Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 I ran from that first trafficker, having no clue. I ran to the arms of another man who would traffic me, but that second trafficker didn't want me to use any drugs. So, so it, it can go both ways, right? He wanted me to stop drinking, stop smoking, and stop using drugs, and start working out to start eating healthier foods. All these things that really felt like as a 17 year old girl, that he loves me. Yep. He wants the best for you. Make me better. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Like, I knew those things were bad. I knew I shouldn't be using drugs. And, and here was this guy, like actually investing into me. You know, I had no idea that he was only making me the most profitable he could.
Speaker 2 00:00:46 Our next guest on the T Cast is one of the more resilient people that I've ever met. She was brought up in a fairly normal household, only to be sexually assaulted in her early teens and sexually trafficked for over a decade, even at one point, escaping and going right back to it. The point here is for us layman to understand how someone who experiences trauma at this age responds to people who take advantage of them, so that we can learn and prevent this from happening to our kids, and to stop this human trafficking from happening in the future. So, I hope you'll join me in welcoming, fascinating and resilient. Miss Becca Charleston to the T cast. One of the things that I wanted to start with is kind of a two-pronged question, is a little bit about how you grew up and were weaned mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and now that you have a child, how you either do or plan to do to maybe explain how trauma could arise and at what point you think that's even advantageous to do. Cause I know your, your son is fairly young. I don't know exactly what age, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and maybe compare and contrast the things that you went through or that most of us go through, because a lot of parents don't think to bring up situations like this early enough. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:02:09 <affirmative>. Um, so my relationship with my family was, honestly, it was extremely authoritarian. You know, I, I'm from Texas, uh, raised, born in Dallas, raised in the suburb of Fort Worth, and was raised going to a Southern Baptist church. We went every Sunday to Sunday school and church. We went every Wednesday night. And I grew up knowing this kind of angry God that I was very vindictive. That if you weren't doing what he wanted you to do, meaning living according to the Bible, every single cross, every t dot, every I, that he really didn't wanna hear from you. And I, I know that's, you know, really a, a reflection of how I saw, you know, obviously my earthly father, my, my parents are amazing people. I, I love them. They're a huge support to me now. But, um, you know, they were both born in the early forties, and so there was a huge generation gap.
Speaker 0 00:03:02 And, you know, they didn't talk about these kind of things, you know, that wasn't normal back then for, in the fifties and sixties. Right. I mean, obviously there's been a lot of movements and a lot of changes taken place since then. But, but they weren't raised, you know, talking about therapy or, you know, uh, sex trafficking or that wasn't even obviously on anyone's radar. And so, um, you know, like I said, they were very authoritarian that if you live under this roof, you go by our rules. And I'm sure a lot of us heard those comments. You know, what I, what I know as a grownup today is that rules without relationship equals rebellion. And, and that's what happened. I, I felt very isolated as a child. You know, one of my brothers committed suicide when I was five. I started getting sexually assaulted when I was in the fifth grade.
Speaker 0 00:03:45 Um, got bullied really bad. All these negative life events that made me vulnerable to what ultimately becoming sex trafficked. But, um, those vulnerability factors, I never talked to anybody about them because I thought that if I told anybody, specifically my parents, that I would get in trouble. Right? That, that somehow maybe I had contributed or maybe I made a poor choice, and then something happened to me. And so I inevitably blame myself for those circumstances. And so I felt very, um, depressed as a kid. I remember, this is gonna date me. I would, um, sit in my room and my parents' house and listen to old nineties r and b, like boys to men. They were a huge group back then. And I would just sit in my room and listen to that kind of music and just cry. I was just sad, you know, I was dealing with a lot and I didn't have any outlet.
Speaker 0 00:04:33 You know, fast forward to today. Um, there's so much that I, I'm trying to do different with my own son. I have a 10 year old little boy today. Okay. And he is just the light of my life. He is, you know, the reason that I had the courage to continue on and, and to, to fight for a different life and not let my past define me. Um, and some of those ways that I try to do things different in just app improve upon, right? I think naturally we all want to, um, give our kids experiences that we never had, or we wanna be the best parent that we can. And one of the ways that I do that with my son is by making the relationship the first priority. And that doesn't mean my parents didn't make it the first priority, but I like to do it a little bit differently.
Speaker 0 00:05:16 Like, I, even as my son is very young, you know, he knows that if you come to mommy and tell me the truth about anything, then you're not gonna get in trouble for it. There won't be a punishment. So if you at all did something bad, right? If you did X, Y, z, now obviously this is age appropriate, right? So it's, you know, his bad things now. Or, you know, maybe breaking something and trying to hide it or Right. Like something very innocent. But I'm trying to instill those building blocks that you can always come and talk to mommy, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that that mom's always gonna be here. And that if you tell me the truth or, and also the other thing is, you know, with my parents, it was very, um, religious and it was, yeah, there's sex, don't have it. Yeah. There's drugs.
Speaker 0 00:05:56 Don't do them. Them. And, and that was really the extent of the conversation that I had in my household growing up. And so for my son, we talk about everything. He's in the fifth grade. Um, you know, I mean, he knew Santa wasn't real. Like, I mean, even things like that <laugh>, you know, but, but also, hey, if you hear a cuss word and you wanna understand what it means, come to me and tell me, we'll, we'll talk about it. I'll tell you the truth of what it is. Now if I hear you using it Right, right. In an inappropriate way or environment, then obviously they'll, they'll have to be a consequence for that. But, but I want, I want to be the source of information because I feel like in my, my growing up, my parents weren't the source of information, which means I learned about it from everyone else. I learned about it from my friends who taught me all the wrong stuff. Right?
Speaker 2 00:06:40 Who, yeah. Other junior high kids who, who knows what. Right. And a lot of that's generational too. I think, you know, uh, like I'm, I'm probably a little older than you, but who knows? Uh, my parents are also, uh, from that generation. And it, and you're right, it was kind of a faux pa ue either ignore stuff and there's only so much that you talk about, this is appropriate, this isn't. So I can understand that. One of my questions also, interestingly enough was about, um, if spirituality or religion was leveraged, uh, an obviously it was in the beginning, is there a different version of that that you leveraged? Um, and I don't know if there was an addiction issue or what. And I know typically there are addiction issues in the trafficking world, and so much of the rehabilitation process is in some form or fashion spiritually or religiously based for good or for bad or indifferent. Yeah. But, and I, and I often ask people who've been through that, is there, is there, uh, some kind of exclusivity to that? Does that mean other, some people that are disenchanted by that are not getting that opportunity? And, and h how, how does that play a role in what you're doing now?
