had a job, but what he did, I really don't know. But most of the time he worked on a lot of ranches and, you know, he took care of a lot of, you know, wealthy people, ranches and, you know, farms and that type of stuff. [00:07:50] Speaker B: So at what point do you think in your youth did you start dabbling in things that were off course? How does a man with those kind of innocent interests and siblings and everything start fading? [00:08:07] Speaker A: I think, you know, they say hindsight is 20 20, but I think looking back, I. It's really kind of hard to to tell where the veer went off. Because it wasn't something that I just suddenly got into. I gradually got into. You know, they say you running with the wrong boys, but it would always be. It was like my mother would say, hey, you don't need to hang around with them. But they mother would say, you don't need to hang around with Mike, you know, so, you know, it's kind of like, you know, the coming of age thing, you know, you're young, you get, you know, you're mischievous, you start doing things, you know, hey, man, let's, let's, let's get this. I don't do no stealing, but let's. We'll bring it back and for, you know, it. You got it and you keep it. So, you know, you. Like I say, you just kind of gradually got into that. [00:08:54] Speaker B: But what age is this you're talking about? [00:08:56] Speaker A: I had to be. I don't even. I knew I wasn't in double digits the first time I got in trouble. I had to be about. Well, I wasn't even in first grade. You know, by the time I got into first grade. Oh, I was really. I was going in, you know. [00:09:12] Speaker B: Really? [00:09:12] Speaker A: Yeah, of course I was, you know. [00:09:14] Speaker B: So you were kind of. You were kind of in. In a game. That's. But just with your peers. I mean, these are the first graders you run around with. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:21] Speaker B: And. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:22] Speaker B: You know, doing stuff like just stealing from store. [00:09:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:24] Speaker B: Stuff like that or what? [00:09:25] Speaker A: I guess it's kind of like, you know, boys being boys. Yeah, exactly. We, you know, we started to, you know, shoplifting, you know, picking up things you, you know, with every intent to pay for. And then, you know, you playing these games and somebody sticks something in my pocket, you want to walk out with it. You know, it's kind of a dirt thing. So. And. And it actually became something I started doing regularly. Okay, well, if I can do this and get away with it, you know, if you get away with something, you want to try it again and again and again until you get caught. Right. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Especially at that age. Because I think there's a lot of kids. [00:09:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker B: That have that story of I snatched a handful of candy, got them from the grocery store, and mama sees the candy. [00:10:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:05] Speaker B: Like, where'd you get that? [00:10:06] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:10:06] Speaker B: And then they drive right back to the store, you give it back, and you give the humiliating speech. [00:10:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:11] Speaker B: But you were slicker than that. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:13] Speaker B: Even as a first grader. [00:10:14] Speaker A: And. Yeah. And then once I did start getting caught, man, I started getting some of the most Terrible beatings, you know, so. [00:10:20] Speaker B: Well, tell me about that. Like, how does that. How does that start? How does that. How is that also not a deterrent? So, first of all, a beating is relative because all of us used to get whoopings, right? [00:10:31] Speaker A: No, and that. [00:10:31] Speaker B: That wasn't abuse. [00:10:32] Speaker A: No. [00:10:33] Speaker B: You're talking about. [00:10:34] Speaker A: No, this is a completely different thing. See, you know, whipping and a spanking. No, I didn't ever get those. I got beatings, and I mean with a capital B. And, you know, I know a lot of. Even as a kid, I knew a lot of times that was really my mother's frustration being taken out on me, you know, is given to me in the way she would whoop me, you know what I'm saying? The way she would beat me, man, I knew some other things going on. Just didn't. The type of beating she was doing, this didn't require, you know, it didn't require that. But no, also, it angered me, you know, And a lot of times, you know, looking back on, I know this was some of the reasons why I acted out because of the punishment I was given. You know, I've never been spanked by my father, never touched by my stepfather or father, you know, but my mother, oh, man, when it came down to discipline, she was extreme, you know. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Was you like that with your other siblings or did they ever get into as much trouble as you? [00:11:31] Speaker A: No, they. They didn't get in as much trouble as I did, but they, you know, they had their terms, too, you know, when they, you know, would get whoopings. But seemed like when it came down to me, it was always extreme. Always got the extreme end. I can remember when me and my sister, we used to get up the next day and peel my skin off extension cords. You know what I mean? I would be beat just that bad sometime, beating so bad. Even though my oldest living sister now, she. She denies this, you know. Well, you can, you know, if that's her thing, how far we're dealing or coping with that, that's her thing. But the truth of it is, you know, we used to do that. I peel my skin off the extension cards the next day, you know. Wow. Yeah. [00:12:14] Speaker B: And so you think that was part of what. See, this is an interesting point that I'd like to get to the bottom of is some people will experience that kind of trauma and suppress it, like your sister, and move on and say, I'm never doing this again. I got my ass totally kicked. I'm never doing this again. And other people will get pissed off like you did and say, I'm gonna keep doing this. I mean, what makes. What do you think motivates that? Is it the anger from the beating? [00:12:39] Speaker A: I think so. In my case, I know it was, you know, seemed like the more she beat me, the more I'd go do, you know? And a lot of times I would be realizing that if I didn't do it that way by breaking the law, I did it that way by putting my hands on somebody, I'm gonna find me somebody to fight. So, you know, I would relieve my frustration that way. Right. [00:13:02] Speaker B: You know, and that. What else happened during your childhood? Or was there a time where you felt like that you were triggered by anything else? You were assaulted at one point as well? [00:13:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And at what? What? Yeah. [00:13:15] Speaker B: In your life? Was that. [00:13:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I was in my teens then. It was a guy. His name was. Can I use his real name? [00:13:27] Speaker B: You can if you want to. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Okay. Well, his name was R.L. livingston, and they called him Daddy Cool. And I thought he was just the coolest guy, man. You know, I thought he was a cool guy. He was very much into kind of like the black movement thing, you know. I thought he was just a cool guy. He had a place. I want to think it was called the Bias Better Influence Association. I'm almost sure that's what the name of it. And he had a little clubhouse, you know, where you get out of school. Even you wasn't going to school, you could always come there and hang out. It was a place to go, you know, to keep you off the streets. And I want to say it was on my birthday, man, and I found out where he lived. And he. He lived in the neighborhood. I found out where he lived. So one day we over there and he went. Kept buying this brill guy, buying his brilliant. I. I noticed he would go in the room with, you know, take certain guys in his room. Some would come out looking strange, some would come out giggling. I'm like, what the hell is going on? But eventually I got drunk because we drinking this beer, we drinking this coffee. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And you're a young teenager. [00:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I'm a kid, but I'm a. You know, I'm a tough guy, too, you know. Of course, you know, you're a drunk guy. Yeah. You know, and I just remember regaining consciousness. And this dude was attached to me like a. What do you call those? Tank cleaning fish. The little suction. Hey, man. This man was. And I grabbed the man's head. What the hell did you. You know, the Little rumble, I run out the house, you know? [00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:54] Speaker A: And I. I knew then, I always knew something about this guy wasn't right. And come to find out, that's what he was. He's a predator, man. [00:15:01] Speaker B: And you knew. [00:15:02] Speaker A: And you. [00:15:02] Speaker B: You realized by then, too, that you weren't the only victim of his because. [00:15:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Kept seeing. [00:15:07] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right, right, right, right. And that was like my second experience because the first experience happened years before then, and it happened with a doctor. Even to this day, I don't like doctors. I don't like to be touched by male doctors, even though I know he has to do his job. But I don't like being touched by doctors. Even now, when I see the doctor, I prefer female doctors. I'm a lot more comfortable, a lot more relaxed in their presence. And that was a time when I wouldn't even talk about this. I wouldn't even. Wouldn't dare, you know, I kept all that pent inside, and I think a lot of time that too. What motivated me to. To act out. Because for a lot of years, I did not like homosexuals in any form, Right? And you know. [00:15:52] Speaker B: And you can. And you know why. [00:15:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know why now. But I didn't understand then, years later, what changed my attitude about that was that by that, you know, years had passed. But by that time, I had started using other drugs, right? And I end up using heroin. And I just. I never will forget. One day I was sick, man, I was so sick. And I didn't. I was too sick to even try to go hustle and make some money. I was just sick. And I never been a blue colonel. Blue Lincoln. Colonel pulled up, and this homosexual got out the car named Queenie. Well, everybody knew Queenie Booster. I never encountered anybody could steal like this guy could steal. And he took one look at me, say, you sick, ain't you? And I said, yeah, man, I'm sick. He said, well, come on, go with me first. I'm thinking, nah, you got me effed up. So. But eventually he talked me into getting in the car with him. There was another guy in the car with him, too, and he took me to the methadone clinic. You know, rather than taking me to go buy some dope, he took me to the methadone clinic. And that's how I got in, you know, got into the methadone. [00:16:55] Speaker B: What an interesting way to. To change your perspective. [00:16:58] Speaker A: Yeah, and. And it did, because he. He never came at me in no kind of sideways thing, you know, he's real popular. Back there. A lot of people knew him back then, you know, he's a known hustler, you know. [00:17:08] Speaker B: Well, and it was a way for you to distinct make the distinction between a homosexual and a predator. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. [00:17:14] Speaker B: And. And as a young kid, you just don't know how. Were you one of the people that called out, that cried out at that time with thing I know, he ended up getting prosecuted. [00:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:17:26] Speaker B: You went to your mother. [00:17:27] Speaker A: How'd you know? No, I. I didn't do that, actually. I was in jail with a guy I knew who had experienced the same thing. He said, yeah, I mean, I could have been unto you because he. He lived in the neighborhood too. And he said, I could have been untold you about it, man. All you do is ask me, well, who goes around asking if a dude is gay or not? You know? Right. I just always knew something about him. I didn't. I didn't put it in that perspective as he. As he was a homosexual. I didn't look at him like that, but I just knew something was off about him. And anyway, this guy who I was in jail with, he said, yeah, man, you know, he's gonna be going to court soon. I say, for what? He say, for doing that type of shit, man. He's gonna be going to court for that. I'm like, yeah. He said, man, look, let me give these people your name and then you can talk to him. So it end up. I end up going before a grand jury, you know, and, you know, short story long, he ended up getting prosecuted for it. Yeah, well, by that time, I was in prison, you know, for another case. I was in prison, I think, for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, a couple of burglaries, burglary, building or something like that. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Okay. [00:18:38] Speaker A: But I had got sent to prison, and one morning they. Oh, no, I'll take that back. One night they came, told me, be ready in the morning. You going on the bench, Warner? I'm thinking, man. I know other cases. We got all that taken care of. Well, they end up bench wanted me to Potter County, Amarillo. And when I got there, I found out what I was there for, you know, they was prosecuting Ariel Livingston. He had got to change the venue from Tarrant county, you know, because of publicity. It was Mr. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Cool in Tarrant County. [00:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah, Mr. Cool. That's who he was. That was his name. Mr. Cool. That's what everybody called. But he was being prosecuted in Amarillo County. I mean, yeah, in Potter county, but, you know, I never did have to Take the stand on him or nothing like that, you know, nothing. Care. They ain't upset. They had enough. They had enough to bury him on, you know, I never knew how much time he got after that because I never followed the case after that. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah, you were still locked up. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:19:32] Speaker B: And I assume that that combination of events between the beatings and the, the anger and then suppressing some of that other stuff had to be indicative of how drugs came into your life. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:19:46] Speaker B: At what point you, you mentioned that you progressed, the heroin, but what point did you start? How does, how does that play into to your life? What point? [00:19:55] Speaker A: Well, my introductory to drugs was not like everybody say marijuana, Marijuana is a gateway drug. I don't buy that at all because I wasn't introduced to marijuana. I think I didn't smoke marijuana type, probably 14, 14, 15. No, I had to be about 14 years old. But my introductory to drugs was with barbiturates. You know, they had his peel back then. They call them, the name was red devils. Everybody called them reds. It was made by Lily. You had F40s and F42 red. So that was my introductory to, to drugs using that, you know what I mean? So, But I, I, I like the way it made me feel. So. And you know, later on I kind of found, oh, well, that's a downer, that's not an upper. So I had this love for downers. Even though along that during that time I experimented with everything. I probably ate acid and mescaline on a daily basis, you know. [00:20:49] Speaker B: So these are these the same cats that you were just hanging out with? [00:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:53] Speaker B: We're introducing you to that stuff. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I was locked up, actually. I was, I was in a reformatory then. Yeah. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Okay. That's the first time you tried? I was in prison. [00:21:02] Speaker A: In prison. I was locked up. I was in a reformatory. My first. [00:21:05] Speaker B: Wow. [00:21:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:06] Speaker B: So how does that work? How did that work back then? I know now it's so much more sophisticated. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:21:11] Speaker B: But back then, how did that, I mean, how did that first experience occur even? [00:21:15] Speaker A: Well, it was a guy had left on furlough, and when he came back, he brought the pills back with him. You need to try one of these. Okay, I'll try one. And I tried it and I liked it. [00:21:26] Speaker B: How do you pay for that after that? I mean, you get hooked on something like that inside, I mean. [00:21:31] Speaker A: And you know, well, when I finally got out, because I was never officially released, what happened was that I had reached a point where they started letting me Come home on furloughed. And once they did that, I decided, well, I'm gonna take some of this food back and show it to my mother. I need to show her how they feeding us. And when I brung that food back, I could see the expression on her face, something in her change then. So when I went back, you know, and the next time I made a furlough home, she said, I'm not sending you back. And that was, ah. I got my freedom. [00:22:04] Speaker B: And that was it. [00:22:04] Speaker A: That was it. Because it was the, and that was. [00:22:06] Speaker B: No commission type thing, was that. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is, this is pre Gatesville, you know, this, this is before the Gatesville thing ever, you know, at least, at least I hadn't been to Gatesville. It was a place called St. Paul Industrial Training School. [00:22:21] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:23] Speaker A: Ran by a lady named Alice Osmothers. I never will forget it. Used to talk so bad to you. Oh, you. Oh, get out of my flower bed, man. