Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 The average tenure for major city chief now one to three years.
Speaker 1 00:00:04 Oh, wow.
Speaker 0 00:00:05 I just saw an article yesterday, the, uh, commissioner in for N Y P D 18 months. She's done, she's out. Um, we see it all over the country where chiefs are doing less and less time. And a lot of it is because of the, the increased pressures going through the de defund, the police movement dealing with covid and all the restrictions that were going on. There's so much of a, a, a cry for change and you know what, some things need to change. Yeah. But very little acknowledgement of the things that have changed. But it's just that one negative thing that happens, of course, that wipe out all of those as if they never even happened. And it, it's very frustrating.
Speaker 1 00:00:55 We all know about the police issues. We all know about community issues. We all know how difficult it is to meld the two so that we can become one again and have safer communities that cooperate with the police departments and vice versa. But what we don't know is how someone at the top of an organization can affect that change by exemplifying their humanity. And that's what this guest does. He's truly a human and a great leader and someone who authentically cares. So, welcome my brother, chief Neil Nokes. One of the things I thought I would start with, which is kind of almost jumping into the mud, is one of the questions I sent, um, where we often talk about how difficult it is on police officers to do investigations when we have to fight through the antis snitching culture and understanding how difficult it must be to feel like you're compelled to tell on someone.
Speaker 1 00:01:55 But you know, us not understanding that besides the fact that that is, uh, is kind of a street rule, you also have to go back and live next door to all these people. Yeah. You know, and there is a significant threat when you have to go back and live amongst the people that you just told on. Um, that being said, it's also, we've also talked about the culture within police work, and they talk about the blue line and everything else. And not that it's as rampant as it used to be, but it is certainly something that that gets brought up as there. What are your thoughts on how we can combat getting rid of the anti-itch culture within law enforcement? Because obviously law enforcement's only better for it if we get rid of the bad eggs.
Speaker 0 00:02:39 Yeah, that, that's a great, great question, Tegan. I've never heard anybody put it that way, but that correlation between the anti-itch culture and some communities, some would make the same correlation with at least the history of policing. And they're both, you know, something that's important I think to all of us in law enforcement. One, if I can talk about both that anti-itch culture that you see in some communities, there's a lot of reasons for that. I mean, everybody here is snitches get stitches, snitches are a dying breed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And to some people, they, they literally mean that. Yeah, somebody talks, somebody snitches, they're gonna handle business. So there's a, a direct fear there by some of the community. And you have to be as frustrating, as frustrating as it is. Cause we wanna solve cases. We have to understand the position that those members of the community are in.
Speaker 0 00:03:27 So we have that. But then we also have, on top of that, there's lack of trust with the police department in general in some communities. Right. So for us to really be able to do our jobs well, we have to have those connections with the community, the people who live there, who see where the issues are and can tell us where we need to focus our resources. So trying to get past both of those is difficult, but it's not impossible. Seeing that in, in law enforcement is absolutely unacceptable. And you wouldn't have to go that far back to see where that ran rampant. I think in a lot of, in a lot of agencies. I'm seeing the change though. I'm seeing the shift. You are. Okay. Uh, last month I had 23 years with the department. And I'll say even 23 years ago, things have changed since then.
Speaker 0 00:04:11 We've had multiple situations recently where there are officers who were engaged in conduct that was not acceptable. Whether it involved a, uh, use of excessive force, maybe just a rude treatment of someone, something that does not meet the standard we expect from all forward. Police officers, oftentimes we'll have citizens maybe who see it, that will report it to us. Sometimes they've got their phones out, it's on camera. It's right there. But we've seen multiple instances recently where officers step up and say something about other officers. And that's not easy to do, but especially when there's a seniority issue. Oh, absolutely. You know, there's a, the thing is, when you really, really look at it, though, the people who hate bad cops the most are good cops. They don't wanna see someone else tarnish the badge. They work so hard to earn and I mean earn.