Speaker 0 00:07:48 I, I think, um, you're right. Unfortunately, unfortunately at the same time, you know, a, a lot of well-meaning Christian people have decided to stand up and help others, which that is beautiful <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, honestly, I have a very different view on religion today. I guess I would say I'm, I'm more of a spiritual person, but I, I do believe in God. And, and I, I did the, the church and faith was a huge part of my recovery. Like, I, I don't feel like you're able to, you know, truly redeem some, when we think about all the, all the different things that I've been through, you know, and the fact that mostly normal life today, amazingly. And I don't think that was all my, my doing. You know, I, I truly believe faith was a huge part of that. And, um, but with so many organizations being founded on, you know, religious principles across the country, it unfortunately can be very exclusive for L G B T Q individuals. For boys that have been trafficked. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's not that many programs that are open for them. There's not that many housing situations that are open for them,
Speaker 2 00:09:00 That aren't gonna try to change them first.
Speaker 0 00:09:02 Right. Right. And that's the thing is, I mean, it's great. You know, obviously we, we need everybody that, um, their heart gets moved by this issue to jump in and help. But it's, it's a whole nother thing when yeah, we're trying to proselytize, we're trying to convert other people that we're trying to define what their life should look like and what success should look like for them when that's, that's God and Jesus never did that, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, he never dictated to other people. And so I, I wish that there was a lot more inclusive services. Um, but we have some work to do.
Speaker 2 00:09:36 Okay. Well that's, that's excellent. Uh, perspective. Um, so backing up, I guess, a little bit so that I don't get ahead of myself, cuz I will, I'll start talking about all your programs now we're gonna get to them all. Um, when, when this started, you said you were junior high-ish age?
Speaker 0 00:09:53 Um, when I began, when I started getting trafficked. Yeah. Just, or
Speaker 2 00:09:57 17. 17.
Speaker 0 00:09:57 Yeah. So sophomore.
Speaker 2 00:09:59 So, um, how does, how does the manipulation happen? Because again, part of it is telling a layman whether, and also a lay woman who I think are two different people to speak to as well in our, in our audience. Um, what types of signs that you would look for and what managed to take you in to where you were manipulated mm-hmm. <affirmative> or intimidated, however, what are some of those signs and, and how did that, how did that actually occur with you? Tell a little bit about your story there so we get some background.
Speaker 0 00:10:32 Yeah. When I'm typically training law enforcement and social workers, I usually use a picture of the front cover of, if you give a mouse a cookie, cuz you know, we've all heard that book, we may maybe read it or read it, you know, had it read to us. If you give the mouse a cookie, then the mouse wants something else, right? And I think that's a very good example of what grooming is because a lot of people see you in your worst day. You know, maybe law enforcement, they encounter you for the fifth time on the street, you've been arrested and they don't understand how you got where you are and why you keep going back or why you won't leave as it seems. And they don't understand that it started with something really small. That, that traffickers are extremely skilled at manipulating their victims and engaging their attachment circuitry.
Speaker 0 00:11:16 Actually get to do trainings today with Dr. Chris Wilson. He's a psychologist out of Portland, Oregon. And we team up and we do eight to 16 hour training. So multiple day trainings on the neurobiology of trafficking, how coercion can feel like choice. And I love doing those trainings are my favorite because a few reasons. One of which is that, um, it's very empowering for me as a survivor to understand why I seemingly made the choices that I made. You know? And why did it feel like at one point I was choosing my own exploitation and to understand how my brain was designed to work and that my brain was just trying to keep me alive. Right? And those seemingly choices that I was making were actually just for survival in the moment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> interesting. And so, I mean, personally for me, um, I, like I said, I, I brother committed suicide at five, you know, sexually assaulted, um, at 11, bullied at 11, raped at 14, extremely depressed.
Speaker 0 00:12:13 Um, you know, just no, uh, no real support system around me. And, um, it, it, it was no wonder that I became vulnerable to a trafficker. Right. Uh, you know, which looked like, in my case, I was living with a bunch of drug dealers. I was homeless, I was a runaway, you know, I remember I was stealing food in order to eat every day. I couldn't get a job cause I was a high school dropout. And so I met this guy who seemed like he was gonna get me away from this bad situation I was in, you know? And the first day was great, you know, he told me all of his dreams, which were, he was just an aspiring musician, and he wanted to get in the studio and record that hit single and we'd get it on the radio and life would be great. We'd all be rich and famous. And, and that would be awesome. And I had no idea, you know, what intentions he really had for me, you know? And he got me high all day. He had sex with me that night. And we woke up again the next day, got high again all day. And it was that second night that he would tell me to get in the car with the other two girls and they would show me the ropes.
Speaker 2 00:13:13 So was I, if you, if I may, when you were getting high, was this dumb stuff that you were taking that was familiar or was he introducing it to new substances?
Speaker 0 00:13:23 Um, no, that trafficker, I, I actually was already using, honestly, a lot of drugs to be numb. I just wanted to be numb with a life I was living. Fair enough. He did not necessarily introduce me to a lot of drugs. That is a common tactic, um, that traffickers will use, obviously to keep their victims in a constant state of being high, but also in a state of, you know, always, always needing more. Right. Needing that next high mm-hmm. <affirmative> and becoming dependent on the trafficker. Um, I guess fortunately for me, um, you know, I, I ran from that first trafficker having no clue. I ran to the arms of another man who would traffic me, but that second trafficker didn't want me to use any drugs. So, so it, it can go both ways. Right. My second trafficker was a much more professional pimp. He'd been in pimp 20 years from California before I ever even met him at the age of 17.
Speaker 0 00:14:11 And so he wanted me to stop drinking and stop smoking and stop using drugs to start working out, to start eating healthier foods. All these things that really felt like as a 17 year old girl that he loves me. Yep. He wants the best for you. He wants make me better. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Like, I knew those things were bad. I knew I shouldn't be using drugs. And, and here was this guy like actually investing into me. You know, I had no idea that he was only making me the most profitable he could. Right. He wanted to sell his victims to a much higher clientele. And he can't do that with stoned victims. You can't do that with, with addicts. And so he cleaned me up Right. And, and prepared me for the clientele that he wanted me to be sold to, but that first trafficker. Yeah. He didn't care. You could, could use any kind of drug. He, he didn't care.
Speaker 2 00:14:54 How did the, how did you bypass the logic to, to do that? I mean, you went from one to the next, so something told you, get out of here because some, something intuitive told you, this is not me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the first guy, and then, and this went on from the second one on for many, many, many years. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how does, how does that justification happen from one to the next? Or is it just really slow?