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Really brutal. What year was this? Can you give us an idea? [00:22:39] Speaker A: It was in the 60s, but late. [00:22:40] Speaker B: 60S had to be, right? [00:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah. 60s, late 60s. [00:22:43] Speaker B: Okay, so you were still in your early teens about this time? [00:22:49] Speaker A: Probably. Yeah, I, Yeah, because I think when I, that furlough I went home on. I think I was either 12 or 13 when I finally came. Left that place for good. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. People will say we've. You've come a long way, but I still think there's, There's a lot of struggle with that. And I think now it's a lot more hidden. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Than it was then. [00:23:11] Speaker A: Well, the judge declared that I was delinquent and that's how he ended up sending me to St. Paul. [00:23:19] Speaker B: And so you ended up. Did you end up getting addicted there or you just. [00:23:23] Speaker A: No, no, no, I, No, I, I didn't get addicted there. My addiction came sometime, you know, years later. But that was my introductory, you know, to, to, you know, I seen, I seen them sniffing gas, you know, huffing gas and gluing on. I wasn't really interested in that type of stuff, you know, but. But when I got that pill, that was something new, you know, and, and I liked it, you know? [00:23:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I think most people would. Other than the control factor. [00:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just. [00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I like knowing what it's going to do and, and how long that road ends up being. [00:23:56] Speaker A: Right, Right. So after that, you know, I, I just started, you know, I started seeking them out and. And they had, you know, custom quaalus that came along. Then you had the quaalus and Two and all, you know, So I was doing all this type stuff. Percocet, Perco, Dan and Perk. Anybody, you know. [00:24:17] Speaker B: So, okay, so this brings you into your teenage years. You've already been getting into some trouble. You're talking about burglarizing places. So you're no longer snatching. [00:24:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:26] Speaker B: From the store and people to this and that. Your crowd is. Has already become a crowd of people who've been in and out of the system. [00:24:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:35] Speaker A: At that time, well, I still had a large number of friends that had never been in trouble, but I also had that particular. You know, my core group was guys that had been, you know, had been locked up before. You know, they seemed to be more of my type of people, so. And in one point, there was a time where, you know, my mother said, well, I know what I do. I'll just send him out west. So I end up going to California and I get introduced to this gang and these guys calling themselves Crips. And, you know, I like them. I like the way they moved. I like their style. And they, you know, they. They. They enveloped me, man. You know, they just, you know, took me in, you know. [00:25:16] Speaker B: Right, you're already associating more. [00:25:18] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:25:19] Speaker B: With the troublemakers. [00:25:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:25:21] Speaker B: The straight kids. Anyway. [00:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And. And the way it was all given to me, you know, these. These are. These are neighborhood protectors and all that. And a lot of people never met, took it personally. You know, they talk about him, but he was in our park every day. So, you know, I. I didn't have pretty much. It was no way I wasn't going to meet him. You know what I mean? [00:25:39] Speaker B: Who's the him. [00:25:43] Speaker A: Really? Yes. Yes. [00:25:45] Speaker B: So tell me about that. I mean, that's a historic meeting. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Well, well, you know, at that time, you know, they. They. They was calling me text, because I was coming from Texas, you know, hey, Tex, the text, let's go do this, let's go do that. And I was always gangster, and this is going to be a beast, you know, but as time evolved, then I became from text to Mike, and then it became Psycho Mike, because I would do some of the damnedest shit. Whatever you want to do, let's do it. Y' all playing let's get it done, you know, so, man, that's that name Builder that's kind of puffing, right, Getting that street credit. That's how you. Yeah. And that's how you build that name. And so it wasn't me who developed this. It was another dude who. Who who gave me my name? I had another guy from another set of crypto. He used to call me Twilight. And. And. And anyway, this dude said, I'm gonna show you how to tag your name, and we gonna give you something different. So instead of putting C, I mean, P, S, Y, C, H, O, they would spell it C Y, C O. And instead of using M I, K, E or M I, C, M I, C, C, it spelled Mike M Y, Q. So it gave me a unique spelling, and, you know, so that was my uniqueness that made my individual. So now I have to make this name ring, right? And now I have to make this name ring in association with this set, which was a Trey gangster. So now, you know, now I'm building and I'm building this status and these street creds. And now we got to send you back to Texas, you know, so. [00:27:10] Speaker B: Who said we got to send you back to Texas? [00:27:12] Speaker A: My family. My. My. My aunts and uncles, you know, they like, man, we got to get you back. [00:27:16] Speaker B: They could tell you were. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah, he knew I was out there because he was against himself, you know, like, man, I don't want to see you get, you know, get killed out here. [00:27:22] Speaker B: Your uncle was. [00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. He was already against him. [00:27:25] Speaker B: So how closely did you work with, in terms of. It started out a lot less of a complete outlaw organization. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Yeah, it did. No, no, I didn't really work with him. Work with him, but he was a dude who I would see on a daily basis, you know what I mean? Every time he was in the park, he was at our park all the time, which was St. Andrews Park. Now we call it Gangsterland Park. But he was always, you know, at the park, you know, so I would see him, talk to him. You know, little dude, you know, you gonna be somebody, you know, that. That. You know, that type of thing, so. And then, you know, he ended up disappearing. Well, you know, we didn't know at the time he was. At least I didn't. I didn't know at the time he was locked up, but my brother knew he was locked up. But anyway, I ended up coming back to Texas. That's why I say if you say you from a Trey Gangsta and you live here in Texas, then if you don't know me or know about me, then I question that. I question your. Your. You know, I question your authenticity, and I do it every time. I don't care who you are, how far back I'm gonna question that. Right. You know, because I know my part in that Set, you know. Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker B: Hence your OG moniker. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:29] Speaker B: Because you're bringing that to a brand new location. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:34] Speaker B: So did you do anything to try to establish or carry on any of that set in came back to Fort Worth? [00:28:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, not, not really. Not honestly, No, I didn't, because they was on. When I got back, they was more cool, you know, they was more cool ladies man type thing, you know, they wasn't gangster like that, you know. Yeah. And for a long time I wouldn't really, you know, deal with them. Then I had people in San Fernando Valley. My cousin Joe, he went when out west and he stayed in San Fernando Valley, which is a completely different thing from South Central Los Angeles. Night and day type all the way. [00:29:12] Speaker B: On the other side of town. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:29:14] Speaker B: That's a trek. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And so when he came back, you know, everybody's cool. Everybody got these big afros, you know, So I want to be cool too. So it kind of switched me up. Rather than moving and trying to recruit people for the set and different things, we was doing something completely different. But where I was at in that neighborhood, Berry Hill, we became well known in Berry Hill, you know. Oh, that's them dudes from Berry Hill. They started calling it Boot Hill. Cause you know, we gonna put that work in, you know, so, you know, but then I had the, the gangster friends and I had the, the player friends, you know, and then I had, in the middle, I had a bunch of square friends. [00:29:50] Speaker B: You did still, you still kept some square friends? [00:29:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. I got, you know, I got. Most of my friends are square today because I'm a whole different, you know, it's a whole different. Of course. [00:30:00] Speaker B: Well, I'm living proof of that. [00:30:01] Speaker A: Yeah, of course, of course we're friends. [00:30:03] Speaker B: I got a nerd friend right here. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right. [00:30:07] Speaker B: So that's, that's so fascinating how at, at what point did you move back to Fort Worth? About what stage of your life with. [00:30:13] Speaker A: That, you and your bot? 16, I think. 15 or 16. [00:30:19] Speaker B: 15, 16. Okay. So you were still, you're still a young cat. What's your experience in terms of. [00:30:25] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I never see, I never cared to hang around guys my age. That was never my thing. All my friends was always older than I was when, you know, most, most dudes that were my age, they were still on, on kitty stuff. And I, you know, my, my, my mentality was so far removed from that, man. I was on more adult things, you know what I mean? My girlfriends were older, you know, I Never had a, I may have had one girlfriend my entire life that was my age. All my girlfriend was always older because they always do, you know, they always thought I was older, you know, because I didn't carry myself like, you know, like young cats did at that time. Yeah, you know, a little bit more advanced. [00:31:08] Speaker B: So tell me about the first experience you had. You had a little bit of experience going in and out of the system, obviously. And you had some racist experiences. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:31:18] Speaker B: Some assault of experiences, whether it be home or elsewhere. But talk about the first thing. What, what motivated you to commit the crime that got you arrested. And then tell me about your very first experience in real prison as an adult. Because I'm just curious about how you're so good and expressive about explaining how you feel and the things you see and the emotions that you felt. I'd love to hear your version of that first experience you had. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Well, after, after TyC, you know, I always wanted to work. I always kind of wanted to follow one of my older brothers, James. He was always a, you know, he had been in the streets a little bit but never really got into no real trouble. He was a working dude. He all, he liked to work and dress. That was his thing, working dress. Work and dress. You know, I, I used to always say, man, if y' all could find somebody who could outdress my brother, he got to be a bad dude, you know, because that was his thing, he work and dress. So I wanted to follow in those type of footsteps. Even at the time I got sent to tyc, I had already had a couple of jobs, you know what I mean? I, I, I, I would lie by my age just to get a job, you know. So I was working, I was always working. I worked at, you know, Wise Cafeteria, Piccadilly cafeterias. Always something, you know, dealing with food service. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Were you always hustling on the side or were those where you actually straight for a little bit? [00:32:44] Speaker A: No, there was time when I wouldn't do anything because I was working, you know. Yeah, see, it was always like this with me. Most of the time, if I worked, if I had an income, I didn't have a reason to hustle. See, I wasn't one of those who, you know, I got a job and I do this on the side. If I had a job, I had a job and that's all I was going to do with work. But it's in between those times when I wasn't working and I'm thinking, man, I don't have any. I don't have money to do this. I don't have money to do that. I got to do something. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Okay? [00:33:12] Speaker A: Now I feel like my back is economically against the wall. You got my back against the wall. It's not like I'm not trying to get a job, because I was going there and fill out application at anywhere. It didn't matter. But if you don't hire me now, I'm starting to feel some kind of way, you know, man, I got to do something. [00:33:29] Speaker B: I didn't mean to digress, because you were. I know you were on a trajectory, but I was just curious about that stage if you had a job. So you're at Piccadilly and. [00:33:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I worked. And then I worked at a place called Nash Manufacturer, which was a good job. I liked it. Nash. And I still don't even remember how I lost a job or did I go to another job. I really don't even remember. But I know after my first trip in prison, I ended up going to prison. I had a burglary of a building, and I had a tempted burglary of a habitation. Some guys made a citizen arrest. And years later, I found out that that was a setup. Not the citizen arrest, the burglary part. Because the dude told me, well, come to the house, man. Down there, we gonna play some dominoes. Well, I'm knocking at the door. Don't nobody come to, but I see people outside. Now, who's gonna commit a burger with people, you know, standing around outside, right? So I went around to the back. I'm saying, well, let me knock on. I. I thought I heard somebody, people in the house. So I went around and knocked on the window. Next thing I know, it's a guy on this side of the house with a rifle, a guy on this side of the house with a shotgun. And so I end up getting charged with attempted. [00:34:38] Speaker B: Were they associated with the house or they just neighbors? [00:34:41] Speaker A: They was in neighbors. They were just neighbors. So I end up going to jail for that, you know, but by that time, I think I already had a ver of a building case pending, okay? Not that I was caught in that, you know, fingerprint type thing. They found some fingerprints, and it was my case, you know, it was my case. But. And a lot of times, you know, in the streets, if you get caught, and I'm thinking, I didn't do this, man. So and so did. But you don't tell the people he did it. You know, you take that case. So I end up doing a lot of that. I took a lot of cases for people that I didn't even do. But just that name, you know, that name was associated with that style or that type of crime. So they'll come get me. You know what I mean? [00:35:24] Speaker B: So it does hurt when they think you're doing something and they realize that you've done this before. [00:35:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's hard. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Harder for you to explain. [00:35:31] Speaker A: And a lot that it's Right, right, right. And a lot of times that would anger me so much. I'm like, man, I didn't. Okay, this what y' all don't charge me with. Let me go out and get me one of these cases. This way, when you come get me this time, I know you got the right person, you know, so, yeah, I'm. [00:35:44] Speaker B: Starting to see a pattern, Mikey. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And so I had a friend, one of my. One of my best friends, you know, may rest in peace, his little brother got into a little altercation with another neighborhood guy. And when they. Somebody came, told me, hey, man, dude around there trying to jump on, period. What? Here I go. First thing I did was reach in the kitchen drawer and grabbed a knife. I went around the corner, stabbed the dude up, collapses long. And that went on case two. That's why I say my first time in prison, I had a burglary of a building and assault with a dead weapon. Right. [00:36:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:36:15] Speaker A: So that was my first experience in prison. I didn't get but three years. [00:36:19] Speaker B: You only got three years? [00:36:20] Speaker A: I got three years. [00:36:20] Speaker B: Fortunately, that cat lived, or else I would have been. [00:36:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I've seen him since we've been in prison together. We was in prison together, you know, some years back. So, you know, man, that's a whole neighborhood guy. Yeah, he's neighborhood guy. [00:36:33] Speaker B: So what? So when you. When you're the new boot, like, what's that experience like? [00:36:38] Speaker A: Man, that is horrible. Well, you know, by me, already been in, you know, in that system. So when I got there, some of the guys that was there, I already knew. You know, I knew them, and they knew me. Still. You have to be tested. So somebody going to test you now. You got to think now, at that time, TDC was. You ate what you pick. You follow what I'm saying? You have to go to those fields, you got to pick those green beans, you have to pick that cotton, you got to dig up those potatoes, you got to dig up those peanuts. So what you bring in is what you eat. And of course, you. You picking for that entire place. And then whatever they gonna sell. Then they had. Officers had what you call emoluments, then. So the same thing you picking is going to their houses, too. You know, they have boq, bachelor's office quarters. Then they have, you know, quarters for ranking officers, you know, so. In their families. So you feed them, too? Yeah, man, is. That is the most. It was a book I read some years back called Texas Tough. Man, I do. Gave such a beautiful insight into what that prison was like, because, man, it was just legalized slavery. Yeah, yeah, it's legalized. You got a man sitting on a horse calling you every name but your name. And then we had another field officer. His name was Lieutenant Adams. They called him Screaming Eagle. This is the original. You got some other people, they call it. That's not who screaming is. It was Lieutenant Adams, read her. And he carried a whip, and he never. Now, honestly, I never seen a man hit anybody with that whip, but he could bring it so close to you. And you hear that pow. Fast. [00:38:19] Speaker B: Just having a whip in general. [00:38:21] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, but the horses would bite. You say it's a field squad. Y' all all moving in a straight line. Everybody's on. So you start slacking off, you start lagging, and guess what happens? That horse will bite you. He gonna keep biting you till you catch up with the rest of that squad. It was brutal. And all that was legal back then, you know, I'm assuming it was, you know, legal until Judge William Wayne justice said it wasn't legal, you know, so, yeah, it was brutal, man, at first. That first time in. And of course, it wasn't a lot of stabbing, but it was a lot of fights. Fights every day, you know, fights every day, fight in the field. And that's. You would really want to have a fight, and some people would rather have a fight than have to work. That's just how hard and how brutal the work was. It was brutal, man. It was brutal. Brutal. [00:39:09] Speaker B: That's bizarre. [00:39:10] Speaker A: You know, and all you had to do, you know, because we didn't. We couldn't refer to the officer as. As. As CO or not. He's either. He's either Boss Johnson or he's boss. I never heard the word officer. I never heard the word God. It's. You know, if you get. And have you ever seen the movie Cool Hand Luke? [00:39:32] Speaker B: No, but I know the term so well. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Okay, okay, well, no, it's Paul Newman. Paul Newman. Okay. Yeah. Paul Newman. Burgess Merit, you know, a few other people. George Kennedy, you know, those actors. [00:39:46] Speaker B: It's been a long time. Yeah, I've seen. I wouldn't Remember? [00:39:49] Speaker A: But, but in this, this movie, it's like when you got ready, you know, you tie you to a string on there, you keep that bush. I'm shaking it, boss. I'm shaking. You get ready to take a leak. Need to pour it out, boss. You go take, you know, you go take a piss, you know, you know, need to fire it up, boss. Fired up. Because if he don't say, light that cigarette, you bet not, you know, because he didn't have to do anything. You had what you call a lead row. And the tail roll you got, it's one is on each end of that. That field line or that squad. Squad. No less than 30, 32 man squad. Some squads were bigger, maybe a few smaller, but they was probably guarding squads anyway. In this line, the way it's structured, you have a lead row and a tail row. In the middle is called a swing. Behind the swing is some guys called strikers. They supposed to get everything that you miss. So if you messing up and you keep messing up in that line, that Leroy, that tail roll said, can I have him, boss? You can have him. He finna beat your. You better have some nice hands. Cause you. And you're already exhausted. So they do this every day. He's not tired at all, you know, so you get your ass whipped out. Then when you get back to the building, you have turnkeys who operate the gates and cell block doors. He going to whoop your ass or they going to whoop your ass. And when they get through, then you go into the block. The block has what you call road tenders or building tenders. And the building tender going to kick your ass. So, you know, the whole system was set up. It's just so brutal, you know, so brutal. And the only way that you get out of that, you have to get pretty good with your hands. So. [00:41:27] Speaker B: And yet doing that also often costs you more time. [00:41:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Because you're in fights and something happens, some significant event happens. [00:41:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:36] Speaker B: In that fight, then you catch another charge. [00:41:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:39] Speaker B: And then you stay longer. [00:41:40] Speaker A: And of course, you know, back then you had a whole. This, this is way before Priya, which is Prison Rape Elimination Act. This is way before Prio. So you had rapes going on. You know, all that. That's just prison life, you know, that's what goes on in prison. And, and the gods didn't give a. They don't care. [00:41:58] Speaker B: So you're. So did you feel reasonably comfortable, I guess just because of your experience with the system in general and having a few comrades? [00:42:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't. I mean, you know, you always. At least me, I. And I'm pretty sure everybody experiences who goes to prison or been in and out of prison. You're not. I wasn't uncomfortable. The uncomfortable for me was being in a new place, doing a different type of work. You know, that was my uncomfortableness. But far as being in that environment, I felt right at home. [00:42:35] Speaker B: I can't imagine. Well, I mean, you've gotta assume that the racial segregation still happens. [00:42:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Well, it was extremely racially segregated then. You had black cell blocks, Chicano cell blocks, white cell blocks. Never know they didn't integrate in TDC, I think to 1978. 78, they integrated and they start first, you know, they put, you know, they had to have, you know, two blacks, two Chicanos, two white, two black, two Chicanos, too white. And then they went even further and started making you sell it. Start making you sell with them, you know. [00:43:11] Speaker B: So what. What's. I have two questions I would be interested to know. Since you've been in prison during that era and more recent area era, the racial divide is very unfortunate. Anyway. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:26] Speaker B: Was it easier when it was already segregated or was it easier when it was integrated but still trying to stay segregated within it, if you know what I mean? [00:43:36] Speaker A: It was easier when it was integrated because, see, at one point you had TDC trying to modernize themselves, had counselors, and the counselor would ask, can you be racially integrated, yes or no? If not, then they wouldn't put a person from a different race in the cell with. You just sell with a black person. Wherever you go, you sell with a black person. Now it's on file. I can't. I don't sell with other races. Finally, they did away with that. So, you know, you get what you get. But prior to that, the experience was even amongst blacks, there was always that little racial divide. Still a color divide. Let me put it like that. Because if a dude come in, let's say a guy, my complexion, he may have a little break. A guy lighter skinned. And you see that look who just come in and they gonna holler, fresh fish, new meat, right? And it just goes down the block. Then this dude come in, he gotta be ready. Well, he happened to be light complected, a Smokey Robinson type guy, you know. Yeah, boy, he's in trouble. He. If he don't know how to fight, he better learn quick because they coming. And that's why I say once it integrated, it became better, you know, because that was a point I mean, tdc, you just wouldn't believe. I never forget. They put this white guy in the cell with me, good dude named Charles Graff out of Houston, Texas. And the first thing, well, the next morning they called me to the captain's office. And I'm watching, writing this paper. And he said, here, here you go. I say, what's that? She got damn papers on this boy better not. Nothing happened to him. So he gave me property papers on him. This is my property. But here's the. Over here's the big thing about it. He made it my property because he knew if I. He's my property, he's going to be protected. You see what I'm saying? Whatever happens to Charles got to happen to me. So I'm not going to let you bother Charles. Man, that system was so brutal, man. Yeah. [00:45:42] Speaker B: And so I guess some people actually acclimate in, though to where now with integration. It's not completely segregated, I would assume. No, some people have got to be able to get along. [00:45:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Not. Not in state prison. No, no, state prison is not. And, and, but it is in federal prison. At least in, in the United States Penitentiary and USP it is segregated. Unless you get a white guy who comes in and he's on. Let's say he's on gang time. Say he's a white guy. He come in and he's a Crip or he's a blood. Well, he's going to be in a seal with a black dude. He going to be in a seal with another blood, who's, you know, nine times out of 10 is going to be black. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:46:25] Speaker A: You know. Right. Or he's a white Crip. He'll be in a seal with Crip. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Those are rare. [00:46:29] Speaker A: But. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a, that's an unusual case. Right? [00:46:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, it's a lot of them in that. In federal prison system. There is a lot. But you know, once again, as the racial thing now too, you know, you know, you have. It's broke down more in, in states. You know what I mean? If. If you from Texas, you in a Texas car, so you sit with the Texas guys at the Texas tape because. [00:46:55] Speaker B: You have more in common. [00:46:57] Speaker A: Right. Well, it's just the way the political thing is set up, you know, But. [00:47:01] Speaker B: I mean, it's, it's. But it's run by yourselves. Right? That's not a. That's not. [00:47:06] Speaker A: Well, well, no, you have somebody who speaks for you. You gotta speak on that unit. You have a speaker that has the car who runs the Whole car. [00:47:14] Speaker B: Right, but they're all prisoners. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean. Yeah, yeah. [00:47:19] Speaker B: So, I mean, a lot of it still could be construed as not necessarily segregation in terms of hate, but some of it is. [00:47:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Finding cultural. [00:47:28] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Likeness relations. Yeah, yeah. [00:47:32] Speaker B: That's interesting. That's interesting too. So I understand that. I appreciate you clarifying that. Why that would be better. [00:47:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:39] Speaker B: Obviously integration is better in general. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:42] Speaker B: But, you know, because you. But you still see people self segregated. [00:47:45] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:47:46] Speaker B: Because again, you got cultures that stick together and it's fine. But it's not really segregation. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, no, it's not. Yeah. Because the. The unit and. And the place itself is very much integrated then, you know, you have. I only seen. The whole time I was in prison, in federal prison now. I seen one black guy who was on Native American, Native American, Asian, Pacific Islander time. All those, you know, if you Native American, you know, guys from the island, Asians, you know, that's one car. They all insane. [00:48:23] Speaker B: One lump. Yeah, it's a small lump. [00:48:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:26] Speaker B: Otherwise it's almost. [00:48:27] Speaker A: But it's the same car. But you'd be surprised how many Native Americans are in federal prison. You got a pretty big population. Yeah. Especially in, you know, places that are near. [00:48:42] Speaker B: Reservations. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, near reservations. Places like Florence, Colorado, this lot. Oh, it may be the biggest Native American population there at Florence USP High. And on the west coast at Water Victorville, they got a lot of name. But you have also have a big Samoan and Tongan car there too, you know? Yeah. Which. All of them. All those are together, but you got a lot of them that are crips and a lot of them that are pirou bloods. Yeah. [00:49:15] Speaker B: So do you feel like there are. There are a lot of people inside that have an experience with being assaulted? Young. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:49:26] Speaker B: You do? [00:49:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:27] Speaker B: Okay. [00:49:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Because you know what they say, you know, real recognized. Real and game recognized games. True fact. [00:49:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:35] Speaker A: You know, you can. Yeah. You know, when it doesn't happen to somebody else. You don't even have to tell me. I just. I know. I feel what you feel. I feel that same anger. I can sometimes feel that same shame. You know, I. I know when you've been there and when you ain't, so it's just. I may not know the specifics of what happened to you, but I know it happened. [00:49:54] Speaker B: Of course. And do you think. Not that they're appreciated elsewhere, but do you think that's why chomos are particularly looked down upon and treated so poorly in prison? Because of that populace. [00:50:08] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. [00:50:09] Speaker B: Do you find it ironic to a lot of guys that are the, the Livingstons are also part of the gen pop also? [00:50:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Does that make it difficult? [00:50:19] Speaker A: Well, see there, it's not. They, they won't make it in general population. [00:50:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:24] Speaker A: They don't make it. I'm telling you now, they do not make it. They are man, they pretty much. It's like, it's like, it's like you throwing raw meat to a shark. They would tear him to pieces, man. I don't. Soon as they find out they'll tear him to pieces, man. Once they. And they, they. But they. A lot of times they tell you when you get to the unit, when you get to the compound, they tell you, tell me now if you can't go out there, if you can't walk, if you can't walk the yard, tell us now. And then, you know, oh, I can walk anywhere. And then you go out there and next thing you know he a bloody mess. [00:51:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:00] Speaker A: Yeah. But now they got, they got compounds designated for them. Very few make it. Y' all going to, you know, get there. They got places like Tucson, Arizona, Terry Hut in Dana, you know, so they don't have to, they don't have to worry about that. [00:51:17] Speaker B: Okay. So you go through that prison experience and then you get out and you go in and you get out and you go in. You seem like you've spent a lot of time being the mic that I don't know. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:51:34] Speaker B: Tell me about the time that you got out before the case that we met each other in. Tell me about the time that you got out and what your frame of mind was because you know, we've. [00:51:44] Speaker A: Well, you know, when I got out before I caught the federal case, my whole mindset was just. I just wanted to work, you know, I wanted to give me a job work even, even before then when I got, when I was released from State Prison in 1990, I just wanted to work in it, have a job and just, you know, just, just be square, you know. I finally got it in my head, man, it's hip to be square, man. These people not going to prison, man. Only crooks are going to prison. Only law breakers. You know, it's always that few people who get falsely accused. I met some of those who were innocent as a day old kid, a day old infant. But when I was released that was my goal and I ended up getting a job in 1990 at a place called Regal Ridge Apartments right there on Campus Drive and something Campus and Seminary I got a job there at Regal Ridge Apartments. And I was doing good, good job, you know, I had my place, live, all that. And what happened? I ran into an old friend. And I'm like this, T. I've always been this way. I might make you a promise and I might break it because I've had so many promises broken to me. But what I don't break is my word. If I tell you, I give you my word, man, you got me if you need me. And this dude so happened to was one of those dudes I never forget. He saved me one time. So it was time for me to return the favor. I didn't know what he wanted to do. I didn't care. I'm going to honor my word. And now, mind you, I'm working now. Got money. I ain't doing nothing illegal. Nothing, I mean, zero. Unless you want to call tossing up a 40 and driving on the way home. I'd probably break through all that. [00:53:34] Speaker B: Well, back then, actually, it probably wasn't. Yeah, you know, in the early 90s. [00:53:38] Speaker A: They didn't have that law yet. So anyway, he pulled up one night, he said, man, I need you, man. Man, all right, what you got? What you got? He said, man, I know this place now. Oh, man, I'm thinking, gotta do what I gotta do. He said, look, man, good morning. It's just a robbery, bro. You ain't gotta do nothing. So anyway, we go to this little convenience store, gas station and, you know, he supposed to knew what he knew. And I'm pretty sure at that time, or there was a time when he knew exactly what was laid out in there. But, man, I went in there and pulled this pistol out on these people and didn't know this was one of them stores where, you don't know, change kind of, they gotta. The money come down out a little tube. I don't know if you ever seen that. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, like a little bank. [00:54:23] Speaker A: Yeah, man, give me the money. I'm kidding. I'm giving the money. Well, I'm all day in here waiting for the. Oh, I'm just waiting to go to jail. In my mind, I'm thinking, well, here we go. And sure enough, soon as I get to the car, we was in a white Cadillac. Soon as we leave the place. No sooner we got on the freeway, oh, man, now we're in this high speed chase. Look out the window, I see the helicopter coming in, the disc. Oh, shit. This is over with. So I end up getting arrested again, needless to say, end up with a robbery by threat, you know, so. [00:54:58] Speaker B: So what changed? [00:54:59] Speaker A: And. And then now, wait, I get out again. So I go do that bid, and I get out. [00:55:06] Speaker B: You paroled or you get. [00:55:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm paroled. I'm paroled. [00:55:08] Speaker B: Okay. [00:55:08] Speaker A: I get out, and I'm thinking, okay, here's you another shot, bro. You got to get this one right? So. And I'm with my brother Isaiah. I'm with Isaiah over on the south side, and I'm, you know, I'm filling out all these applications, man. I need you to take me this. I need you to take me here. And I. You know, and I'm like, damn, bro, you got all these cars in the parking lot. Give me the keys to one of these, man. Let me do what I need to do at the time. My sister Sandra, rest in peace. She died in 2008. Breast cancer. So I'm like, man, you gonna get rid of that Cadillac, Sell it to me. Let me get that car. You know what I mean? No, Michael, it don't run right. It don't run right. So. It don't run right. But you give it to your youngest son, rather than selling it to me, you give it to your youngest son, who's with a nice lady and they have a kid. So, you know, that made me feel gypped. No, it made me feel worser than Jip. Why would you tell me that the car don't run right, and it's just me, but you give it to your youngest son, who's with a lady, that they have a child together, if it don't run right, why would you give him something that's not dependable? That's my point. [00:56:23] Speaker B: You just feel like you're lied to. [00:56:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like. No. Feel like I was lied to, you know? Ain't no feeling she lied to me. You know, son really made me feel some kind of way, you know? I mean, like, damn, man, why would you. And, you know, I'm out here struggling, you know, I'm trying to get here and there, here and there. And, you know, needless to say, I ran into some other guys, and, hey, man, you know what you need to do, man. Man, you don't get nothing, man. Come back and holler, I got you. Well, I don't know how he got me, but, you know, I knew the guy, knew something about him, knew something about the crew he had with him. [00:56:58] Speaker B: Just trying to get a. A ride. [00:57:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm just trying to. Yeah, I'm. Yeah. And I'm trying to get a job. I want A job, man, you know, so anyway, I go talk to him. Hey man, things ain't working out, bro. And I need, I need to get out my brother's house, man. Not that he pressing me or anything, man, but I just, I just need to go, man, you know, I got, I got. He said, well, look, this is how this work. Now, not that one crack wasn't around in 1990s. I was well aware of it, but when I got out, I'm looking at. He said, just watch. I'm just sitting in the car and watch this. So I'm watching this traffic, watching how this is moving. And I said, man, they making money, man. You see, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Look, I'm over sitting. So needless to say, there I go. I'm in the drug game now, you know, that was my way in. And once I got in, I started some getting all this money. I can't spend all this money instead of getting money instead and getting money, money, money. So, you know, I'm a job. I got one. I sell crack. Yeah, I sell X, I sell heroin, I sell potter cocaine. [00:58:06] Speaker B: Without the thought of where the consequence. [00:58:09] Speaker A: Well, well, you know, I used to tell certain, you know, I have certain customers like, man, come on man, let's keep this moving, man. I mean, I'm trying to get the man keep this. I'm out here taking a penitentiary chance. So I'm well aware I'm taking a penitentiary chance. But here it is to my way of thinking, let me calculate what's going to happen if I get caught, how much time I'm going to get. Can I do the sentence? Da da, da. See, I'm thinking this way. Job is not even thought about. No, I have a job. I'm a crack seller, you know, just. [00:58:36] Speaker B: Prepared to pay the penance. [00:58:38] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Because now that's my mindset. I don't even want a job now. And now I'm pissed off. I didn't feel like society owed me nothing. Let's not get that part wrong. It's just that for whatever reason, I'm not being hired, you know, So I don't want to be hired now I got a job. You know, that's. And that's, that was my mindset. That's how I felt. [00:58:57] Speaker B: How long did you give, how much of a breath did you give yourself to try to find a job? Or did this just kind of fall in your lap before you gave yourself enough a chance to get. [00:59:09] Speaker A: I really never stopped trying until I started selling Dope. And then I just stopped. I'm. I'm not. I'm not trying no more. My hand getting cramped. I would take, you know, two or three applications from this place, two or three from that. You know, go to an interview, wait on a second interview, I'll call you. And, you know, I'm sweating the phone, just waiting. And it just never happened. It never developed for me. So. [00:59:35] Speaker B: And this was. At what point. What year was this? [00:59:37] Speaker A: Do you know? This is 2003. Four somewhere. [00:59:42] Speaker B: Okay, so this is what, five? Yeah. This led up to our case. [00:59:47] Speaker A: Right, Right. Yeah. And that. That led up to. [00:59:50] Speaker B: Didn't you have a job, though? At one point there, you had a job and lost it or something? [00:59:55] Speaker A: No, what I was doing, I was actually working with a childhood friend of mine. He had a lawn service, you know, so I was working with him for a while. And this. This was another deterrent, another thing that crushed me, man. I couldn't. If I could have expressed to this lady how that made me feel, man. Every time I think about that, I still feel that bad feeling. I told her I was so happy to tell her, I got a job. I got a job. She said, oh, you got a job. Bring your check. Still, I said, no, he pays in cash. It's long service. Da, da, da, da, da. You know, people pay him, and I work for him. No, Mr. Holt, you gotta get a job that has a check. Stubborn man. I just. Just let all her out. My. Just killed my enthusiasm. Everything, you know, I'm like, all right, I see where this is going. So once again, I'm. I'm crushed. So I know what to turn to is, you know, it's easy to find your way back to the streets. You know, I've known that all my life, of course. [01:00:54] Speaker B: Well, that's why I wonder, you know, the easy way out, especially when you're better at that. [01:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Than you are. Yeah. [01:01:01] Speaker B: You know, holding it down straight. When it's up to get a job, it's got to be even tougher to get a job. [01:01:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:06] Speaker B: Been in and out of the system. [01:01:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:08] Speaker B: So. And tell me a little bit about how that operation went. I mean, because this ain't my story. This is your story. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you know, as far as operation, when I kind of, like, stepped into that investigation, it was already kind of in play. Yeah. You know, when. When I came along and that was, you know, 2005. Yeah. [01:01:34] Speaker B: Six and seven. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:36] Speaker B: So it's around that time. So you had kind of dabbled before, but. [01:01:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, you were. [01:01:41] Speaker B: You had just gotten out. I mean, it was pretty clear to me. [01:01:44] Speaker A: You just got. Yeah. [01:01:46] Speaker B: Our listeners. This is a case where. Yeah, I was working undercover. [01:01:49] Speaker A: Yeah, we're working with the. Yeah. With those guys. Yeah. Yeah. With that crew. Yeah. And. Yeah, I just kind of. I don't know. I don't know, you know, because I. And then I had reached that point. By the time you came along, I was really at a point where I was wanting to do something else. It was. It was the. You know, it gets hectic. You know, the. The monotony, the. You know, always got to keep it sharp. It's like one I never forget. One day, these guys came by, and they like, hey, man, if you don't mind, man, he's jumping around, grabbing his crap, man. I need to pee, man. I got to use the bathroom so bad, man. Can I use your bathroom? I said, hell, no. Come on, man. I already see it, bro. I see you. I see your partner. I see the car. Come on, man. Your play is already busted. Cause, you know, if I have to, I kill all y', all, man. Won't give it a second thought, you know, so you. Oh, no, man. I really want. But anyway, they got in the car and drove off in the. Guy, I. I'm pretty sure you met. This is one I guys down there. Cousin. So I'm like. He's like, man, I'm sure glad you said, Mike. I know that dude, man. They jackals, man. He said, I already know it, man. I seen him when they pulled up, before he even got out the car, man. I already read them, man. [01:02:59] Speaker B: You know, Way too street smart to be taken. Yeah. [01:03:02] Speaker A: Come on, man. As they say, I'm too old of a cat to be fooled by a kid. You know what I mean? Come on, man. So. [01:03:08] Speaker B: Which is part of the ironic part of this whole thing is that even then I could tell how much more articulate. And you're. You're a smart guy, and yet you were by far the oldest dude in the. [01:03:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:03:23] Speaker B: I mean, by a long stretch, you're 10 years older than me. [01:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:28] Speaker B: So. And I was pretending to be 10 years younger than I was. [01:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:34] Speaker B: So it was. You know, it was part of the perplexing thing. You know, you always expect you may have some. Some young cats in this. You know, Most of these cats were all in their mid-20s. [01:03:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:45] Speaker B: Between 25 and 30, most of them, probably. But you were in your late 40s around. [01:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was damn near 50 years old, I think probably up under me. Had to be the guy on the tree. Two of the. Two of the three guys under the tree were late. 38 maybe. Maybe. One may have been 40, one, may have been four. [01:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah. There was, like, a little. There's several operations going on here. We're trying to navigate this without just outing a bunch of names. [01:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:04:21] Speaker B: But there were. That's why there were a couple different operations. And. And some were actually older cats. [01:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:04:28] Speaker B: And I say older, but they were like my age at the time. [01:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Which, again, but a lot younger than me. Yeah, yeah. [01:04:35] Speaker B: Still. And for that game, I mean, it's dope. [01:04:38] Speaker A: Yes. [01:04:39] Speaker B: But so much of that thing was Crip. [01:04:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:43] Speaker B: And so everybody there was associated. [01:04:45] Speaker A: Yes. [01:04:46] Speaker B: And so to me, it was confusing a little bit that you were so smart. You could tell that you were an experienced guy, and. And I, you know, I still had an affinity towards you. [01:04:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:04:59] Speaker B: Not as much as I do now that I know you. [01:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:02] Speaker B: Because it's even better than I thought. But it still perplexes me why you would get back into such a young man's game. [01:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:10] Speaker B: Because you're not a young man anymore. And. And I know that's where your mind is now, but was there anything that just intuitively taught. Told you just to. Man, these. These fools are still playing this reckless game of cripping and doing. [01:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I thought that a lot. But, you know, the factions was like this. You had those who wanted to be all about business and those who wanted to bang, and you can't mix that. You really can't. You can't. You can't mix gang banging and dope selling together, because you out there trying to sell dope or in a house, trapping. However you doing it, you still got to be conscious of. Here's a red flag coming. Oh, these are bloods, you know, so now you can't. How do you. How do you. You. You have too much to think about. [01:06:07] Speaker B: That's interesting. [01:06:08] Speaker A: You know, it's too much to think about. [01:06:09] Speaker B: That's interesting because there was also cats in that case. [01:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:12] Speaker B: Who ran a lot of the Crip sets. [01:06:15] Speaker A: Right, right. [01:06:15] Speaker B: A couple of the Five Deuces. [01:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:19] Speaker B: That ran the Crypt. Stuff like a business. And they might say even the same thing about gang banging versus running a dope game. [01:06:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:30] Speaker B: You know, because I know a lot of it has to interchange, but I think it does. Maybe what you're describing is. Is the. The younger kids, which is probably the same way now. [01:06:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:40] Speaker B: I mean, there's Still, Crips and Bloods is. Call them something else and. Yeah, whatever else. [01:06:44] Speaker A: But. Yeah. [01:06:45] Speaker B: When you start going nuts and trying to prove yourself, like did with. [01:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:06:51] Speaker B: Then it draws undue attention. [01:06:53] Speaker A: Yes, it does. [01:06:53] Speaker B: Then you got issues there. And you. You don't have cats that are, you know, astute and have experience and can stay out of the limelight and run their business. So that does. That an accurate representation. [01:07:05] Speaker A: It is, it is. [01:07:07] Speaker B: So you started feeling like, man, I. You started having second thoughts about even in it. [01:07:13] Speaker A: Even though I knew some. You know, you gotta think in that mixture. You got five Deuce, you got four trey, you got Grave street, and of course you got eight trey. So. And then we had a situation where a robbery took place. You know, the guys ran in the house on us, me and another guy one time. And I really sat back. I was letting him do it. I didn't care. Cause he never pointed. His mistake was that I said, man, why are you doing this? You know, the wild man. Why are you doing this, man? What are you doing, man? Got nothing to do with you, OG Ain't got nothing to do with you, man. Okay, man, but you pointing the shotgun at me now you bringing me into this, man, please point the gun somewhere else, man. He wouldn't do it. I say now. Okay. [01:08:01] Speaker B: But he's also smart not to do it because. [01:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so the next time it happened, well, I was there. I'm. I'm there and I'm ready because you done made me a part of this. [01:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:16] Speaker A: And so that's when all the shooting go down at night. [01:08:19] Speaker B: Which also speaks to the insanity because. [01:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah, for. [01:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah, for people who don't know these stories, this is a dude that robbed the spot you were in, right? Twice. [01:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:29] Speaker B: That much of a crazy and an idiot. [01:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:32] Speaker B: All into one. [01:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And the third time, he ran it and I could hear him. I could hear him. And don't go in that room. That's OG Mike room. Don't. Now, not that room. The other room. And the door kicked open. Okay. Now I'm giving you what you're asking for. [01:08:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:46] Speaker A: And that's how, you know, that happened, you know? Yeah, that's how that happens. [01:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And like I said, I can. I can only imagine the amount of stress. I always wonder about anybody running a criminal enterprise at whatever level. It just seems like. Especially when you're. You're running Crips and you have a really well run organization on paper. [01:09:08] Speaker A: Right. [01:09:09] Speaker B: But you have so many other people that can mess it up for everyone. [01:09:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:13] Speaker B: So can you. For. For the sake of our audience, can you explain. When you say you've got four Trade, Five Deuce and all the different sets, can you explain kind of where those originated and how they end up in that area, what that actually means to somebody who doesn't know about gangs? Just give me a layman's version of that. [01:09:33] Speaker A: Well, actually, those are four different sets. And of those four different sets, there's a little color difference. Let's say Grape street, they use purple. We represent that set, which originated in Watts, California. All right? Then you have Hoovers, which actually was a gang before they became Crips. They were original Hoover Groovers and, you. [01:10:02] Speaker B: Know, Hoover street and. [01:10:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Southern. Yeah, Right. Okay. Then again, California. And. And they was converted. It was already a big gang, the Hoover Groovers, but they became Crips and him and some other people, too. One just took it by itself. But so. So that became a gang. Then you had for trade, but before Fortray Gangsters, you already had Fortray. You had Fortray Hoover, and then you had Fortray Avalon. [01:10:35] Speaker B: Well, how do you distinguish that to somebody who knows you're talking about somebody you say Fortray to, and they're like, what is a four tray? Well, you're talking about street. [01:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I'm talking about street. 