Speaker 0 00:05:01 So we're seeing more who are willing to step up cause they wanna pro protect our, our profession. Yeah. The integrity of the integrity of our profession. And some people talk about we need to bring back the nobility of policing. Tegan had never left. It's always been here. We just have to remind people sometimes, because you could have 10,000 positive impacts with the community, just one can wipe all those away. So we have to make sure we stay on top of that as much as we can. And, and it's not just a culture shift that we're seeing and pushing and policing. It's in policy too. Uh, shortly after, uh, George Floyd was murdered, there was a push across the country for certain policies to address that duty to intervene reports. And what that means is, if you see an officer doing something like we saw in Minneapolis, somebody do something, one person, and we all saw for nine minutes, watched him kneel on this man's neck as he screamed and cried for his mother said he couldn't breathe.
Speaker 0 00:05:55 Right. Just sit there. But there were other officers on scene that did nothing to stop it. The only ones that even spoke up were the, the most, uh, uh, rookie. If you, if I can use that term, officers on the department saying, Hey, I'm, I'm kind of worried. He says he can't breathe. Or I'm worried about excited delirium. Maybe we should do something. But they were just pushed aside. Nobody listened. And part of it is you have this, if you have this mentality where seniority means so much, rank means so much. I don't care if it's a day one officer and it's a 20 year veteran sergeant. If that one day officer sees a 20 year veteran officer doing something wrong, they need to step in. They have a duty to intervene. And they have a duty to report it as well.
Speaker 1 00:06:34 To the extent that they in effect accept punishment or receive punishment for not reporting. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:06:41 They can actually receive punishment for a failure to act Okay. And say something, we've taken it a step further. Cause it's one thing to put it in policy, it's one thing to train it. Uh, just in a an academic setting, one of the, uh, most profound ways to train a police officer is what's called scenario-based training. We can sit and we'll look at a PowerPoint here, someone give a lecture, but until we actually do it, it doesn't become automatic. And when, when scenario-based training is done correctly, it elicits the same physiological responses you would feel if you were actually in the community doing it. What's important about that is when you're out there and you encounter something like this, you don't think, what did that PowerPoint say? You don't rise to the occasion, you fall back on your training. It's more
Speaker 1 00:07:23 Intuitive at that point.
Speaker 0 00:07:24 Exactly. Because if you've done the scenario based training and it's done correctly and we have an incredible facility, we got an incredible staff that does it. Right. Your body automatically remembers, Hey, I've done this. And in this training, uh, we hear deescalation and things like that all the time. We don't just teach those as standalone classes. Those are in everything we do. Yeah. Including this da duty to intervene. And in some of our scenarios, we have these, these recruits that are coming through that wanna be police officers. Maybe in a scenario with that 20 year sergeant who maybe is using excessive force and they are forced to make a decision, do I just sit back and let it happen? Cause I'm the new guy and I should respect this sergeant? Or do I say something and then we take it a step further. And some scenarios, maybe they do say something like they should, but if that doesn't work, we require them to use force themselves to stop it for, in other words. Mm-hmm. What we want to see is one that that brand new officer there in Minneapolis when he said something nothing changed, physically remove Yep. Derek Chauvin. Right. From George Floyd's
Speaker 1 00:08:24 Neck. That's what we all kind of wanted to see. Absolutely. Right. But, and you know, as well as I do, how difficult that is in that scenario, I think most of us would've done it. But when it's, um, when it's less abhorrent of something that you observe, it's, it's difficult because it is militaristic. The police force is set up in a militarized kind of a scenario where rank does mean something. It does. And when you're a new officer, you're so naive and half the things that you think you have to give a second thought anyway. Yeah. Cuz you're usually wrong. <laugh>. Exactly. Right. So I think that's, that's significant. And, and I wonder too, uh, there's probably no way to measure this, but it would be devastating for the first person to step up and report somebody who is their superior three times over and for it to fail.