Speaker 0 00:15:23 I think you said something interesting. You said bypass that logic and I think that's a really, um, common way that an average person would see the situation. Totally. For sure. And and I think probably a lot of the listeners, right? A lot of the viewers are gonna think that as well. But when you have someone that's like literally surviving from day-to-day, being raped, beaten, robbed every single day, you're not thinking with your logical brain. And so what, what I know from the brain science is that while you're experiencing complex compounded trauma, you're in survival mode. Right? Our brains are built, we have our survival, our mammalian brain, right? The, the lower part of our brain that does our, our most basic functions. And then obviously the upper part of our brain does our more logical thinking. And while you're going through that kind of trauma, the, the prefrontal cortex, the logical part of your brain doesn't completely shut down, but it is severely impaired. And that's been proven with m R I studies and things like that.
Speaker 2 00:16:20 It's hard to make sense outta something that intense and that
Speaker 0 00:16:23 Exactly
Speaker 2 00:16:24 Like it's happening so fast. And so
Speaker 0 00:16:26 Like every single day I'm thinking, how do I not get arrested? How do I not get raped? How do I not get beaten? Right? Like, how do I not get robbed? Like every single day I'm trying to stay alive, literally trying to live. And so when we think from the outside, I think it's, you know, un unless you've lived through experiences that were completely out of your control, and you know what that feeling is, I don't think many people relate to it when they don't understand. Right. And so it wasn't bypassing logic. It was, how do I stay alive in this moment? So for me, running from my first trafficker, I honestly contemplated suicide every single day. I was with my first pimp for about two months or so. And, um, I, I got to this point, you know, where I just wanted to die, you know, it had worked for my brother and it was always a solution in my head that I could just end my own life.
Speaker 0 00:17:13 And, um, I, I remember meeting this guy. I thought he was gonna be a trick in a parking lot, a strip club parking lot. And, um, he, he didn't turn into a trick, which means a sex buyer. That's what we call sex buyers. Okay. Um, and so I gave him my phone number, the, or he gave me his phone number, sorry. And I started sneaking around to pay phones to call this guy. And I remember weighing those two options when I thought about running, it was either commit suicide or give this guy a try. Maybe he would be that love, right? That that romantic interest, that partner, you know, cuz I knew I couldn't do it alone. I was 17 high school dropout, right? Like using drugs. Like I, I knew I was floundering and needed help. I, I just didn't wanna reach out to my family cuz I knew, I thought they would judge me and shun me. You know, I knew they would just probably throw me back in the girls home, you know, throw me back in jail that they had put me in. And so I, I had this, and also, you know, you have this idea that like, no, I just wanna make it on my own. You know, when you're a that teen, those teenage years, and
Speaker 2 00:18:12 The longer it goes, the more that becomes a prominent thought too. You're like, now I'm 20 something, now I'm whatever, 30 mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now you really feel like you need to be self-sufficient, independent, right?
Speaker 0 00:18:21 Yeah, definitely. And, and so I, at one point, you know, this guy, he was 20 years older. Like I said, I started sneaking around a payphone to call him. And at one point a woman answered his phone, but he told me it was his secretary. And here I was, I was literally starved by my first trafficker. I only had enough front money each night, meaning the amount of money that he would allow us to have an our pocket, um, to stop at the gas station and get like a candy bar and a coke. Many days, that would be all I would have to eat all day. Um, maybe if it was a good night on the track, which is the blade or the known area of prostitution, if it was a good night at work, um, then I would maybe flirt with the dudes at the Burger King, me and the other girls would to try to get free food from them.
Speaker 0 00:19:01 Um, and that would be what I had to eat every single day. And so, you know, I, I was in this miserable situation and, um, here was this new lifeline of someone that I thought was cute, right? And I thought, well, maybe I can give this guy a try. I can always kill myself later as I, I remember making that decision. And so I ran into the arms of, of that guy, you know, and he groomed me for months. You know, looking back, I realized that he was just waiting until I turned 18. Um, but what felt like to a 17 year old vulnerable kid was, wow. He took me to this huge fancy, almost, you know, 4,000 or so square foot home in Denton, Texas. He had all these nice cars. He wanted me to stop drinking, stop smoking, right? All those things that we already discussed, that wow.
Speaker 0 00:19:48 Like, this guy is somebody, he's successful by the world's terms, and I wanna do whatever he's doing. I wanna, you know, be an part of it. And so I, I really didn't know, right? Like, he, he didn't put me to work right away, you know, the, there was two other girls there, you know. So I began to understand the situation, obviously eventually, but it's kind of like when you get involved in a gang <laugh>, I don't know how many of your viewers have ever been jumped into a gang, but you don't just get to walk away. You don't just get to go, you know, like, ah, I changed my mind. Like that's, you know, right. Um, once you get in, you don't just get to walk away. And so, you know, what winds up happening is maybe you become a renegade, which means you run from your trafficker. That's a term that we use in the live. Okay. Or maybe you choose up, which is what they call it in the life, which somehow even the language, the vernacular connotates it. Somehow you're making a choice when in reality you're, you're just trying to survive. You're trying to find a, a pimp or a trafficker that maybe beats you a little less, or maybe maybe he buys you a nicer car, or maybe he lets you visit your family once a year or something.
Speaker 2 00:20:52 And so there were times where then you would see other girls who were already indoctrinated, and there were times where you'd visit your family and all those times you had such a level of threat over your head that even then you were not willing to speak out
Speaker 0 00:21:08 A hundred percent. Even going to federal prison, I wasn't willing to speak out. I was way too scared that, you know, that he would kill me, that he would hunt me down and kill me. So the thought of telling anyone, or leaving him and running away was horrifying to even think about, let alone make a planet of action
Speaker 2 00:21:27 Because you didn't have any resources. So if you ran, you'd be just living in behind a dumpster somewhere. You didn't have anywhere to go essentially, is what you're
Speaker 0 00:21:35 Saying. Yeah. Nowhere to go. And I mean, ultimately when I was contemplating running, which I did, obviously I'm sitting here, you know, today, but I had a million dollars of debt in my name. Literally. I, I don't mean that figuratively. I, um, had no job experience. I was a high school dropout, only got my G e D because the prison made me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, a huge gap in employment. Um, cush, I mean, criminal record, been arrested 10 times, had a federal felony. So I think a lot of people look at us from the outside and like, well, you could leave if you wanted. He's not with you all the time, but they have no idea, you know, the, the actual barriers as well as the trauma and all the different things going on in your brain that make you feel like for sure you can't get away.
Speaker 2 00:22:16 For sure. And that's kind of what I was trying to get at. Do you always see that, you know, in abusive relationships or whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative>, why don't you just leave? That's not, that doesn't compute to somebody who's been there. So I, I appreciate you explaining that. And from a law enforcement perspective too, I find it interesting too. Law enforcement gets way too much credit, I think, because when they deal with mentally ill or trafficked victims and they're expected to be able to discern who's going through what, there's almost no way for them to do that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in this instance, it was at the same, the same reason why you wouldn't tell a law enforcement officer why you're struggling or does as you would with your friends or family at that point.