43rd Street. Let me. Let me just say 43rd Street. [01:10:49] Speaker B: Right? So 43rd Street street turns into four trays. [01:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That becomes. Same way with five deuce. That's 52nd Street. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Right. [01:10:55] Speaker A: You know what I'm saying? Eight trade. That. That is actually a street. 83rd street, you know, but it's usually. If you see it tagged, it's usually tagged E.T.G. a trey gangster. Okay? You know, same way with Grape Street. You know, even. Even the way they. The way they do. They. Gang sign, it looks like this, but this is a grape. Either way you turn it, it's a grape. And it resembles east coast, though. East coast is like this. This is open now. There's a sea. You know, I'm saying East Coast. That's Grape street. Right? You know, so it's a little. It's. You know, everybody has their own way of, you know, flashing a gang sign or showing what set it is, what it comes from. Okay? The main thing, even if you miss what it is, you should be paying attention because all Crips don't get along. The biggest killer of Crips is Crips. Right. [01:11:41] Speaker B: You know, this is because they're by far a. [01:11:44] Speaker A: A bigger right Gang, Yeah. [01:11:46] Speaker B: Population than the Bloods, but. [01:11:48] Speaker A: Right. Always. I. I don't care. It's almost nowhere you can go where Crips don't outnumber Bloods. That don't make them soft, though. They just much gangster as you are, you know, of course, but, you know, but you know, that's. That's. That's the way that breakdown, all that came out of coming out of California. There was no Crip sets. You know, that is dumb motherland. That is right. That is where you pay homage to always. [01:12:13] Speaker B: You know, and then it transferred around the U. S like you. [01:12:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it was exactly a weird story. [01:12:20] Speaker B: Moving across the country and within the prison system and stuff like that. [01:12:23] Speaker A: And then. Yeah, within the prison system, then you have gangs that are, you know, born in the prison. You know, they, they, they. Not from the streets into the prison. They started in prison and went to the streets. Right. You know, and of course, I know a lot of them too. Pretty much. You know a lot. I know a lot of. They, you know, they founders. [01:12:41] Speaker B: You know, the tango. [01:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, Tango is probably one of the most loosely. [01:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, because it started in a prison, it's gonna be. [01:12:52] Speaker A: And the word tango is actually an acronym. It means Together against negative gang organizations. And a lot of Tango blast. They don't even know that. But that's, you know, I. Like I said, I know these founders. [01:13:06] Speaker B: You know, they don't manifest it, that's for sure. [01:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah, no, no, they don't. They. They have become, you know, quite a entity. They said so. [01:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So we had some. We had some time together where we were both working in professional environment. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Right. [01:13:23] Speaker B: I would say this is a long time ago. [01:13:24] Speaker A: Right. [01:13:26] Speaker B: This is over 20 years ago. [01:13:27] Speaker A: Yes. [01:13:28] Speaker B: And, you know, I was just trying to collect. Collect gang members and. And you ended up getting tied up into it. We did a handful of deals together and there's a bunch of other people. So you want to talk about the experience and what, what you felt when stuff like that was going down. Because I still. The one thing that I remember specifically about from my perspective was in my mind what I knew about certain people I already knew. It was obvious to me who is going to be a real problem if they get out or don't get put in. [01:14:05] Speaker A: Right. [01:14:05] Speaker B: And. And the ones that I. I really had an affinity towards, I thought, man, this guy probably has something. They're, you know, it's not like a ton of them. I thought because all this. A lot of those youngsters were crazy. [01:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. But. [01:14:19] Speaker B: And there Were some people that I thought, man, I think I hope this guy gets, you know, the lightest sentence. But my conundrum was once my part was done, I had almost no control. I could do is, you know, beg the, you know, Assistant U.S. attorney who also doesn't make the decision. [01:14:36] Speaker A: Right. [01:14:37] Speaker B: And then it depends on what judge you draw and all kinds of stuff. So once it got past the roundup and we round up, we were talking about rounding up, you know, ultimately 51 people. Yeah, out of this. Yeah, out of this neighborhood. Started in the neighborhood, which is kind of where your spot was. [01:14:53] Speaker A: It was. [01:14:54] Speaker B: But it, but it expanded outside that neighborhood and ended up being a bunch of Crips. Go down out of this based on the dope. Because obviously I know there's some white Crips, but. [01:15:03] Speaker A: Right. [01:15:04] Speaker B: I would be the whitest Crip in history. [01:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:15:08] Speaker B: So I can't lay claim of that. Right, right. So ultimately your situation was one of the more disappointing to me only because I didn't want to see you do the time that you were initially assigned. Can you talk on that? Just how you felt from your perspective, how your case kind of ended up, well, coming to be and stuff like that. You talk a little bit about that. [01:15:33] Speaker A: Well, you know, I knew, I knew. Let me take that. Before I even say that. I didn't know so much talking was going to go on. I didn't know. Once we're all captured, we all rounded up. Now I'm start thinking, okay, how do I do this? What can I do to try to make my sentence lighter? Because I already knew I'm going to get hammered. The oldest person with the longest criminal history and a lot of that history is violent crimes. And that's what they gonna look at that violence. [01:16:12] Speaker B: Especially the feds. [01:16:13] Speaker A: Right, right, especially the feds. So I'm thinking, well, here's the best thing. And I had talked to a few of the guys about, look, this is the best thing for us to do, man. We are going against the federal government. If you want to go to trial, go ahead. I can't afford to, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead. But here's what I suggest. I suggest you try to find out what your guidelines are and try to get the less thing you can get. Just keep your mouth shut while doing it, that's all. Well, once not around me and you lose that influence and you get around some of these clowns is what I call them, man, I get ass up. I ain't nowhere in the world I Take all that time. But wait a minute. You did it though. Now you can't always deal with your own culpability. And whatever you do, whatever the crime is, if you out there, you playing gangster. So let's just see how gangster you are. And then once the talking started, then it's the snowball effect. Now everybody wants to talk. Man, you ain't been talking. Don't talk now. And then some of these dudes supposed to been so tough and so hard, they start talking too. So you can imagine what the so called underlings would think. Well, man, my big homie talking, I'm gonna talk too. Oh, no. Right on. Cause I never knew, but nobody was talking at all until a guy came from Mansfield over to fmc, Fort Worth Jail unit and say, hey, man, I'm gonna tell you something. He said, oh, you OG Mike? I said, yeah. He said, man, and I already told them dudes, man, that you ain't ain't from the hood no way. Y' all not from that hood say, man, get ass up. Tell it on. And you know that. Now, I just called the guy's name, but anyway, I'll bleep it. Okay. Anyway, you know, the guy says, well, if that's what he gonna do, then I'm gonna do it too. He gonna try to give me up, I'm gonna give him up. So, you know, it started that war between those two guys, you know, the back and forth, the phone calls, the threats to this, the that, you know. [01:18:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:31] Speaker A: And that even leaked out into the streets, you know, where it was a bunch of, you know, even though y' all may not have knew it then, but it was a bunch of shooting went on behind. A lot of shooting, you know, went on behind that, you know, it just. It didn't get reported as that. [01:18:46] Speaker B: I was almost one of them. [01:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, but that's exactly what was happening, you know. And, you know, when we all in jail, we looking back on, he was like. And I told him, I said, man, I told the guy, I said, man, I knew it was something strange about the dude. He said, why you say that? I said, y' all didn't see this but twice I had seen you. You was in the blue Mercedes and you was at the fina, and you got. And I said, man, I never noticed the way this dude was. I never seen him. I say, wait a minute, who I know? And I snap. My nephew worked for the Fort Worth Police Department. He walks the same way always. That right hand is a little bit further because you used to carrying that farm. He carries his farm up here. He carries his Taser. And I said, man, walk. I say, God damn it. T is the police. The next time I seen you had just left our corner from scoring, and you went around the corner and scored from them. So I went. I said, man, well, y' all just. Oh, y' all just don't want him sealed. Oh, y' all trying to. Y' all think we trying to take y' all customer. That's all y' all know. But they don't realize my mind. I said, man, this man is making Casey's billing. Casey's bill and Casey. [01:20:03] Speaker B: So you. You. Earlier on, before I came out, right. Undercover, you were already kind of thinking, oh, man, on stage, something's messed up. [01:20:11] Speaker A: It didn't fit. It didn't fit. You just scored a ton of dope for me. The parking. The parking lot deal. [01:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:20] Speaker A: Yet I seen you in the neighborhood scoring down here on Coven and Bell's Eye. And then you went around to Morningside and Bell's Eye scored. Why would he need to do. I'm thinking. Nah. [01:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:33] Speaker A: Because now I put together the walk. It's all coming together now, but, hell, it's too late. [01:20:38] Speaker B: Any guy walks like a dork. What are we doing? [01:20:40] Speaker A: It's too late, man. [01:20:41] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and. And you can, you know, explain that. That there were two blocks in the main area. [01:20:48] Speaker A: Right. [01:20:48] Speaker B: And. And it was distinctively different. [01:20:51] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Yeah. [01:20:52] Speaker B: It was good dope. And it was crap, though. [01:20:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:20:55] Speaker B: And so the idea that you would see that. [01:20:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:58] Speaker B: And then see somebody go by from one and then the other. That's why that would be suspicious. It's also run by two different spots. [01:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:21:06] Speaker B: So from your perspective, that would make sense. And for an audience that doesn't know any of this stuff. [01:21:11] Speaker A: Right. [01:21:11] Speaker B: That's kind of why that would look suspicious. [01:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:13] Speaker B: And of course, I always had my reason. [01:21:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:15] Speaker B: I also knew going over here, and I don't know what instance you're talking about, if necessarily if. If maybe I went to one spot and asked if so. [01:21:24] Speaker A: And so was here, and. [01:21:25] Speaker B: And it might have been not even buying yet. [01:21:28] Speaker A: That could have been what it was. But, see, you didn't see me that day. I was coming through the park, but I was walking the dogs, you know, so we had all these pit bulldogs. I'm walking the dogs, and I seen you. I knew you were scoring from somebody, but you went around the corner and then scored from under the tree. It didn't make sense. [01:21:48] Speaker B: Trash, dope, all of A sudden. [01:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it didn't. Yeah, it didn't make sense. And I'm like. Everything is falling in place. But, yeah, by the time, you know, you try to tell, oh, man, what's going on, you just. Y'. All. We think we trying to take y' all customer, man. Da, da, da. Okay, man, you whatever you want to think. But then years ago, the hammer comes down. We all arrested, we all in jail. And then, you know, to kind of fast forward that. Now here I am in prison, but this case is always on my mind, because even when you trying to, you know, not thinking about it, somebody else has something to say about it. You know, they have something to say. So, man, you. You. You hear about Operation Fishbowl? Yeah, I know. And then somebody. Oh, you OG Mike, you was in Operation Fish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But one night I'm laying there thinking. I'm. You know, sometime, you know, when you in prison, you in a cell, you got a lot of time to reflect. So. And I'm just thinking about all the times. How many good cops have I known? Not many. I know a lot of bad cops, very bad cops. And then I'm thinking, how many? Well, that was a guy when I was a juvenile named Chico Pettis. Good man. Good man. Then that was Blaisdell and Canfield. They called him Batman and Robin. Oh, man, that was some of the crookedest. Damn. You know, work, burglary division. And then I thought about, well, here's Bloodwater. Now. I've been arrested a lot of times in my life, and I always go to jail. I mean, you know, there's no conviction, but, you know, they should. I remember one time, just to put this in, to give it some perspective here, one time, I was arrested three times in a row. Back then, you go to the city jail, 1000 Throckmorton. You go to 1000 Throckmorton. At 1000 Throckmorton, you held up for 72 hours. If they let you go, then they didn't press charges. One time, they did that to me for nine days, they let me out, and as soon as I got to the corner to catch the bus, they arrest me again. Three more days. Let me out. Arrest me again. Three more days. Yeah, but they never filed in the case. Just, you know. But you had to go through that in order to get to 300 west bail. Now, which was the case together. Yeah. Which was old county jail back then. [01:24:11] Speaker B: Right. [01:24:12] Speaker A: But anyway, one night I'm in the cell, and I'm just thinking about. All I said man, all the times I've been arrested, convicted, or whatever, nobody never walked up to me and reached out their hand to me and say, mike, I'm sorry, man. I was just doing my job. And I think about that all the time. You know, sometime it. I get a little emotional thinking about it, because nobody never told me that, man. And the things, man, that you done for me and some of the things that you exposed me to, showed me, told me. I just don't get that. I know I have rescue issues. I want to save everybody, but I have trust issues that are just as powerful. Right. And I don't trust a lot of people. I really don't have a reason to. You know, I mean, in. In my life, in my lifestyle, you know, it's kind of like there's a saying that goes, if you're not in my set, you're not my friend. You. You know, so. And. And I've lived by that for a long time, you know? I mean. Yeah. Even though we might be cool, we might be all right, but I know you really ain't got my back. [01:25:26] Speaker B: Not all the way. [01:25:26] Speaker A: Yeah, you ain't really got my back like I got my back. Back like he got my back. You know, you ain't gonna take a bullet for me, but I know some guys that will. Yeah. You know, I know some. Right to this day, you have to shoot them in order to shoot me. And you may not get a chance to shoot them. They're a little bit quicker on the trigger than I am, you know, but, you know, I had just, you know, looking back at that. Nobody had never told me that. And that led me to. I need to find this dude, man. I need to find him. I need to find him and tell him, man, thank you, man. Cause nobody never did that for me. So I started this search. I'm like, come on, Mike. Quit playing, man. You know some street people and, you know, a few squad people. Find him. And sure enough, I had a friend who found you. He mailed me the address, so I said, I'm gonna write this, man. Of course, I knew it wasn't your home address, but, you know, they found you. That was the first place you was at, you know, that place downtown, wherever it was. [01:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it was my. My office. [01:26:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because I know you. I remember you writing. Tell me, you know, you need to write here, because I'm changing from this address. I'm gonna be somewhere. But anyway, I wrote the letter, and I just wanted to express that to you, man. You know, I appreciate that. Nobody had never told me that, man. You know, and that, that, that gave me a. And, and you know, I like, like, I say, I got a friend. He'd been there since 1990. I told, I told my guy from Grape Street. I told him, I say, man, you know, man, this dude told me that. He said, man, you bullshit. I said, nah, bro. Man actually walked up to me and apologized for sending me to jail. Well, we laughed about it and joked about it. He said, man, you know what though? I thought about that, Mike. That's got to be a genuine good dude, man. He said, you need to write him, man. He gonna hit him. I said, I already have. You know, by that time you had rolled back and you know, the book was being, you know, done and all that, and they wouldn't let me have a book in the state. [01:27:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I noticed. Send you the. But you requested it. Yeah, three or four different times. I still got. I even kept them. [01:27:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:29] Speaker B: In their same rejection. [01:27:30] Speaker A: Right. [01:27:31] Speaker B: Mail. [01:27:31] Speaker A: Right. [01:27:31] Speaker B: So that you would eventually see them. [01:27:33] Speaker A: You know, it's always. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna even use the term crooked, because this is not a crooked co. But there's always somebody like you enough and trust you enough. And he said, man, you know what? I'm gonna get that book for you, bro. [01:27:46] Speaker B: Oh, good. [01:27:46] Speaker A: I'm gonna get that. So that's how we end up getting it smoked. [01:27:49] Speaker B: It's ridiculous that they wouldn't let you have it in the first place. [01:27:51] Speaker A: They said because of the pedophile guy. They say because they said how it had. It had gang information and information on a sex crime. Yeah. And on the guy that, you know, that had the 14 year old girlfriend. Him. [01:28:08] Speaker B: But they were. You were worried about exposing. [01:28:11] Speaker A: I don't, I don't know. It just, just. Just what? I think I still had that denial. I should have brought it with me, but I didn't. But I wasn't thinking about that. But yeah, they, yeah, they. They refused the book because of that Said has content that includes gang information and you know, the, the pedophile guy. [01:28:31] Speaker B: Well, somebody read it to get the bottom all out. Oh, yes. [01:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:34] Speaker B: But yeah, that's. I mean, that's the least of it. I mean, I think, you know that it was emotional for me to receive it too, because like I said, I can't really, you know, I'm looking to go poke the bear. [01:28:44] Speaker A: Right. Right. [01:28:44] Speaker B: You know, but I was, I was, I couldn't have been more pleased. [01:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:48] Speaker B: I was tentatively pleased at first, thinking when we received the letter, I was thinking, oh, boy. Because by then I still had the same phone number. So all these family members that are on the outside were sending all these threats and I was getting all kinds of, you know. [01:29:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:03] Speaker B: You know, all the garbage that was. [01:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:29:06] Speaker B: So there was a degree of concern, but, you know, but I still had some, Some hope. You know, once I read it, I thought, man, this is wonderful because I would. You would have been the dude I picked anyway. [01:29:17] Speaker A: Right, right. [01:29:17] Speaker B: You know, to try to. To try to have a relationship with and try to understand more and anybody that I can lend support to, because I just. I think you really, really, really got screwed on the prosecution. [01:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:30] Speaker B: And. And again, it was out of my control and it was really frustrating for me. I. I can only speak for myself. I can't. I can't imagine. I'm not saying that I could feel what you had to go through, knowing that you're the one that had to do all that time. [01:29:45] Speaker A: Right, right. And. And I seen Coffin Dafa. Jennifer. Yeah. I seen. Well, I didn't, you know, physically sealed, but I watched a lot of. [01:29:59] Speaker B: On the tv. [01:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Dateline and id. But what's her name? She always looked mean. Nancy Grace. Is that her name? I think. Nancy Grace. Yeah. Yeah. You know, always look mean. And I remember it was on a Saturday morning, her show. Come on on a Saturday morning, I'm going to say. And here with me today is Special Agent Jennifer Coffin. Man, I jumped up out the. I said, man, that's who. Prosecutor, man. That's the lady that, that was the case agent, blah, blah. You know. But, but yeah, so I guess she still. Unless she retired. [01:30:35] Speaker B: She's retired now. Yeah. [01:30:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But she was still. [01:30:38] Speaker B: Yeah, she still does. [01:30:39] Speaker A: Which has been a. It's been. That's been five, six years. [01:30:43] Speaker B: Well, you can still find her on tv. Every once in a while they'll call her and ask her, you know, because she's a, you know, she's got a lot to say. Say on stuff. Which is great. Yeah, she was so. So that people understand. I was a Fort Worth Gang Unit narcotic officer that got assigned to the FBI for this undercover case. [01:31:02] Speaker A: Right, right. [01:31:03] Speaker B: And then they assigned me an FBI agent to. To bridge the gap between doing the undercover work and it was getting submitted to the U.S. attorney's office in. As a federal case. So otherwise, you know, if I'd done the case, it would have been a. The state case. And so they have assigned me to the FBI, you know, give you deputization and assign you there. [01:31:22] Speaker A: Right. [01:31:22] Speaker B: And she was the one that they assigned me because there's only a single agent there. So I did all the undercover work and she did a lot of the paperwork. [01:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:30] Speaker B: For the feds is. [01:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:31] Speaker B: Just a ridiculous amount of time. [01:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:33] Speaker B: But she also shared a lot of the compassion that I did. So I, I thought she was a great partner for that, you know, for. In that regard. Because you can end up with, you know, law enforcement is. You really know how law enforcement is. And I see the same thing. I'm a dude and I'm. I'm not so biased. [01:31:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:50] Speaker B: I've been. I was a professional musician right. Before I cut all my hair off. [01:31:54] Speaker A: Right. [01:31:54] Speaker B: Started doing this. So trust me, I got different perspectives than just. I'm not a lifelong cop and I appreciate them, but I also see it for what it is. When I see crooks and racists and. [01:32:05] Speaker A: Whatever I call it, man, it is down. [01:32:09] Speaker B: I was grateful that it was her because she also would bust her ass and work really hard. So that's who essentially you're talking about seeing. You know, just to give some perspective on that. Saw her on the tv. She still does some consulting work or. [01:32:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:32:21] Speaker B: Or whatever. I guess. That's. That's really funny. [01:32:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:32:24] Speaker B: Was your experience with her pleasant too? Because I think. [01:32:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't have. No, I didn't have a bad experience with us. She, you know, we was extremely cordial, you know, I mean, you know, she used to tell me just. She used to always ask me, why do you. Do you know how much they saying on you? Why do you do this? And I remember I was walking out the door, she said, man, that's one tough ass old man, you know, But I just had, you know, you have your own code that you have to live. That's the street code and game code. And then that's your code. You know what I mean? [01:32:54] Speaker B: So OG Is OG Yeah. A lot of people will use those letters flippantly, but. [01:33:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:01] Speaker B: But now you. I get it. [01:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I can't. Yeah. Yeah. [01:33:04] Speaker B: But at the same time, you're much more of a compassionate human and smarter than people will give you credit for and more than capable. So, you know, I'm. I'm really proud to have you as a friend at this point. [01:33:16] Speaker A: Me too. [01:33:17] Speaker B: Means a lot. [01:33:18] Speaker A: It means a lot to have you as a friend. I always say, man, friendship is a special place and I'm glad we made it there. [01:33:23] Speaker B: And I'll tell you what else. I don't have very many real friends yeah. So, you know, I would. I would. I would do a lot for a lot of people because I'm a giving person. But when you're talking about a friend, I got a really small group. [01:33:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:36] Speaker B: So welcome to the fold. [01:33:37] Speaker A: Yeah. See, because friendship has got me in a lot of trouble, man. You know, I'm. I'm a bit of a lawless man. You know, and something go bad, and when people call on me, man, I believe I should be there. You know what I mean? That's why I'm. And I'm short on giving my word, man. But I'm long on keeping it. [01:33:56] Speaker B: So how. How can you give if. If we can just talk as friends, how can you give me assurance? I already have faith in this, but I would love to hear how you will address the next person that comes and says, hey, man, you kind of owe me one. And asked you to do something that you know is going to be the wrong thing because you've got a. You've got a history of doing it, you know, you want to do the right thing, right? You say, I've got. I'm so loyal. I'm going to do this anyway. At the expense of my entire life. What. What can you say that might be convincing to guess what? [01:34:29] Speaker A: I'll tell him. Now, fortunately for me, I don't have anybody like that. You know, all the people I gave my word to, it's all been done and so. But let's just say one did came to me now, and they know how I feel about my word. For the first time, they would call me one. Sorry, MF Because I'm not going to do it. If it's wrong, I'm not doing it. See, it is pure. I always say if anybody want to see a real walking, living miracle, all they have to do is look at me. This is a miracle that I'm sitting here. I'm not dead. Most of my friends, and I mean, good one people who I embrace wholeheartedly, family to me, they dead. Now, I got a few still left out there. We call, we talk on the phone. And, you know, all of them have the same thing to say about me. The same two things to say, man, I heard in you this time, man, you ain't going back. See, I've never told nobody that till this time, man. I'm not going back to prison. Now, you may cross me out and send me to prison, but I'm saying, if I got to commit a crime to go to prison, you shit out of luck. I'm not doing Nothing else wrong. I'm done, man. I'm so done. I'm just. The prison politics, the headache, the stress, the. And at Beaumont usp, stabbings occur daily. Whether they get reported or not is one thing, but listen to what I'm saying. Daily. Stabbings occur there daily. Ass whoopings daily. You know, man, I'm tired of the environment, man. It's not just. I'm old and tired. I'm just tired, period. You know? I mean. Yeah. Just done, you know, which is different. [01:36:09] Speaker B: Don't you wish you had finally just come up with that philosophy 30 years ago? [01:36:13] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Do you recall one time I had wrote you and told you, t. My philosophy used to be this. I would rather be in prison before I be under somebody's bridge. Today I live under that bridge before I go back to prison. Ain't that something? That's a whole. That's not 180, man. [01:36:34] Speaker B: Well, I hope you know, too, if you were under a bridge, you'd have helped. [01:36:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And look at. And look the way. Look the way Taylor just came out of nowhere, man. Yeah. Man. I love this woman to death, man. Yeah. [01:36:48] Speaker B: And, Taylor. So ultimately, you got a sentence where the judge stacked your parole. [01:36:55] Speaker A: Right. [01:36:56] Speaker B: And the fishbowl sentence. [01:36:57] Speaker A: Right. [01:36:57] Speaker B: Your fishbowl sentence was 20. [01:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:00] Speaker B: But you had another. [01:37:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:02] Speaker B: Like several years still to do in the state, and you were already the oldest guy. [01:37:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:07] Speaker B: So we're already looking at life. [01:37:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:09] Speaker B: And so he. [01:37:09] Speaker A: Yeah, he made it 40. I was doomed to die in prison. Yeah. [01:37:12] Speaker B: So the moment you started writing the. The. That was the moment I knew we had a shot. Now, I knew at one point, too, we helped you get moved to a different spot and different things, but I was like, man, how do we get this cat out? So I. I had a meeting with the federal judge. We had a meeting with him and a. And another assistant U.S. attorney. I explained your situation. He was familiar with the case. He wasn't your judge, but he was another judge there in the federal courthouse. And after explaining what I'm trying to do, I said, if it cost me money, I get it. I'm just trying to find an attorney, because I ain't no attorney. I'm not, you know, and you can only file so many appeals right before you're kind of done. The last thing I wanted to see you do. Try to write your own. [01:37:57] Speaker A: Exhaust the remedies. Yeah. [01:37:59] Speaker B: So we were working on that. And so those. Both the AUSA and. And the. The federal judge, both Recommended one attorney. They said, this is the guy. This is the guy who really cares about what he's doing. He's really good at what he does. And I thought, well, if this is the other side saying this defense attorney is the badass. [01:38:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And this guy, that's who I'm going to go. Yeah, yeah. [01:38:21] Speaker B: I'm gonna buy him a steak dinner. Right. [01:38:23] Speaker A: Somebody with some tenacity. [01:38:25] Speaker B: Yes. So we sat down, I finally got a lunch with him, and we went through the whole scenario. And it helped that I could use those other cash names. As you know, they're the ones that sent me here and explained the story and everything. He'd heard of the case and Taylor was one of his employees. [01:38:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:38:43] Speaker B: So that's when essentially he's the. He's the guy. And they got all these other cases or whatever. So I started working with Taylor, right. And she started becoming infatuated with the story. She read the book, she started having conversation with you. Because I'm like, look, I don't need a bit of go between, you know, if you're linked to the attorney's office, let's get the paperwork to where you can talk. Right. With Mike and let's get this done. [01:39:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:06] Speaker B: And we knew that time was short and somebody had talked about last, I think last September through the end of the year was like a little window of opportunity for filing a case. And all this, it's. It was stressful on our end, but again, I don't want to make it sound like I was going through the stress that you were. [01:39:21] Speaker A: Right. [01:39:21] Speaker B: Because I just knew, like, this is kind of a one shot deal because you exhausted some. [01:39:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:26] Speaker B: And. And then, like, take it from there. How. How you end up being here? [01:39:30] Speaker A: Well, you know, like you said, I had pretty much done all I could do. I had, you know, exhausted all my remedies. So the only thing left that would give me some action would have been a, you know, compassionate release. What they call compassionate release. [01:39:45] Speaker B: Right. We were trying to file. [01:39:47] Speaker A: Right. And it wasn't based on my health, even though it's not, you know, 100% today. But I want. I just wanted to see my big brother again, you know, And I knew that he was, you know, I knew he had copd real bad. And I remember just how it crushed me. I'm talking to him on the phone and I remember how he was telling me, well, you know, I don't walk too much no more, Mike. What you mean you don't walk? I knew his knees ache was getting bad before I left. He said, yeah. He said, man, I. He said, ain't that. My legs ain't working? He said, man, I don't have. I don't have the oxygen to do all that walking around, man. You know, I said, man, it's got that bad. Yeah, I got oxygen tank. I got a wheelchair. And he couldn't see me, but, boy, he don't know. He was. Cuz. I'm used to seeing my big brother. My brothers are strong dudes, you know, These are the people I idolize, you know? Yeah. And, you know, I just. I. It was hard for me, you know, picturing that, trying to envision that, you know. And I thought, man, I need to get out of here, man. I need. I need to take care of my brother. So. And that. That led to me, you know, stressing, trying to do the compassionate release thing. And I remember when you told me, hey, man, whatever. I know you did a few things. Whatever you do, don't do nothing. Don't file another thing. We working on it on this end. And, you know, which again, that's what led me to the directness with Taylor. You know, you can email me, you can call me. And I was telling you, I really don't like going through, you know, the phone is really. No, it was not a problem for me. But see, the way the phones in our unit was situated, you had a Chicano phone, you had a white phone. Then you had Louisiana. DC Phone and you had a gang phone. What does that put me? What does that put a South car or a Texas car? Now, that's just in this particular unit I was in. But I was so well respected, I could use any phone. I just didn't wanna be on the phone being in somebody way who, you know, you always gonna have somebody, man. We always let old school use the phone, man. Well, OG Mike always on our phone, you know. So to avoid that, I would just avoid the phone, you know. So I tell. That's why I told Taylor I prefer to write. Not only that, I can, you know, I can express myself, but my letters may be long, but, you know, I'll get to what I'm getting to, you know. So eventually I started trying to do the. The email, whatever, you know, I can't type. I can't even now email like this with my little finger. And lady asked me all day, you need what stylist is? Yeah, I know what a stylist is. I ain't just dumb. I just quit school in the sixth grade. But I'm not dumb. You Know, but anyway, we got to that. So, you know. You know, I was able to, you know, communicate with her better now. You know, Like I said, I try to call her, text every chance I get. I talk to her mother. I talk to Jody all the time. You know, just going good. And I told you the box arrived today. I got a box as big as this seat we sitting. I said, man, just full of stuff, you know. I mean, damn, Taylor. So I gotta notify, let her know what's going on. But, yeah, the compassionate release thing was in play. We getting ready to put that in play. I think I had one more sheet to fill out and send that out to her. And, you know, hey, man, I'm in prison. So, you know, what's in prison that's not out here? So I went to work. I worked in the Education Department. I went to work, and another one of the homeboys from Texas came up, say, og, man, you know, you got. You know you got clemency. I said, bro, I ain't got no damn clemency. Be working on my compassion release. I done told y' all that. Now everybody in the Education Department, I got letters from. I still have those letters, right? Now, I got to write these people back and, you know, tell them thank. Cause they were really in my corner, man. Really, really in my corner. So he said, man, you know, we got a phone over there, man. We looked it up, bro. You tell you got clemency, man, you got clemency. Now, they knew about it before my case manager knew about it. So I think they had told me like, two weeks before. But I never get my case manager working that Saturday. And he came to my. Says, man, I hate to wake you up this morning, but I got some good news for you. I said, you do? He said, man, now, this really puts icing on the cake. Cause now I know it's not bullshit. [01:44:08] Speaker B: Yeah, man, if they were messing you with that, though. Yeah, really sorry. [01:44:11] Speaker A: But you got dudes, they'll do that. You know what I mean? You got something that'll do that. But it was too many people. 