Speaker 1 00:09:14 Yeah. Because it, it's possible. You know, it is may or may not be, uh, you know, a negligence or, or excessive force, or it might be, and it still comes back to haunt them. And then there're those people that are chastised for the remainder of their career. And that's, that's just a risk that they're gonna have to take. Which is why I appreciate in your case, saying it's an actual policy. Yes. So your job is at risk at the very least. Absolutely. If you're not willing to do it for, for humanity and for the sake of the job and the integrity of the job and the position you hold, then you at least have that going for you. Absolutely. Do you think, um, do you think some of the reporting, I mean, it's fascinating you put training in, and this is something that even, I mean, you're in a large department, um, but even small departments could do that type of training cuz it's Absolutely. And it only takes a, a room to set it up with experienced officers to do. Do you think some of it is the culture of the new people that are coming in that are also more inclined to look at policing differently than when we came on? Maybe
Speaker 0 00:10:18 No question about it. You know, a lot of people complain about this generation. Ev every generation complains about the next, maybe complains about the ones prior. Even when I look at millennials and the generation that's coming in now, I see a ton of promise. I see all kinds of possibilities. There are challenges, obviously. I mean, there are more transient workforce. You better get them in and prove that you care about them. And they're make, they're, they're contributing to something that's a bigger than themselves early on, more for the intrinsic value rather than the paycheck. They wanna go home saying, you know what, I, I, I think I made a difference today. They got to know that you care about them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. That they're not just a number in there. So you have to work harder to keep them. But what's the problem with that?
Speaker 0 00:10:55 Right. Uh, I think they're more aware and willing to speak out about injustices or inequality. They're, they're more accepting of people who don't look like them. Uh, I think, well, here's one of the biggest ones for me, and I struggle with this still work-life balance. We all we hear is, oh, I can't get them to work overtime. I can't get them to do this because they value their time with their family. Yeah. They value that work-life balance. You know what, that will lend its su uh, itself to a more sustained, uh, happy, successful career because they maintain that worklife balance for sure. So there is, there are a ton of advantages with it. But because of that, especially the willingness to, to see and speak out against injustices and inequality, I think they are more willing to come out and say, you know what? That's wrong.
Speaker 0 00:11:41 And something else, if I can just shift it slightly. Yeah. They're more willing to come out and say, you know what, I'm not all right. That is one of the biggest problems we have in law enforcement is we're, we're supposed to take care of everyone else. We're supposed to be the ones that have it under control all the time, despite the, the trauma we experience directly off duty and on duty. The vicarious trauma, we deal with what, dealing with other people's trauma. Right. We feel like we have to internalize it and just move on. Go to the next call. And the the saying used to be, suck it up. Go on. Right. Get your job,
Speaker 1 00:12:11 Rub dirt on it. Get back out there like you do in the
Speaker 0 00:12:13 Football field. Exactly. Don't mind. Just do your job. Right. That is so wrong. It has been for so long. And I think a lot of it, I don't know all the correlations, I don't have any scientific data, but the, the mental wellness of the country, since Covid has declined drastically. Uh, we we're social creatures we're not meant to be isolated. And I think it had a profound impact, not just on people's social lives, their educations, every, the relationships. We saw more of a decline then. So I think it's, it's critical now more than ever that we step up and do a thing we can in law enforcement to do away with the stigma to, for me, myself, to step up and say, you know what? There are plenty of times when I'm not all right and I've gotta reach out and get help and set the examples so others will step up and do the same.
Speaker 1 00:12:57 Yeah. It certainly made us reexamine and reprioritize things. Which is makes it interesting when you look at the workforce as a whole and how difficult it is to hire and maintain people. Yes. And I know you've talked about, um, your process. I mean, the police process is, is arduous. And a lot of police agencies I've seen from personal experience are shortcut a lot of the onboarding processes in order to get people on. Right. Because if it takes you three months to get on, they're gonna just become disinterested. Yes. And go take something else. And you're, you're also with the issue in policing to make that worse and exacerbate that problem. You, you have the stigma that's come with policing in the last 5, 6, 10 years, whatever it is. It's mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's progressively gotten less of a desirable profession for people. They're gonna come out of school or choose school and, and pick policing. So how, how are some ways that you've been able to combat that? Or have you been able to combat that in terms of turnover, which I know the investment in their time is significant, but the investment in, in a police agency's money is, is huge upfront also. Absolutely. And you've got guys that, that want to turn over. I've seen guys that have taken on what normally was a career and they're using as police work as a stepping stone to something else. <laugh>, how do you, how do you combat that?