Speaker 0 00:22:55 Pretty much. Well, I mean, in the game, you know, when you're, while you're being sexually exploited, um, you law enforcement's the enemy, you know? Right. It's, you know that as long as you don't say anything, they don't know anything. And, uh, all these things that your brainwashed into believing and, and traffickers tell you that all they're gonna do is threaten you. And if you keep your mouth shut, then you're gonna get outta jail tomorrow. Yeah. And so that's all you have to do. And when law enforcement picks you up, or they encounter you on the street and they threaten you, then they just made you the trafficker, the truth teller. Right. And that now I'm gonna believe everything he has to say. When I went to federal prison for my pimp, he bought a federal attorney for me. He paid 20, $30,000 for a federal attorney. I met with my attorney for less than five minutes the entire 13 months I was locked up. Wow. He controlled everything from the outside
Speaker 2 00:23:42 Of course. You know, that's in his bit's interest too. Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:23:45 I never even heard a deal. Right.
Speaker 2 00:23:47 Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and so we also get approached, I say we, I, one of my companies is a, is a security company, a security firm. And we used to get more than we do now, but we get constant barrage of calls of these organizations that want to leverage our people to go rescue mm-hmm. <affirmative> Suffolk, sex trafficked mm-hmm. <affirmative> victims. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And even then I was like, this doesn't make sense to me why you would put people at risk, both the people that you're trying to enter into their home and the the people that are doing the entering Yeah. And pull them out without doing something to follow that up. Because it's, it is cyclical. Right. I mean, if had someone, did someone first of all ever do that and had they done it, what would you have done?
Speaker 0 00:24:34 Two things. I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about what law enforcement would say that would irritate me. But as far as that question, um, physical freedom does not equal emotional or mental freedom. So even if you pluck kid or person out of trafficking, out of a dangerous situation, if they weren't ready to leave, it's, it's kind of very much like a drug addiction. That's true. You know, we all have to hit our own rock bottom, and that looks different for everyone, dependent on what your life looked like before this situation that you're in now. And for a lot of people, we see them in a horrible situation and we're like, oh my gosh, how could you be there when the rest of their life was 10 times worse than that? This is the best, horrible situation they've been in. And so we don't understand that going into it, but, but yeah, taking somebody out that physical freedom isn't gonna magically make them better and they're not gonna be thankful most likely.
Speaker 0 00:25:24 I mean, we do have those cases where people are actually kidnapped or actually kept in cr trait crate dog crates and chains. And we have seen those cases, but those are the rare exceptions. You know, most often in America, it looks like your boyfriend, it looks like someone you love coming alongside you and offering you help. And so when someone steals you away from that person, that doesn't break those ties you have with that person. There's a lot of work that has to be done. Um, I also wanted to say with law enforcement, I never really had favorable interactions with law enforcement. Those 10 times I was arrested, uh, I was, I was degraded. I was treated like a piece of trash from the street. I was, um, talked down to. I remember I would inevitably get the young cute cop who would pick me up and on the way to jail, he would say something like, you're too pretty to be doing this.
Speaker 0 00:26:12 Why are you doing this? Which I just scoffed at back then. And what my answer was, was like, you idiot, I do it because I'm pretty, I couldn't do it if I was ugly. Duh. Like, you know, first of all, don't, don't talk about my beauty that's being exploited every single day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And, and one of the questions that we, one of the things we train law enforcement on has never asked that question why? Right. Because why is a judgment when you're saying, why you're telling me obviously what I did was wrong and now I have to explain to you why I did something wrong and hope that you understand it versus, versus asking a more trauma informed question, which is like, tell me more about what you were thinking when X, y, Z happened. Right. Because that's gonna get a lot more of the picture in a non-judgmental way. And so that's one of the things I get to train law enforcement today, thankfully. And I have a lot of amazing law enforcement partners today. I know we've, we've made a lot of progress, but good. The rural areas and, and, um, kind of the old guard, um, still needs some work across the country. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:06 It's gonna take a while to get out and we gotta know generation of cops now that have an, a whole new set of problems. So Yes. <laugh>, I'm, I'm glad that you're putting your 2 cents in cuz we need it. One of the questions I was curious about is the way you described how you essentially ran away and then as a kid you're trying to survive so you're essentially poor. Yeah. So how much of this industry that you saw, I I know that there are levels that you've described mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how much of it do you think is a reflection of victims that are stricken with, that are poverty stricken and and are some of the traffickers actually poor? Where does it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where does that start? Is that part of a culture of, uh, you know, a socioeconomic culture where they find an opportunity like a gang member member would, where they could do something else? Is this another one of those things where if you would've just put so much effort into working it to manager McDonald's, you could have a better career now mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, or is it, is it so rampant that that's an ignorant question to ask? I mean, is it, does it start at the top also?
Speaker 0 00:28:10 Um, I, I mean it does. There's, there's varying levels like you mentioned, and, uh, you know, the, the vast, the overwhelming majority worldwide, when you look at, I'll say the issue of prostitution, because you can't have sex trafficking without prostitution, <laugh>, you know, so if we look at worldwide, the disproportionately black and brown girls are affected, even though they make up a much smaller percent of the population mm-hmm. <affirmative> people from homelessness, poverty, like you said, you know, it is people with disadvantaged backgrounds most often, not always, like in my case, I came from a good family. My, you know, parents are still married. Like I grew up in a, you know, very, um, I think middle class area, you know, and, and so it, it doesn't mean that's always the case, but d we, um, you know, that tho those people are definitely disproportionately represented among trafficking victims.
Speaker 0 00:29:01 Um, but, but it does happen, you know, at all levels. Like, I mean, obviously look at the, the Robert crafts like going in and, you know, to massage parlors, right. And, and getting sexual services mm-hmm. <affirmative> from trafficking victims inside a massage parlor that can't even speak English. Um, you know, so, you know, that's would be another example. Obviously we have the huge scandal with Epstein and Jolene Maxwell and looking at what they were doing to young vulnerable kids, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to a very, uh, different, um, clientele though. And, you know, much like my second pimp, he didn't want a drug using street walker. You know, he wanted someone that was classy and that could, that could walk in those crowds and, and have those conversations.
Speaker 2 00:29:42 Okay. But he still popped you up mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which, and you technically, I know your upbringing was one way, but once you were on your own mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you were poor and mm-hmm. <affirmative> desperate and didn't know how to manage yourself. So when you come in from the top, are they still mostly manipulating people that are in those situations? I can understand where when you are stricken with poverty and disadvantage, then more than likely you have a circumstance that would allow for that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But is there, are there circumstances where somebody's just literally stepping out of their parents' home rich and stepping into a different level of this?