10. I seen. I seen you on. I seen it, too, man. You know, we got a phone. They got a phone. We all looked at you, man. You. You know, man, this shit gotta be real, man. But when my case manager came in there and told me, said, man, on Saturday morning, he told me, said, man, you know you got clemency. I looked at him first. I said, man, look, name is Mr. McGowan. I said, Mr. McGowan, you. And I You know, we. All right, man. I know you don't know a lot about this because you was working recreation, and you change your position to become a case manager, so you just may not know what you're talking about. He said, man, listen, I can't tell you when you're going to leave because I'm not supposed to. He say, but before your birthday, you won't be in this prison. He said, I don't know where you won't be, but you will not be in the Federal Bureau of Prisons, man. He said, man, you got clemency for real, man. That was the first time I cried. I knew then that, man, this is real. Yeah. So I called a friend of mine from D.C. down to the cell. Like, he out now, too. As a matter of fact, we talked the other night. [01:45:18] Speaker B: Was he on the list too, or you just. [01:45:19] Speaker A: No, no, he just ended up getting out. Yeah, all this FSA stuff, all that kicked in for him. But, yeah, and I knew then it was real, man, you know, so. And I didn't even get a chance. They was supposed to give me the copy of it before I left, but they didn't. I end up, through Taylor, end up getting the copy, and I keep. I look at it almost every other day on my phone. I always show people, look, man, you see this sign by Joe Biden, man? This real. Because I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. [01:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it was one of Biden's last acts, man. 1500 people. [01:45:47] Speaker A: 1500 and 39. Well, 1500. Then he did another 39, which was political. You know, some political people that was locked up. [01:45:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So there's, you know, there's good and bad that comes along with that. Obviously, that was a day of celebration because I didn't find out the same way people texting me. I did the same thing. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, don't. I mean, let's make sure this is legit and everything. They're sending court documents, versions, everything. Like, man, are you kidding me? And then, you know, trying to reach you on an email. [01:46:18] Speaker A: I'm like, yes, I know I'm not. [01:46:19] Speaker B: Gonna be the first. [01:46:20] Speaker A: So I'm gonna try press. Dr. Press. I got clemency. [01:46:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I saved that message from. So I noticed, also on that same list, interestingly, they. They released the rest of the fishbowl guys, too. [01:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:46:34] Speaker B: And. [01:46:35] Speaker A: And, you know, I haven't really scrolled through that to look at that yet. I'll just look at my name because Taylor highlighted. Good. [01:46:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's all good. I just, you know, I have people that I have concerns about, some people that I don't. And so it's just interesting because I wouldn't balk with since your name's on there, but I think, you know, when they do the clemency, it's always because they're non violent drug case. [01:46:57] Speaker A: Right, right. [01:46:57] Speaker B: I'm like, well, right. This fishbowl wasn't a non violent drug case. [01:47:01] Speaker A: This was, this was cribs. Yeah. [01:47:04] Speaker B: You know, but again, the fact that they don't get it was to our benefit. [01:47:08] Speaker A: Right. [01:47:08] Speaker B: Because now you're out and there couldn't be a, couldn't be a better guy that they could get out and, and release to the world. Let you know, let us know what else you got in you, man. [01:47:18] Speaker A: Thank you, man. [01:47:23] Speaker B: Talk about some difficult. First, I'd love to hear you describe the feelings once you got to this spot. You're, you're staying at a, at a place right now and, and talk about what you appreciate about that place. Yeah, well, not, not even specifically. Just. I know we've had some of these conversations already, so I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, but you're, you're eloquent when you describe some of the things that you enjoy because it helps us all realize how simple life should be. And we all over complicate things. But tell me about some of the emotions, the things that you saw, you smelled, you felt. And that just does your first two weeks out. Tell me about them. [01:48:06] Speaker A: My first two weeks. [01:48:09] Speaker B: This is after two weeks, after 20 years. [01:48:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. My first two weeks was like so much that was unreal to me. You know they say pinch yourself. I did it for real. I would actually. This is real, man. Yeah. And I would look over sometime. I'd wake my, one of my roommates up. I'd wake him up, hey, man, am I really here with you? Because I mean, my head was really up, to put it lightly because, man, this is real, man. I'm really out. I'm free, man. And I would get up, you know, even though they not supposed to, you know, but I would go to the desk and tell, hey man, can I go outside? He said, man, you know, it's three o' clock in the morning. I'm not going anywhere. I just want to. Because I wanted to see the stars. I never saw the stars at Beaumont USP because, you know, you around all these refineries and it's always clouds, you know, from, you know, the emissions from the factories. But I went out there. And I looked up my man. It was the first time I seen stars. And I was thinking, I don't. I couldn't even remember how long ago it had been since I seen stars. And when I seen them stars, it's like, man, you really are free, man. You. You really out. You. You really out. The bed customer. I don't know if I told you, my first three days out, I didn't sleep in the bed. I slept on the floor because the bed was too comfortable. It was like, man, this real, man. I'm sinking in this, man. This is. I. Nah, this ain't right. So I would sleep on. They come in, hey, man, you're not supposed. Hey, look, I gotta do this, bro. So they thinking I got a bad back. So, okay, you say I got about. I'll go along with that. You know, eventually I work my way to the bed, though, you know, and then I could. I could, you know, just get up when I wanted to get up. I could walk around and nobody had to readjust a knife or, you know, it's really free. I mean, you know, you out. I mean, I've always made. Tried to make this distinction anyway. Even though I was in prison, I was always free because I could, you know, my freedom was my mind. I could go anywhere. I do anything. If that didn't work, I'd get a National Geographic magazine or put it on National Grip like near National Geographic Channel. But what I didn't have was liberty. I couldn't move when I wanted to move. I couldn't come out of that cell when I wanted to. Most of the time you're on lockdown because of some violence or too many people checking in and silence. I think I sent you one of the memos one time and, you know, you people, you know, requesting protective custody and all that, so we on lockdown for one reason or another. It's just a violent place. [01:50:42] Speaker B: It was actually unbelievable how long you stayed on lockdowns. Yeah, long stretches. I mean, you may as well been in seg. [01:50:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:50] Speaker B: And I drove six hours to come visit you. [01:50:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:53] Speaker B: And I couldn't even visit you and got turned around. [01:50:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:56] Speaker B: So. And I'm not. I'm not saying woe is me. I'm just saying that's. How ridiculous is that? I call ahead in the morning. [01:51:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:03] Speaker B: And we. We just feel like I'm not going to be able to even come visit you because this place is so ridiculous. You got to wait until you can email me a week later. [01:51:10] Speaker A: And you get four hours right Right. [01:51:12] Speaker B: Unbelievable. [01:51:12] Speaker A: And still you might not. When you get. By the time you get there, it might be locked down anyway. Yeah, you know, they. They've kind of relaxed that a little bit now. Not the lockdown, but they'll let you get a visit. Even though they own lockdown. Unless it's. Which is emergency security, detention, stat. Now, you know, ain't nothing happening, but. Yeah, my first two weeks out, man, I was still trying to grasp the fact that it's real. Even now, though, you know, the only place I go, like, you know, T. Mobile, about my phone, Walmart, you know, you know, little places like that. But when I'm in there, I get it. I'll start off good, but I have to get out of there. It's too much. Too many different smells, too many different colors. Yeah, yeah. I'm overstimulated, man. I don't like crowds. If people start bunching up around me, I get all jumpy, you know what I mean? And, like, I asked one dude, and I did it before I even caught myself. T. That's what I. I hate that, man. But I did it. The dude was standing here. I said, man, what you reaching here in your pocket for? He says, excuse me, sir. I said, oh, man, I'm sorry. I apologize, man. I just thinking about something. But when I walked, he was still looking at me like, what the. Did he. But he. You know, it just caught me off guard, man. You. I'm. You know, you stuck your hand. I don't know what you finna come out to, but I'm. That's prison. You know what I mean? I'm. I'm. You know, I know it. I know it's ptsd. I know what it is, you know, and I, like. I said I don't like crowds, man. If it get too crowded somewhere, I have to move, move around. I can't do that, bro. I don't. I don't. [01:52:48] Speaker B: Were you like that before? Like, as a. Yeah, yeah, I kind of. [01:52:52] Speaker A: Not. Not it. Not that extreme. But that's why I didn't never. I didn't never do a lot of. I did a lot of clubbing as a youngster. [01:52:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:52:58] Speaker A: You know, but I. I don't do a lot of clubs because I don't like. I don't like crowds, you know? I don't like a lot of crowds. I need that space. [01:53:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:53:06] Speaker A: I need some space in between what I do, where I go. I like space, you know? [01:53:10] Speaker B: So, yeah, you mentioned all that kind of stimuli and the colors and. [01:53:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Smells and for the most time I like being by myself. I mean, you know, I'm not, you know, if I look at the paper here, it says, In 1972, the Texas Board of Education or something sent me to see Dr. June Huckleby. And she said that I was borderline mentally with behavior disorder and asocial tendencies. That was her diagnosis. And I was a kid then, you know, so. [01:53:44] Speaker B: AKA an introvert. [01:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I never have, like, you know, crowds. I like. If it's me and a couple other people, that's good. You know, I. I like the threesome. I like three people anytime I get around crowds because I don't know, you know, I don't. Unless I'm just around a bunch of, I know, super square people, then I'm not bothered. But I'm around people I know most of the time I feel it before I even see it. I don't know, I guess you would say a sixth sense, maybe a street sense or whatever. But I usually know, I feel when something is about to happen. It's like at the place I'm staying now and this dude just passed me, but he brushed against me. I felt him. I said, man, this dude is a child molester. And I know it. Sure enough he's a child molester. Sure enough, he's a child molest. Yeah, just. [01:54:34] Speaker B: That is. That's definitely streets. [01:54:36] Speaker A: I just, I mean, the more that. [01:54:38] Speaker B: Experience you have and certainly the more personal experience that you can take through that living. I mean, you've got to be hyper aware. Your intuitive sense has got to be. [01:54:46] Speaker A: Right. [01:54:47] Speaker B: Fantastic. [01:54:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And sometime I get, you know, I get, you know, I can, I can become hyper vigilant. I think maybe that's one of the reason why I like the Equalizer. [01:54:59] Speaker B: Equalizer is great. [01:55:01] Speaker A: I think that's why I like that movie. Because a lot of times I can walk in and I'll just. How many licenses. I don't know why I do that, but I do it, you know, I. I do that. You know, I get certain places I have to, you know, know what's going. Where I'm at, you know, what's going on around me. Just like that. But yeah, anyway, back to where we was at from the, from the compassionate release. Like I said, I ended up getting clemency. Got out, man. And my first two weeks out was, you know, still, you know, with my first two weeks, I was just really unreal, you know, Unreal. I was in the. I'm in the presence of everybody who's done time But I think. I think I'm the only person there that was in the usp, though. You know, there was a lot of them. They was in mediums and lows and camps. But, you know, my. My time there was a lot of. A lot of more serious, a lot harder. But, you know, even now, you know, which is far past the two week mark, but I'm still making adjustments. Yeah, I'm still trying to acclimate, you know, to what I'm around, you know, I. I have no problem out of the staff where I'm at, man. You know, these people really respect me, and, man, I respect them, man. [01:56:16] Speaker B: That's great. [01:56:17] Speaker A: Yeah, they. They. [01:56:18] Speaker B: You know, they could undo a good thing. Having real jerks running that. [01:56:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it could. Cause, you know, I had one situation where, you know, some medication mysteriously came up missing. You know, I didn't even press this. I didn't even press. Hey, man, this came. Is not there. It had to go somewhere. I don't work behind the desk. You do. Y' all do. So. But, you know, needless to say, though, the director at the place, he's good. The assistant director, man, you know, I shout them out, you know. Cause they all good people, man. You know, I respect them. They respect Mr. Holton. That's. That's a good thing. That's a plus for me, you know, as you can see the concern the lady had when I called her, you know, I mean, so, you know, they, they, they, they. They good to me, T. You know, we. We. We. We don't have. This is like unlike any other halfway house, bro. It's. It's. It's a lot of restrictions they have in those places that can't have a phone. They have to turn their phone in at a certain time of day or certain time, and we don't have that. We know. I found. Now, we. We restricted to certain social media, you know, which. Which I understand, you know, but other than that, man, hey, man, you know, so far, life is good to me, man. You know. [01:57:28] Speaker B: Hey, in the last few weeks, you become a. A freaking pro on that phone. [01:57:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I'm. Hey, man, I'm getting it down, bro. I'm getting it down, man. Now I got to get my. I got to learn how to share the photos. I talked to a homegirl a couple of weeks ago. She, you know, ran me through it, how to do it, but I didn't repeat. I don't know how to repeat the process, but I'm gonna get it, though. And you supposed to Send me a picture, too. Yeah, I'm sending it to me. What pictures? That. [01:57:53] Speaker B: Oh, I sure do. Of me and you. [01:57:55] Speaker A: No, no. What? That picture, too was the picture you took with Isaiah before he died. [01:58:00] Speaker B: Oh, I haven't given you that picture yet. No. Oh, man. [01:58:03] Speaker A: We're not leaving until I. Yeah. He. He. I tell you, I growed his gray beard. I didn't know. He didn't know he had a. Yeah. Beard because he wasn't wearing no beard. [01:58:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So I. Yeah, I went out to his house that. When we were. When we were talking about getting that. That release paperwork done through the attorney's office. [01:58:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:20] Speaker B: You needed a place that you could state. [01:58:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:23] Speaker B: That you had. [01:58:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:24] Speaker B: In case they did release you or they wouldn't release you. Yes. You had a reasonable. [01:58:28] Speaker A: Right. [01:58:29] Speaker B: Caretaker. And so that's why I went there for you and got an opportunity to meet him. [01:58:33] Speaker A: So. [01:58:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Great. Dude, man. It was just. Man, it was. [01:58:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was worried about him until you told me where he reluctant answer the phone because of the spam calls. You know, you get so many spam. [01:58:44] Speaker B: Yeah. He's, you know, he's an older cat and he's getting, you know, 30 calls a day. [01:58:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:49] Speaker B: And one of them's legit. [01:58:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:51] Speaker B: You know, so you just gets frustrated, and I can totally understand that. [01:58:55] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. Now. Because I get some. Yeah. You know, I know now. You know. [01:58:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:59:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:59:00] Speaker B: That's something to navigate. That's just. That's a. That's a first world problem, though, right? I mean, things have been so much worse that that's. [01:59:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:59:08] Speaker B: That's the worst thing we've got to deal with. [01:59:10] Speaker A: Nothing. Yeah. [01:59:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:59:11] Speaker A: The only problem I had so far with this new phone I have. God. Said I must have hit a wrong button, but I'm. So if I did, I must have been what they call a butt dial type thing because I'm too careful about what I touch. But my phone popped up and said, you have seven viruses. Then it said you have 32 viruses. And then if I try to call text, these ads would just pop up. Pop up. So that's what made me take the phone back. And the dude said he couldn't do nothing about it. He said I must have accidentally erased my ESIM because it doesn't have a SIM card. So I took it to T Mobile. That's how I got the new little plan here until I take it back. Now that I got a legitimate identification, I can take it back. And hopefully she said she'd give me my Old number back, but that remains to be seen. I hope she'd give it back because I've gave that number to too many people and I don't want to have to re, you know, send them a different number. [02:00:13] Speaker B: And that's one of the cool, simpler things too, now that you're out, is you got to go get a new id. Yeah, Social Security card, all that kind of stuff. Is there anything that you've learned through this process? It's. No, it's still early, but having the guys around you too. What are some of the difficulties that someone like you or some of your comrades who are just getting out, what are some of the difficulties you face that most normal people wouldn't appreciate? [02:00:37] Speaker A: It's just trying to get a job. I got guys in there right now, man, they ran to go. They need work. Some have landed jobs, some have. Even some of the women are. Same process with them. It's the job. But you got. Some people have no problem hiring a felon. They don't care. They want some, you know, they want somebody reliable. My opinion now, my opinion, I don't think you can get a better employee. Get you somebody coming out of prison that really want to work. Not only do you have a good employer, you got a law one. Because a lot of them I know, God right now, he been offered a better paying job, but you know, he won't leave where he at. He said, nah, man, these people was good to me. These people hired me, man, when nobody else would. He said, you think I'm finna lead these people now? You know, and I understand that because I told you, if I ever started working, they can't tell me things like, oh, you can have all the time you want, Ms. Told you just made a mistake. You'll never get me out that place, man. I'm gonna start camping, bring my sleeping bag, my backpack, not knowing I sleep in the restroom, you know? I mean, yeah, you know, I feel that way, man, but, well, you know, like I said, I got the Social Security going in my case manager, for whatever reason, bro, she just laid it. You too old to work, you don't need a job. Okay, I'll go along with you for right now. Oh, but when I leave there, man, I'm gonna be on the hunt, you know? Yeah, I just gotta do what I gotta do. It's not enough. And I'm not extravagant spender, man. I'm. I'm really type of frugal. But what I need, I need, you know what I mean? It's like Right now. I know I need to get me a little watch tool kit. I gotta take some links out this, you know, it's a little bitty things I need, but I need them, you know what I mean? I need them. You know, I like, I like, I like Jerry, but I'm not gonna buy expensive jury. Oh, this ring look nice ring. Cost me $6 at the corner store, but it looks good. [02:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And if it gets tarnished, then guess what? Yeah, you'll buy another one. [02:02:31] Speaker A: $6. [02:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:02:32] Speaker A: With tax, you know, so no big deal, man. You know, but I'm. I'm really enjoying this this time. T. I never see, I never had the true mindset of I'm not going back. I'm gonna stay free, man. You know, whatever's given to me now is just by grace. It is a miracle that I'm here, you know, that I'm alive. Yeah. And it's a miracle that I'm free. So I'm, I'm, I'm gonna utilize my miracle, you know what I mean? I'm gonna try to my best to, you know, do everything I'm gonna do on my part, you know, much others. But that's a bit a big obstacle though, man. It's just trying to get a job, man. That and you know, re acclimating to it, especially when you've been gone a long time. One of my roommates been gone, he was gone 28 years, you know, so, and I, and I'm, you know, I explained things to him. We sit down, we had some good deep conversations, you know, I talked to another guy's sister because she's going through some things, you know, like I told her, I said, look, sorry ma', am, I don't have the gift of gab, but I can tell you some things. And we end up talking for two and a half hours, you know, because she told me nobody never talked to her like that. Nobody never told them. Well, I'm going to tell you, you know, I mean, you doing right, you doing right. If you're doing wrong, you're doing wrong. But if you don't want to hear it, don't ask me. [02:03:51] Speaker B: Yeah, And I think that's a great perspective too, because I think a lot of people just assume that somebody has done prison time, especially for violent crime or whatever, and they're already kind of hands off because it's harder to trust somebody you think is going to steal. [02:04:06] Speaker A: Right. Or whatever. [02:04:08] Speaker B: But your, your point is, is well said that there's a lot of loyal people and if that really is their goal, to get a job. Most people that are trying to get right back into the game aren't putting in an application in the first place. [02:04:20] Speaker A: No, they're not. They're not. You're not. [02:04:22] Speaker B: So that's a. That's a great point. [02:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And you know, I. I about, you know, during those times I'm free, I've always tried. I've always tried to get a job. You know what I mean? Always, always look for work. Always, always. And it don't matter sometime if I land a job. And you know, and here I always know, man, at least you're trying, Mike. You know, you're trying. Look at so and so. Look at so he ain't even trying. He. You know, and I already know where that road. It's just. That's the pathway. Only thing beats you back to the penitentiary. The headlights on the bus, that's pretty damn fast, you know what I mean? [02:04:58] Speaker B: So when you stay on that road, one step at a time. [02:05:01] Speaker A: Right, Right. And see, a lot of us knew. I've never had to on my own. Go get a Social Security card. Go get this, go get that. So. But it's teaching me as I go, you know, And I would really kill. When I go to place and say, well, you have to be patient. I'll be saying, do you have any idea how patient I am? [02:05:23] Speaker B: That goes on. [02:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you clueless lady. I can sit here and wait all day and never even get frustrated. But the frustration is that, like, when you trying your best, you trying your hardest, and these doors close in your face off, you know, well, you got to do this, you got to do that. And they don't know it, but they introducing me to something that's brand new. I don't. I didn't, you know, and I tell them I didn't know that so. Well, why. And now. Now I've got to go and explain. Look, man, I've been gone for 22 years. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do that. Right. I put my card in here. What do I do next? They be looking at like, are you for real? Push. Yes, right here. Enter your pen and that. Oh, okay. Well, I'm not, you know, I tell them I'm not joking, which I don't know. I mean, if I knew, I wouldn't be asking you, you know, I'm not playing a joke on you. We're not making a video, you know, Shit is real. I don't know. You know, so. And that's one of the things, too, I hate about being, having. Doing those long ass sentences. You know, you get back to the world, it's not the world that you left. It's something new, you know, As I always tell you, they didn't have touchscreen phones. So, you know, this whole operation is a whole new thing to me. You know, you couldn't download a movie on your phone, you know, now you can, you know, so it's so much that's new to me, you know, and I'm still fascinated and amazed by it. I mean, I am. I truly am. You know, you take. You know, I used to have a habit of reading the dictionary. I said, I will study a word a day, a word a day. And I ran into this word when I was in the A Alphabet and it said autodidactic. That became my word. I said, man, because I don't know what a seventh grade classroom looked like because I never went to the seventh grade. I quit. Well, I had graduated from the sixth grade and I never went. So what I know is because autodidactic, because you're. I'm selftaught. That's what the word means. Everything that. What I know, I'm. I'm. I teach myself. You know what I mean? So I. A lot of things I have to learn. And, you know, there are a lot of people who are ashamed of this, shame of that. And I'm so far removed from shame. I have no problem. I don't even know t to this day. Well, until my senior years, I don't know my timetables, I don't know. [02:07:48] Speaker B: Well, it's one of the advantages of being in this day and age because guess what? I got to hurt you in the 70s. [02:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:07:54] Speaker B: Now. [02:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:07:55] Speaker B: I don't think a lot of kids know that. [02:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:07:57] Speaker B: It can't come full circle. Everything kind of does it for you. [02:08:00] Speaker A: Now, I can write courtesy, but I know a lot of people that can't. You know, as they say, don't teach it in schools, man. [02:08:04] Speaker B: You have fantastic handwriting, by the way. [02:08:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Thank you. I told you how I did that. My handwriting was so ugly. I used to copy the letters in these cars. I get a pretty car, man, I'm gonna start making my L like this, my M like that, my I. And I went through the whole Alphabet, you know, from A to Z. So that's why I write like I write. [02:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah. You could create your own cards? [02:08:23] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, easily. I used to make them or Write. [02:08:26] Speaker B: In code 4 time just by writing curses. [02:08:29] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [02:08:29] Speaker B: Build trickmost. [02:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. [02:08:33] Speaker B: So this is a great success story as far as I'm concerned. I've got a great friend in you. What, what do you think is the lesson from all of this? What, what? I mean, what can people take from our relationship? And what, what can people look forward to hearing from your life? What are your plans from here? Because you got a lot to offer. [02:08:54] Speaker A: You know, look what I hold near and dear to my heart. I, I like to. My thing is to reach out to at risk kids because sometime I can, I don't know, like I say, I sense things, you know, I, I can see, you know, man, I'm not a prophet. I really can't tell the future. But sometimes you just know. Like I know this kid's parents and I know, I know where this kid is going. Yeah, his next stop is some institution, some jail, some. But if I can get to him, if I can get him to listen to me and I'm pretty sure I can trick you into listening, you know. But if I, if I can get that door open in here to him, I think I can save him. So that's my thing, you know, I want to, you know, I don't know if I can create a type of non profit or nothing because I, that thing is scary. That's scary to me. Too much abuses and stuff happening there. But you know, I just like to be able to. And I think I'm, I'm going to find a way where I can go to some of these schools, man, and just talk to some of them youngsters, man. Tell them, man, this, what if you're going to do this, let me tell you what you can look forward to. This is what's going to happen and it'll happen in these steps. And I'll give him all three steps that he'll take that's going to lead him behind bars. And I can tell him no, do those same the opposite of what I'm telling you. And you'll be okay if I give you a book on how to gang bang. If you do just the opposite, you won't gang bang. You know what I mean? Yeah, it works. It's just that simple. Sometimes it may appear to be complex and complicated, but it's not. It's really so simple, you know, you just have to do what you got to want to do. [02:10:35] Speaker B: And the fact that you've walked the walk before. Oh yeah, is helpful because you, you come from the game and you've done the time and you know what it's like doing the time. You know what it's like to lose friends and everything else. So, yeah, I think you've got a lot to offer there. [02:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:10:49] Speaker B: From definitely a different perspective. And you happen to have a friend that can link you with all that. [02:10:53] Speaker A: Right, Right. [02:10:54] Speaker B: Once we're. Once we're a little more mobile, you know, and you're all set to go, you know, I'll just. I'll drive you all kinds of places. I think you got tons to offer, man. [02:11:03] Speaker A: Okay. [02:11:04] Speaker B: So like I said, deal. We can do 50 of those things and save one kid, then. [02:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:11:09] Speaker B: Hallelujah. [02:11:10] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. For real. You know, I hope this stay in there. You know, the people that I shot out, man, you know. You know, I got some real good friends that's been in my corner, man. You know, they tried. You know, Even those that fell off, I ain't mad at them, you know what I mean? Because I've been able to reach out to him since I've been out. You know, my homegirl, Jewel Brisby, Glen Cook, Ricky Maddox. You know, all them Texas team dudes I left behind in prison, man. You know, some of my homies out of dc, man, you know, Floyd, professor, man, you know, Tony, you know, a couple other guys. All the dudes from that south car, man. You know. Of course, a lot of Crip homies. Blood homies, too, you know. You know, I like. You know, just shout them out. Just let them know, man, hey, man, this world is out here, man. It's good out here, man. You know, those that can come out, man, F the BS and. Come on, man. You know, if you got a chance, man, come on home, man. Cause this is where it's at. It's not there, man. If you don't did your time. You done did your time, man. It ain't your job to go take care of this and take care of. There's somebody there to take care of that for you, man. You just gotta, you know. Come on, man. If you can come. Come on, man. You know, that's. That's pretty much it, bro. I'm just. I'm just glad, man. I'm glad to be free, man. I'm just so, so honored, bro. This is. It is. Oh, and let me, please I must shout out My girl, Taylor Mendez, I love you. Thank you so much. [02:12:41] Speaker B: Well, I'm honored to be here. And I can't even believe I'm here either. [02:12:46] Speaker A: Yeah, man, it's an honor for me to be here, man. You know? Yeah. [02:12:50] Speaker B: And Just. I mean, spending time with you is great. This is a little bit more on the professional side. We got all this equipment and everything. But yeah, I'm. This is really about telling us a redemption story in my mind, for. For somebody like yourself, who's been real on the wrong side, but is a real genuine person. I, you know, I got a lot of love for you, man. So thank you so much for being a friend. [02:13:13] Speaker A: Thank you. You t. Thank you, man, for being in my corner, bro. Cause it's. There's not many people, you know, it's real short. Short list. Short list. [02:13:22] Speaker B: Short here when you need it, baby. [02:13:23] Speaker A: Okay, man, that's good to know, bro. That's good to know, man. That's great. [02:13:29] Speaker B: What's it, what you gonna do? What you're gonna do? Success around the sand Watch the second. [02:13:37] Speaker A: GR. [02:13:40] Speaker B: A confident fake to make you do to make you do what they. [02:13:45] Speaker A: Want when they won't be the fool. [02:13:50] Speaker B: A diplomatic base is the one to see it through don't let those bigots take you off your game or just let em loose Just sit here in the front seat baby it ain't that sweet the dickel is little honey from the money be but don't pay the. [02:14:08] Speaker A: Fool. [02:14:11] Speaker B: An apolitical magical potion A missing beast at the end of the game A slow roll See the truth and soul motion never found in 60fr the truth lies between blurry lines if you.