Speaker 0 00:14:27 Well, there's so many questions in there, and they're all questions. All police chiefs across the country are dealing with, first I wanna say in Fort Worth, we're doing really well. Uh, when we have the civil service exam, which is the first step in becoming a police officer, we are still averaging around a thousand applicants every time we post. Hmm. Where some are doing everything they can just to bring in a few. We're still doing a thousand plus on, uh, pretty much every posting. One of the problems with recruiting, hiring, retention is the way we've always done it. And the thing is, why did we do it? Because that's the way we've always done it. I, I can't stand that way of thinking. We have to innovate, we have to be different. We have to try new things. We have to be willing to, to fail.
Speaker 0 00:15:10 Failure is an option. As long as you're failing forward, you're learning from it. Right? Yep. If you're too afraid to fail, you'll never try anything new. And we talk about the, the kinda officers we want. We want intelligent, professional, brave, compassion, compassionate, empathetic people that'll come in and do the job. We're not, we're not looking so much to hire law enforcers. We can teach 'em how to enforce the law. I need problem solvers. I need people who will come to a call no matter what they face. They don't just automatically think, I'm gonna arrest somebody. I'm gonna write a ticket and move on to the next caller. They think, how can I fix this? So this person never has this problem again. We're never returned to this. Go to the root issues. Try to fix it the best you can. It's hard to do when you're going call to call to call to call's a cause you're understaffed.
Speaker 0 00:15:49 That's a huge thing. Yeah. And that's huge. But if we do that in the long term, it actually helps. So if those are the kind of people we want, we gotta rethink the way we've been recruiting. If you look back when, you know, you and I were starting out, what did you see on recruiting flyers, recruiting pro poster. You saw guys repelling outta helicopters and machine guns. Right. Right. That's all this as cool. It's like Rambo sign up for swat. Exactly. Sign up for swat. Like, everybody that gets on the department comes to swat. And I'll tell you what I, let me break in there. We have got, in my opinion, the best SWAT team out there. They won tactical team of the year last year. Topnotch operators. Oh yeah. They are professional. They are compassionate. A lot of people don't understand the deescalation of things they do every single day to make sure very high stress, very high intensity situations are resolved peacefully. Yeah. It's incredible.
Speaker 1 00:16:34 Especially when they're going more prepared to have to kill someone than any of us.
Speaker 0 00:16:39 They have to be Right. Right. But rarely, rarely are weapons even fired. That's magnificent. That's because they plan and they execute like true professionals. Yeah. So what do we have to do when we're recruiting? What are we looking for? If, if that's not what we're looking for. Yeah. We'll get some people who are great at that because we do need to have those tactical teams. The only overwhelming majority are gonna be people who are front facing, people in the community, people who represent our department. We're looking for those top-notch sharp people who really wanna make a difference. So we've gotta look at different ways of recruiting. And I don't know if you saw our latest recruiting video. I haven't. It was kind of a, it was a used car salesman spoof, hilarious <laugh>. When the team was putting that together, they wanted to show me clips.
Speaker 0 00:17:19 And I said, no, let's wait till it's done. I wanna see the final product. They brought me in, they showed it to me, and they were all kind of giggling and laughing. I had this look of shock on my face. And I thought, oh my gosh, this has gotta be a joke. They're not serious. And when it was over, I just said this earlier, the thought that popped in my head was, we've never done it like this before. And as soon as that thought came in my head, I looked at him, I said, approved. And I got up and walked out. You sold yourself. I sold myself because I, all of a sudden I realized I've got that old school, uh, traditional mentality that's gonna hold us back. This may fail. We may fall face forward on this one, but let's try and see, because we never have tried it before.