Speaker 0 00:30:21 I mean, I'm sure it does happen, but it would probably be those kind of, kind of rare occasions. Rare it's, you know, when someone has vulnerabilities that a trafficker can manipulate and pretend to meet. You know, a lot of people don't understand that traffickers offer instant acceptance and love. And when you're a vulnerable, hungry kid, that's really hard to not accept. You know, you're, you're going to accept it cuz it feels good. Um, and so somebody without those same vulnerabilities, you know, doesn't mean that they, doesn't mean that they can't become trafficked, obviously, but it would, it would definitely be a different set of grooming, you know, or recruiting tactics and things like that. And it would more likely, you know, I mean, when I, when I train law enforcement on and recruiting tactics, you know, um, traffickers often use the idea of travel. They use the idea of making a ton of money. You know, there's always some dream that's sold to the victims that, okay, well this is what you can do for now, and this is our big pie in the sky dream that we're gonna achieve later. Yeah. Together we're gonna work there together, but this is how you contribute. Um, and so I think with somebody that did come maybe from a different background, they would still be vulnerable to some of that, right? If they, if they were vulnerable.
Speaker 2 00:31:31 It's mostly age. That's usually it's the age more so the naivety that comes with being mm-hmm. <affirmative> 17, 16, 15, 18, whatever. Right.
Speaker 0 00:31:40 Well, and there's a lot of research now about how traffickers intentionally target people with, um, uh, disabilities and I mean, yeah. So I mean, you know, autistic, right? I mean, you name it, you know, different people that are struggling with, with various issues that traffickers intentionally target them because like you said, you know, like a young person with a being, being naive to the way the world works and, and what you're actually getting yourself into.
Speaker 2 00:32:04 What do you say to people who make a, an argument for legalized prostitution? Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:32:14 That's a, that's a huge battle of mine <laugh>, that I have decided to take on in many different ways. Um,
Speaker 0 00:32:22 I think it's frustrating. I think it's very frustrating that people want to package up oppression as though somehow it can be a normal job when, you know, when whose job ever exposes you to rape every single day to murder, I mean, to, to STDs every single day. I mean, that's not a job like any other. And I think, you know, the only place in this country where we do have legalized prostitution is in the state of Nevada. And a lot of people think that if you legalize prostitution, that somehow you can make it safer and healthier. Why was actually trafficked through the legal system of prostitution in Nevada. My pimp, my second pimp would send us to the brothels, the, the only place where there is legal prostitution mm-hmm. <affirmative> in licensed brothels in seven different counties in Nevada. And he would send us there as a form of punishment.
Speaker 0 00:33:11 If we weren't making enough money or if we were getting arrested too much and being noticed by law enforcement too much, he would send us to the brothels to be controlled by those pimps. And he knew that, you know, even though they'd be taking half the money, we would still be forced to work and it would get us out of town for a little while, and then he would call us out of the brothel. And so, you know, I as a trafficked person, that that did work in a legal brothel, I can say it does not remove trafficking. You know, when you think about, um, you know, law enforcement's ability to intervene in human trafficking scenarios, you know what, what I believe the correct solution is, is what we call the equality model. There's a, a great website with more information about it. It's called equality model us.org.
Speaker 0 00:33:52 And that website, it, it's basically the Swedish model or the, the Nordic model, or two other words. Um, okay. Same, same thing where we no longer pros prosecute people in prostitution, but instead we go after the people that are buying them that are creating the demand. Right? So when you think about economics, demand equals supply. Right? Right. And, and un the unfortunate truth is that American men are the number one consumer of sex worldwide American men purchase sex. And so when we look at Nevada as a case study, you know, it's been a 50 plus year case study now of what legal prostitution does. And all we, we have to look no further than Las Vegas because prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas. But anybody that's been there knows you can't walk more than two feet down the strip without being handed a, a card passed in your hand of it's, you know, girlilla and a bikini, right? Yeah. Offer an escort service. And so because of the legal market in Nevada, it has increased the illegal market to 63% higher than the next highest state. And that's what we see in Las Vegas, that illegal market, that traffickers are always gonna bring in a steady supply of victims to come in and meet that insatiable demand for
Speaker 2 00:35:01 Sex. So how much of prostitution, I think a lot of that question by the way, uh, is posed by men too, again, who have a different perspective of this whole thing. Um, and and a lot of these questions come from ignorance because they're, again, it's, it's the why don't you leave scenario. Yep. It's not, you can't use someone else's logic Yes. On your situation. Right, right, right. Um, so how much of, if, I don't know if eradicating prostitution is even possible, but moving to eradicate it as much as we can, as as, as a goal of yours perhaps, and how much of prostitution as a whole, and we, when we talk about the Robert Kra situation, we've got the, you know, the everything from brothels to a massage parlor to someone out in the streets in Dallas. How much of that is, would you, would you consider voluntary from the female?
Speaker 0 00:36:04 You know, that's really hard. You know, um, when you look at studies on prostituted people, Melissa Farley has put out some amazing research on prostituted people across the world. And, um, there's this continuum because we know that the average age of entry research varies. So anywhere from 11 to 17, we'll say a lot of research says 12 to 14. Um, but it's, it's very hard to get obviously, accurate statistics on a crime. Right. People don't report, you know, or report honestly, or report at all. Um, and so, but when we look at that research of people that have been trapped, um, most often they entered as, as a minor, which automatically means human trafficking. That's the, the legal definition of you are under the age of 18, and in prostitution you are a trafficking victim. You are not a child prostitute. There is no such thing. And so w you know, they entered as trafficking victims then, right. If they entered as a minor and you don't just magically get out at your 18th birthday, you know, so you stay in and whether you have a trafficker or not. And so, you know,
Speaker 2 00:37:04 When you, and then voluntary becomes the question, because like you said, you might have been considered voluntary, right? Because you refused to leave. Right. But it was deciding whether or not you were gonna die today or tomorrow as to whether or not you were gonna leave. It wasn't a matter of saying, I enjoy the, the disposition I'm in.
Speaker 0 00:37:20 Right? And I mean, even when I did run for my second trafficker, I still stayed in the game because I was facing all those barriers I mentioned earlier, and I had no options for a future. And so I knew how much money had passed through my hands, I knew how much money I could make, and now I didn't have some pimp taking it all from me. But I mean, you cannot legalize the violence out of prostitution. Violence is inherent. You know, when you, when you have, when you become a commodity, right? When someone pays you for your body, you cease to be a human being to them. You are paid to not have emotions. You are paid to not speak, and you are paid to get up and leave. And that is obviously the definition of dehumanization right there. And so, I, I can't tell you right, like how many fist fights I've been in with grown men that probably ran businesses.
Speaker 0 00:38:04 I mean, that could have been either one of you guys, but that didn't get what they wanted out of me in a sex transaction. Or maybe the experience didn't last as long as they hoped it would, and then they either wanted to rape me again or beat me up and rob me and take their money back. You know, so when, when you've been dehumanized from by someone, you know, by being commodified, like they can do anything they want to you. And honestly, like I believe people are not products, right? We're all humans, we're all, you know, we all have inherent worth and dignity, and we all deserve a future that doesn't revolve around our bodies being sold. You know, to have to lay on your back and open your legs and do things for people that you would never, you know, even talk to in, in public.
Speaker 0 00:38:45 Honestly, I believe that consent goes out the window when you introduce an influencer as powerful as money. And when you, when you bring money into the, the transaction, um, that if I don't s I can't feed my kids. If I don't sleep with you, if I don't, you know, perform oral sex on you, then I won't be able to pay my rent. You know? I mean, those really aren't choices. And what we know about that research from Melissa Farley on prostituted people is that the vast majority of them, you know, overwhelming 90 plus percent, um, some studies vary, have been sexually assaulted as children. And so we have people that have been victimized from their childhood that now seem to be making this choice. You know? And, and I can't say that all people in prostitution are in sex work, um, have have negative experiences. I I I think there might be a slim minority of people that, that truly have choices and that truly choose to live that lifestyle. But there will never be enough willing women that want to be prostitutes to meet the demand for commercial
Speaker 2 00:39:47 Sex. I mean, an actual industry that could be a successful
Speaker 0 00:39:50 Industry. Exactly. Yeah. And the, I mean, you know, when you look at the research, it's a slim minority of most often white women that come from advantage backgrounds and that truly do, like I said, have choices and choose that lifestyle when, you know, we, we, we don't wanna make a, a rule for the f the few, the minority when the vast majority are people that aren't there by choice, right. And that are there for e either dire circumstance or forced fraud or
Speaker 2 00:40:12 Courage. And that doesn't mean there's not trauma behind that rich white woman either. Totally. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, and that's not being accusatory or whatever. Again, I'm just, I'm here to learn like anybody else <laugh>, but it seems like that would be a choice that would be really suspect to me as well. Um, so what about maybe what kind of music you listen to now and the effect on some of the music that promotes it? This is gonna date us too, because being old folks, it's easy to preach about you, youngsters quit listening to that stuff, it's influencing you, right. You know, but some of the stuff is so absolutely crass and, and, and a glorification of this kind of industry. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what are your thoughts on that and what are your thoughts on, on what you, what you listen to? Do you listen to anything even remotely close to that?
Speaker 0 00:41:01 I mean, you know, while I was in the life, I was really only allowed to listen to pimp music. We listen to a lot of E 40, a lot of sugar free, a lot of just normalizing the lifestyle and then pimp movies and things like, there's lots of movies. Heck, ice Tea has made a movie about teaching men how to pimp other women, you know? So, I mean, there's a, there's a lot of content out there, unfortunately that is extremely derogatory towards women and really just grooms you to be in the game. It grooms you into this mindset that your value is what someone is willing to pay you for your body. And I, I think there's a lot of stuff out there still right now. There's a lot of, you know, up and coming, like hip hop female artists that glorify that type of life.
Speaker 0 00:41:42 Yet when you hear them in interviews, they say like, oh my gosh, I, I've been beaten up, I've been raped, I've, you know, all these negative life experiences. Yet they wanna promote that lifestyle to kids. You know, I had the opportunity to debate a, a pro-sex worker, her name's Bella Robinson out of, um, Rhode Island. And, uh, as we were debating at T C U for about an hour long, um, session, um, I sat there and I, I listened to what she had to say, and she was angry and she had a lot of negative experiences with law enforcement. And she was so angry that midway through I like stopped and like apologized to her on behalf of all the negative law enforcement experiences that she'd had. And I had some of my good law enforcement partners in the room, and I was able to shine light.
Speaker 0 00:42:25 Like, they're not all that way, thankfully. But long short of the story is that she had figured out a way to make sex work safe after 20 years, which is, she'd been addicted to crack cocaine for 10 of those years, but now she had figured out a way to make it safe, which was by only seeing repeat customers and only working during the daytime. So you're gonna tell me that you're advocating for an industry that took you 20 years to figure out how to navigate it safely. And the only way you can navigate it safely is by only working during the day and only seeing repeat clients. And, and that to me just said it all right there. Like, I don't even have to argue at that point. Right. Why would we ever promote something, you know, that you're gonna have to take 20 years, 10, 10 being addicted to hardcore drugs and, and, and then living that kind of lifestyle. Like, I, I wouldn't wish that lifestyle after, after living it for a decade myself. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
Speaker 2 00:43:18 Yeah. And how would you find those repeat customers without trial and error? Yep, exactly. You're gonna have, even if you're, you're following her, your map Yep. To success, you're gonna have bad ones and say, okay, that's no longer repeat, but you have to experience it first. Yep. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> just never worth it. That's interesting. So I think we have, um, Holly here, who, who has a question, this is as good a place as any, cuz I know you had mentioned, um, when we mentioned we were gonna have Becca in here, that you had a question.
Speaker 3 00:43:46 Yeah. It was kind of like towards the beginning of like, whenever your life took kind of a fork in the road. And you had mentioned that when you were sexually assaulted at the age of 14, you blamed yourself because you snuck out. And so you thought that that's, you know, you know, why is something bad and you never told anyone, which is completely understandable. And then, you know, after a series of other events at 17, you decided to run away. So my question was, um, being in that space of, you know, you were afraid to tell someone, you know, at 14 and knowing that when you snuck out, you know, something bad happened, what is it that made you run away since, you know, it's kind of, you know, along the same lines of, you know, you snuck out at 14 or whatever and you're, you, you're out in, you know, doing whatever it is. But then at 17 your mindset was, I'm gonna run away from home. Is it because you were afraid that your parents would find out? Or like, what was it that made you take that, um, leap of I'm just gonna leave and not look back?
Speaker 0 00:44:55 Um, so I had a lot of different vulnerability factors that, that rape at 14 was a huge one. But ultimately, um, you know, my parents, they tried to save me and they, they put me in a, they signed over their rights to me and, and placed me in an institution in East Texas, which is a jail at the age of 16. And so when they did that to me, you know, honestly, obviously looking back, I realized they had no idea how to help me and they thought maybe these people would, and they didn't want me to die, like their thundered. And so they were trying to do the best they could. But what it looked like for me, I was already living on my own. I had already moved outta their house at the age of 16. I didn't ask them for anything. I felt like how dare they betray me and come and put me in this institution.