Speaker 0 00:17:58 We may actually get something positive. It was overwhelmingly positive. The the reviews we got. Hm. One of the guys got, uh, officer Big B is who he is on the, uh, the videos. And his buddy Calzada was doing an interview and he was on Kelly Clarkson show. I mean, they, it went, it went national. What I found, people either absolutely loved it or they absolutely hated it. And I found the majority of the people who hated it were my age and older. But everybody younger than me loved it. And guess what, I'm trying to hire <laugh>. Exactly. I'm not trying to hire all farts like me. That's right. I'm looking for this newer, younger generation. Yep. And one thing we've done in law enforcement, a very traditional field, luckily we're letting go of some of the negative traditions we've had in the past. Right. Well for sure.
Speaker 1 00:18:40 I mean, the further back you go, the the worst. It's, I mean, it's
Speaker 0 00:18:43 Terrible. It is. The traditions back then, we had 150 years, this is our sesqui centennial, fourth police department. And I can only imagine what it was like in 1873 when we started. But I look at how far we, we've come and I can't wait to see how far we go. Yeah. But with this video, one of the things that I thought in that, that moment of clarity, I had that epiphany when I said, we've never done it this way before. I've told people, they'll say, we gotta take these new generations and bring 'em around to our way of thinking. That's when they'll be good police officers. We gotta meet 'em in the middle. We have to, not saying they're a hundred percent right, but I can tell you, being a generation Xer, like a Gen Xer, we are not a hundred percent right. But if we meet 'em in the middle and we work together, we find out our commonalities and how we can work forward to improve one another man, that's when it changes policing forever.
Speaker 0 00:19:29 That's when we see the real kind of change. We wanna see that generations down the road. They can look back at us and say, man, that that was really a big move for policing. And I believe a hundred percent where we have been for the last few years and where we're going for the next several years will be considered its own era in policing. For sure. There have been several eras of policing. This is going to be one of them. I don't know what it'll be called. I don't know what history will say about us, but I feel my job is, is to work with the department to make sure our department sets the standard for what that era should be.
Speaker 1 00:20:02 So it'll be called the nos era. Of course
Speaker 0 00:20:04 <laugh> absolutely not. Come on man. Absolutely not. No, no, no, no. The that, that's the other thing about it. I don't ever want people to think when they see all the great stuff that's going on out there that has anything to do with me. There are so many amazing people on the department. And it's the ones that are actually out there doing the job. The ones in our communities, the ones in our schools, the, the detectives, the investigators, our specialized units, our professional staff, they're the ones getting it done. I always say the only reason for any success I've ever had in my life has been the grace and blessings of God and the people he's put around me. Yeah. And fortunately I've been surrounded by amazing people my entire life and it's no different now. The people I work with, best people you, you could ever want to work with, they're absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1 00:20:48 Well, I appreciate your humility's, but that's true. But you sell yourself short too. But I think you've done, you're two kinda great things here. For sure. My other question kind of tags onto this, and I don't mean to bog down on this too much, but what about the, there's been a couple philosophies thrown out and, and one is that if you want to get more of a pool of people who are diverse and have the, uh, an understanding of what's going on, they should loosen some of the standards and onboarding. And that was being one of 'em. And I, it's like something in my mind that I've always had a trouble getting passed also because it's the way it's always been. But essentially we're hiring nerds who have never really gotten into anything <laugh>. Right. And then teaching them how to continue to enforce the law. But we're all nerds. We're nerds. And it seems like somebody with a reasonable amount of street smarts who got into something early and recovered from that and now has something in their lives to relate to who would normally be dq, might be somebody valid to look at. Has that ever been broached as a topic?
Speaker 0 00:21:55 Oh, absolutely. When it comes to recruiting and hiring, its quality over quantity all day, every day, all day long. I would rather hire no one than the wrong one. Yeah. Because I would rather just maintain the status quo than bring on people who are gonna bring down the reputation of our department and put themselves other officers and citizens in danger because they can't do the job. You mentioned earlier the investment. The investment is huge when it comes to hiring an onboarding an officer. And there's been in law enforcement a trend when someone maybe wasn't working out. If they're really far along in the process, you're like, man, we've invested a lot of money in this guy, this girl, let's just see what happens. Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 00:22:33 It always turns out bad.