Speaker 0 00:45:36 And so that was the, the pendulum swing for me was when they placed me in that institution, I wound up being in there for about six months and then made a vow to myself that I would work the program and do whatever I could to run and, and never look back. And that's what happened. So I had a, a few day visit at my parents' house in, in Keller, which is where I was raised. And, um, that, uh, the last night, you know, I called my friend and said, you gotta come, you know, knock on the front left window of, of the house at 1:00 AM tonight, park around the corner so nobody sees your car. And that's exactly what happened, you know, 1:00 AM get the knock on the window. And I literally broke the blinds on my way out and I ran around the corner to their car and I never looked back. I hated my family for what they had done to me. I felt completely abandoned, betrayed, rejected by them, and I didn't want anything to do with them. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 00:46:20 Yeah. So have you restored your relationship today with your family?
Speaker 0 00:46:24 Yeah, yeah. We touched on that lightly earlier, but I do have a great relationship. You know, obviously I've been able to now as a, as an adult that's not exp experiencing trauma, you know, look back at those experiences and, and have grace and compassion and realize that they were doing the best they could with what they had in the moment. And, you know, that they didn't know all those things that happened to me. I mean, I kept them at arms length. I thought, you know, I would get in trouble if I shared the truth with them. And so thankfully today, you know, I have amazing relationship. I wouldn't be able to do, you know, a quarter of what I've done today as a single mom without the support of my family. Um, they all actually, we were all just celebrated. We were watching the Super Bowl. It was a big game, I should say yesterday.
Speaker 4 00:47:07 <laugh>, you could say it on this podcast, nobody cares.
Speaker 3 00:47:10 <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:47:11 Um, you know, we were all just together yesterday watching this, the, um, super Bowl and um, you know, I, I think no family's perfect, right? There's still things you know, but
Speaker 3 00:47:22 Oh, trust me, there's one in every family. Trust me, <laugh>. Yep, yep,
Speaker 0 00:47:26 Yep.
Speaker 2 00:47:27 So that's interesting. So that, cuz that was one one of the things that, that you had touched on earlier when she was bringing up that question to me, which Hy was hypothetical obviously, cause it was for you, was the amount of fear and consequence that you experienced when you snuck out the first time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> ended up being another set of fear and consequences over here. So that, that explains a lot. Um, and ultimately this is kind of what, what I'm looking for is how does someone like you who is obviously resilient, similar to Holly's resiliency and coming through something that's traumatic and then having a successful life. Talk a little bit about, if you even know what that is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what is it that makes you resilient when so many other people who have been through a traumatic situation, some even are minuscule in comparison, who absolutely cannot get off the snide. What is it that makes you resilient or that could help others be resilient? I know you've got some programs that you work with and stuff. Can, what, can you shine some light on that for me?
Speaker 0 00:48:31 Um, you know, I wish that there was like this magic formula, you know, because then we could give it to everybody. And unfortunately there's not, when you look at studies on resilient people, uh, a huge common thread of all those studies is that resilient people had someone in their childhood or in their lives before that were actually empathetic to them. And that's really sad when you think about the reality of all the people then that aren't as lucky at being resilient. That means they never had anyone treat them with empathy. Right. Never had a trusted, uh, mentor or parent type figure for them. Um, so, so in my case, and I don't, I don't know about yours, Holly, but in mine, I, I had good parents. I mean, I, I was raised mostly good. Yeah. There was bad things that happened, but, but I, I still had this moral compass.
Speaker 0 00:49:21 I I still had the, you know, a lot of foundational understanding. And, um, so I think that's one way. And then for me, like I mentioned, you know, faith was a big part of, of resilience for me, of being able to believe in something bigger than myself and believe that even in all the tragedy, um, and pain, that there is a purpose and that there's a higher calling because of it. That these are things that I was able to, that I was, you know, that I walk through. But now look what I get to do today with those experiences. And it's, it's something beautiful that I've been able to take from the dark into the light and be able to help other people. And, and I think that is a, a big reason for my resilience too. One of the other victims that was with my second pimp, she was there 25 years.
Speaker 0 00:50:03 I was able to help her escape a week before my son was born in 2012. And she chooses to not tell people, well, number one, she chooses to not identify as a trafficking victim. She tells people she was in a domestically violent marriage for 25 years. And, and that's fine. That's her choice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we don't all come out and need to be speakers or need to be advocates, but, um, unfortunately, she inevitably deals with the side effects, um, from P T S D, right? Mm-hmm. And so when you don't admit that you've been through something, then you don't heal from it because you don't bring it into the light and you don't, you know, look at it and examine it and it, and get therapy when you think, Nope, it's just domestic violence. And so unfortunately, I think she deals with a lot of side effects that maybe she wouldn't have to if she could at least get help, you know, admit what happened. Right.
Speaker 2 00:50:47 And I think maybe another example, just based on what you said, your son was another way of you looking outside yourself for some of that healing as well. Is that, is that a hundred percent true
Speaker 0 00:50:57 Statement? Yes. I, I'm honestly, I, I would've never thought, I would never even have tried to have a normal life. Like, I didn't think I deserved any better. I thought my life had been ruined. I never thought I could do anything different, and I just thought I was gonna be a criminal for the rest of my life. And then when I got pregnant, it was this huge wake up call of like, wow, because I did have compassion on that little baby mm-hmm. <affirmative> inside me mm-hmm. <affirmative> that he didn't ask for any of that, you know? And I didn't want any of my future, any of my kids' future to look anything like my past. And because of that, I was willing to break out and to, to be vulnerable. You know, I think a lot of people that have experienced trauma like this, you know, being vulnerable means you're gonna be victimized. And the very tool that you need to be able to heal and be resilient is to be able to learn how to be vulnerable. Again. It's, it's to learn how to let other people into your pain and Right. To ask for help and to accept help. And that's a very hard thing for people that have been victimized
Speaker 2 00:51:54 By the woman. I can't imagine. And it's just about at that point, discernment. Cuz you gotta learn again, how to identify who these perps are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because you said they're usually disguised. Is there any kind of standard way that you could tell an average mom of a, a nine year old girl? Like, here are some things you need to look out for? Generally speaking,
Speaker 0 00:52:14 I mean, I think people, you know, um, especially, you know, obviously guy most often it's, you know, men that are trying to traffic, right? Young girls initially at least. But, you know, trying to fast track the relationship, right? Like I mentioned, traffickers offer instant acceptance and love and, and what that looks like to a 17 year old kid is, you can move to my house, you can have my food. Right? All these things are, you're fast tracking the relationship to get your to, to seem to meet these vulnerabilities. And
Speaker 2 00:52:41 So, but a super good guy could do that too.
Speaker 0 00:52:43 It could happen. Yes, it could. Um, I, and I won't even pretend to rattle off a bunch of red flags for you guys. The, um, attorney General of Texas has some amazing red flags. I don't know if you can link it in the comments. Okay. But they've, I, I've looked at 'em myself and I'm like, oh, that's great. A great resource for parents to be, to get educated. But I mean, most often today it takes place on social media. It takes place on your kids' phones. So if you're not having those conversations about somebody that fast tracks a relationship that seems too good to be true, or that is, you know, luring trying to lure you away and trying to get you to take bigger and bigger risk each time you connect with them, that they're, they're pulling you out, right? They're grooming you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 0 00:53:21 They're, they're using that if you give them mouse a cookie Right. Paradigm that I'm gonna gonna ask for something else, and now it's gonna be something else. And, um, we have to have those conversations with our kids. We have to ask them, you know, especially kids now, they, gosh, they accept friend requests from everybody because they wanna have the most, the biggest platform. Yeah. And, and they unknowingly, I mean, right now there's a huge, um, epidemic of young boys specifically being sexually exploited online. The Department of Justice just put out a press release about a month ago on the subject because these vulnerable people, right. All these, all these kids have become even more vulnerable due to the isolation of, you know, the, the pandemic that we've all been surviving the last couple years. But it's, it's gone. It's forced people to be on their phones and be more disconnected and which means you're, you know, at risk of, of being groomed and recruited online.
Speaker 2 00:54:08 Fascinating. So you're a difference maker mm-hmm. Change maker. So tell us a little about what, what you're doing now in order to impact life for the better.
Speaker 0 00:54:17 So, I mean, obviously I was able to get out, ultimately, I actually received a presidential pardon in, in December of 2020 from our former president. Um, that, uh, kind of gave me partial relief for, um, you know, being, being criminalized for my victimization mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but today I train law enforcement across the country. I'm in front of anywhere from five to 10,000 people a year, uh, sharing my story and, and training law enforcement on how to understand the mindset of victims, but also how to, how to better relate with them. The neurobiology trainings I mentioned to you. Fascinating. Um, and, and then over the last couple years, I, I actually finally put a stake in the ground and decided to found something. So, um, it's, we're almost at our year anniversary, and next week we'll have our first year anniversary of the Charleston Law Center, which is named after me, which I can't even, like, I'll cry right now if I even think about, like, it's awesome.
Speaker 0 00:55:08 It's big time, you know, having my name on a building, like what this is, um, I would've never thought, but we provide pro bono legal services to survivors of sexual and domestic violence in Nevada. Awesome. So we're in, in Reno in Las Vegas. And, um, I I, I, I brought up the presidential pardon in because I'm advocating and, uh, helping to lobby for a law to be passed that would provide federal vacate for trafficking victims like myself that have incurred federal felonies due to our experiences, because in reality, I shouldn't have had to get a pardon, you know, because it, it still shows up on my record. I just get to go, oh. But I have a shiny piece of paper that the president signed and he says, he forgives me for being a victim. Like,
Speaker 2 00:55:45 Hard to Yeah. That's hard. Great. Hard to make it go away in every search and everything else that you gotta work around.
Speaker 0 00:55:50 Exactly. And so vacate would provide that actual full relief. They would go back and redact records, it would be as though it never happened. And that would be, you know, justice, uh, in, in terms of that. But, um, there's other laws that I've advocated on, um, in the state of Texas. I got to law, uh, testify to help make, um, a bill passed that passed in September, became active September 1st, 2000, about two years ago. Um, don't make me do math right now, <laugh> <laugh>. But, um, that, that Bill made it, uh, Texas is a first state in America, um, to make it, it a, um, state jail felony the first time someone's caught purchasing sex. And I was thankfully able to testify on that bill to help it get passed. Um, and so there's a, there's a lot of impactful work that I've been able to, um, do, um, to this day. But I guess probably my most proud accomplishment is that I have a little boy that has been untouched by trauma so far, and he is an amazing little sweet, sweet kid.
Speaker 2 00:56:46 <laugh>. That's awesome. Well, congratulations. I'm proud of you without sounding condescending. Uh, but that's obviously what we do is try to share stories that can help, you know, positively impact the communities. And I think your story is fascinating. I think what you're doing with it is even more impactful. What, is there anything that we can do as our us or our audience to do to help you and your plight?
Speaker 0 00:57:09 I mean, definitely, uh, obviously we all have time, talent, treasure, right? There's something that we can all, all give. So I, this is what I do with my living. I'm more than happy if people wanna reach out and see how they can help and partner and help provide pro bono legal services to survivors, um, you know, in, in Nevada or be able to get plugged in. I am networked across the country, so I know a lot of orgs that are doing really great work. And so, I mean, whether you can volunteer and, and help out at an organization, maybe you can give money or, you know, maybe you have a skillset. You know, I always say, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. We don't all need to run out and start non-profits to help people. Right. You know, but we can give our own services. Maybe you do taxes. Well, maybe you could do taxes for survivors for free. Maybe you can, maybe you can employ a survivor and teach her how to do taxes. Right. That, so there's super, there's always creative things that you can do, um, with, with one of those three things. Okay. So I just encourage people Yeah. To get involved some kind of way.
Speaker 2 00:58:02 Well, that's awesome. Maybe I can put a link to somewhere where they can reach you or whomever to make that inquiry. And then that way maybe we can get some people reaching out to make a difference.
Speaker 0 00:58:11 Yeah. Yeah. Thank
Speaker 2 00:58:12 You. It's been an honor to have you, do you have anything else that you wanted to add? I mean, I know you've got two hours that you want to spend more with me, but <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:58:21 I think we kind of touched on everything. Can't think of anything else, did you?
Speaker 3 00:58:26 No, I just think you're, you're amazing, amazing person. I've never publicly told my story. I mean, I have, you know, I've obviously, I've told my husband and, you know, some friends and I in just recently, I would say in the last few years that, that I've been okay with, you know, saying things out loud. But, you know, I've never told publicly told my story. So people like you makes it okay for, you know, people that haven't, you know, because like you said, you, it's, everything is internalized and it's not until you kind of step away from it that you kind of, you know, think and, you know, figure out things in your life or whatever. And so, anyway, I I, you're definitely a hero to me for sure. And many other women. Thank
Speaker 2 00:59:14 You. And thank you for being here. It's an honor to have you.
Speaker 0 00:59:16 Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 5 00:59:17 What's it, what you going do? What you gonna do? Success around the second grade rules. A to make you do what they want.
Speaker 1 00:59:34 Want
Speaker 5 00:59:40 Is the one to see you through. Don't let those off. Just the game. Soul Glory.