Speaker 0 00:22:34 Absolutely. You, if you're worried about money, you're gonna end up paying more. Yeah. On the back end. That's in the
Speaker 1 00:22:38 Private industry
Speaker 0 00:22:39 Too. You ripped the bandaid off right then and there. Yeah. So we've been much more intentional about that. Even created a committee to look at, uh, recruits in the academy or in field training as they're going along. And if they, it's not just one person making the decision cuz maybe that decision's skewed by something. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, we wanna make sure a group comes together of highly trained, highly qualified people who know what it takes to get the job done out there as a Fort Worth police officer mm-hmm. <affirmative> to take a hard look and determine can this person get the job done or not. And I don't care if we've actually had some in the last week of the academy, they'd already passed the T C L exam, our state licensing exam. They couldn't pass the scenario based training. Oh. They were either maybe using force when they shouldn't or not using force when they shouldn't. The people in danger. I said, let 'em go. We, we can't keep someone, it's not fair to them or anyone else. Right. We've had people in field training who have been there for months and maybe academically in the academy they could get it done. Right. But when they were out actually doing it in the community in a practical sense, it, it just wasn't connected.
Speaker 1 00:23:41 And you're forcing cops that need an assist to ask for yet another assist. Exactly. Right. So you're, it's rendering it worthless or somebody that, you know, makes a situation worse. Right. You know, by inept being inept. So, um, in terms of the community relations and things with, with the new and the old folks, I know that, uh, you've done some things to try to bring communities together. They, there are lots of meetings and lots of different things that people have. Uh, what are they, they call 'em town hall meetings mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, you know, people get to share with the community some of the things that officers do and the community's concerns and things like that. Are there anything other than a lot of those town hall type scenarios that you find have been effective either for you personally, which I know you've done some things on a personal level that go a long way or police wise or, you know, as policing in general could do to try to make amends with some of the community distrust?
Speaker 0 00:24:41 Absolutely. I will say first those town halls, those listening sessions we call it, cuz we go to listen more than talk. I'll answer questions. Uh, obviously a lot of times people just need to be heard whether we can fix the problem or not. They wanna know that they're being heard and they're, they're, their concerns are validated. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So those, those uh, type of efforts are definitely worthwhile. It's much harder and it takes much longer. But what I find for me personally works better are, are the personal connections, the relationships. It's all about relationships. And it's about re building those relationships prior to needing them. If we're in a time of crisis and there's a certain, uh, you know, community member we need to connect with. If we're calling during the crisis and saying, Hey, this is Neil, I wonder if we can talk. That's response is Neil who. Right. If I've developed that relationship and I call up and say, Hey, this is Neil, the response is, Hey, what do you need? That's the way it needs to be. And it works both ways. Mm-hmm. Cuz we gotta be here for each other. Yeah. So taking the time to just show up at an event, uh, doesn't have to be anything formal where I'm scheduled to speak. Uh, but I know there's a, a group of community members maybe coming together with something. Just show up and be there. 80, 90% of us just showing up, just
Speaker 1 00:25:58 Participate,
Speaker 0 00:25:59 Participating, being present. We gotta meet people where they are literally and physically. We've got to actually be there. And if people, the first time they've seen me, some places maybe that, that it's a new area, standoffish, maybe, maybe not quite so trusting. But I keep showing up and after a while they're like, oh, it's Neil, he's back. And it's not such a big deal. Yeah. Whether that means going to over to black coffee, over on Bond, great coffee shop, amazing spot. An area where they need a lot more economic revitalization. Love it. It's uh, it's places like that casa over on the north side, just going and hanging out. Just being there. And after a while people will start coming up to you, Hey, I got a question. Or Hey, I've got a problem. Or, Hey, I had a bad experience, I wanna tell you about it and I need to hear those kind of things.
Speaker 0 00:26:47 Mm. Uh, one of the things that's been great is going to churches. And I don't go to church in my uniform. I'm in my church. My Sunday go to meet and close mm-hmm. As they say around here in my church clothes, I've got my family with me. And we go to churches all over Fort Worth. Every demographic you can think of. And it, what's great is, doesn't matter what the culture is, it doesn't matter what the language spoken is, it doesn't matter what side of town it is, we're all there for the same reasons and we are welcomed with open arms. Right. The first time I started doing that, I didn't know how it would go. It's gone really, really well. So for me it's about taking the time and it's hard to find sometimes, but you, you gotta make time for what's important
Speaker 1 00:27:27 For you too. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:27:28 <laugh>, you've got to go out there and make those personal connections and actually get to know people and let them get to know you. So
Speaker 1 00:27:34 How often are you able to go to these different churches? Cause I know I've had some experiences there too, where sometimes there's a a unique experience for them as well when you show up. Yes. And if it's, uh, you know, if you're the only white guy and they don't know who you are yet, maybe there might be some curiosity, there might be some disdain. But how do you deal with that when you go there? Especially when you have your family with you? I'll
Speaker 0 00:27:58 Tell you one of the first ones I went to, um, it's a church over in stop six. I mean, basically in the projects. What for the projects, which, which happen to be gone now. Right. Thankfully, you know, we're revitalizing that area. It's gonna be, it's gonna be amazing project. But I even called a friend of mine. I didn't know the pastor that well yet. I'd met him a few times. I was really impressed with this guy. And I called a mutual friend. I said, do you think it's all right if I show my family today? And he said, absolutely. He said, I'll call him and let him know you're coming, but I'll, I'll, I'll just give him a shout a heads up. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, about 10 minutes later, this guy called back and he said, pastor said, everybody's welcome in the house of God, bring your family.
Speaker 0 00:28:38 Come on. So we go in there and we, we pull up in our, our car and we park. We got there kind of early. There's some other folks that are getting out and yeah, we were like the only white people there, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And people were getting outta the cars, walking to church. And they looked at us and they had this look like, oh, those poor folks are lost <laugh>. That, that's the, the look I got. And then we get out of our cars with our Bibles in hand, ready to go. And they're like, well, maybe they do know where they are. We walk in the door. And I didn't know, man, I'll be honest. I didn't, we don't have the best relationships with the, with the Stop six community. We're working on it and we are making improvements, but we got a ways to
Speaker 1 00:29:14 Go. That's one of those communities again that we need Absolutely reparations. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:29:18 So we walk in there and I probably didn't take two steps and somebody hugged me. Hmm. And they're welcoming us and they're hugging my family and they take us to a seat. And it's a very small church, so everybody sees everybody. Yeah. And we, we stood out. Uh, but everybody was thrilled to see us there. Smiling, waving, shaking our hands. And then during the, uh, opening part of the ceremony, the pastor introduces me and he introduces me. I wasn't chief yet as a, I think it was deputy chief at the time, deputy Chief Neil Nos. You could have heard a pin drop <laugh>, every head turned. Everybody's looking at us and I'm like, oh, is this about to go? It was going so well <laugh> it was going so well,
Speaker 1 00:29:58 Uh, if it is, if I'm not overt
Speaker 0 00:30:00 Enough exactly. Now allow me to stand with my family. Maybe me stand out a little more. And then he asked me to come up and speak. So I got this lady real briefly. Yes, absolutely. He's, he's a great guy. Um, they were more happy that I was there after they found that out than they were when they first met me. Of course, they don't see police officers, especially white police officers in that church, hardly ever. And when it was over, we were probably there for another half hour just talking to people, shaking hands. And I don't say that to, to brag in any way about Look what I did for the community. Of course not. No. The the, you talk about a genuine connection. Yeah. For me personally, man, it was powerful. Yeah. And here's the best part of that story. So we have this one thing we're doing with our recruits now, where we bring in people like this pastor who grew up in Stop six.
Speaker 0 00:30:46 He used to be part of the problem. He, he's actually working now to be a part of the solution in that community. And others who from, say Diamond Hill, north side, Polly Eastwood, John T. White, um, areas where we don't have the best relationships. Minority communities possibly. Exactly. They're majority minority communities and areas where we're having to work really, really hard to build trust mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we bring them in to talk to our recruits and we bring them into talk about why maybe they didn't trust the police, maybe talk bad Interac about a bad interaction they had with an officer, maybe a forward police officer. And then we discuss it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it is eyeopening for these recruits. And they can ask any question they want, anything they want. That's the first session. The next session we do it with similar, if not these same community members.
Speaker 0 00:31:30 We do breakout sessions. If they rotate through where they have more intimate conversations like this, ask the hard questions. The last one, we call it the field trip. We take them to these community members. We take 'em to stop six, we take 'em to Como, we take 'em to Northside and actually get them in the community. What we're trying to do is we want them to go into those communities and see them as residents, as citizens, as community members, not as suspects. Right. We want them to be able to, whatever barriers there may be, break them down. One of the things that's been great is there's a couple of guys, two really big African-American gentlemen, uh, imposing guys. Cause they're big, right? Yeah. And they talk about, you know, you may come up on a scene in my neighborhood and you see two guys that look like us and we're yelling at each other and we're going, and they'll kind of play out.
Speaker 0 00:32:16 We're we're moving our hands around. We're loud. We're, we're, we're in each other's faces. And you think some, there's all kinds of aggression. You think there's about to be a fight and we're just talking about the cowboys <laugh>, you said that's the way our culture interacts sometimes. And, uh, we don't need you rolling up in your car, jumping out and trying to tackle one of us because you think we're about to fight. We're not. It's just the way it is. Right. I want them to have those realizations at the academy perspectives in a controlled, safe environment. Yeah. Rather than in an, a high intensity situation, the community where it could go bad. Right. But to go back to my original story, uh, that pastor told that story about me going to his church and he talked about the next time I was gonna go was for their, I think their eight year anniversary just so happens it was the day after Hitachi and Jefferson was killed.
Speaker 1 00:33:02 Oh
Speaker 0 00:33:03 Wow. And I thought, man, I don't know about this one. I don't know. So I called him up. I said, first I don't wanna be disrespectful, second of all, am I okay showing up with my family? And he said again, he said, brother, you are always welcome in the house of the Lord. And, and you're my brother. Don't worry about it. I showed up and I'm not gonna lie, my man, I, I was a little nervous. Yeah. I was afraid. Be yelled at, cursed at things would happen. They welcomed us with open arms, hugged us the same exact way they did that first time. So he told that story in the first session where those recruits met with the community members with no one saying anything. No direction. Not even a suggestion. About a dozen of those recruits showed up at his church the next Sunday.
Speaker 1 00:33:44 No way.
Speaker 0 00:33:45 They just showed up, man. And a couple of 'em had become members. Both one's Hispanic, I think one's, uh, a white male. They love the diversity of it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they, they love the fact they're getting into the community. And quite frankly, just the congregation of that pastor are some of the most authentic, genuine people. Loving people. Right. You'd ever meet in your life. So I know that things we're doing are working because I never expected to through those recruits would just show up on their own. Yeah. And they didn't, they didn't even tell anybody. It was a pastor who told us about it. So they weren't doing it. Trying to get doing for authentic
Speaker 1 00:34:17 Extra credits reasons.
Speaker 0 00:34:18 Yeah. They were doing it for authentic reasons, man. Yeah. And that's where change happens
Speaker 1 00:34:22 For sure. I, I totally agree with that. That's, um, and that's something too that when you go into police work and you know you're gonna be working in a community that is a poor community, which is typically crime ridden also unfortunately because of, because of its, uh, socioeconomic status. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then you have cops that just run around and start associating the high crime with the community. Yes. When the whole time, the purpose of you fighting crime in that community is for the sake of the community. Absolutely. Who is by whole good people. I'd
Speaker 0 00:34:57 Love, what'd love to tell you about a, you made me think of something else. Another, uh, program that, that we started at Ford pd. It's based off a model that Lap D started back in 2000. Uh, a friend of mine named Johnny Na, he's a, a professor at TCU U and the director of, uh, graduate studies, um, actually got a promotion. I don't remember what his title is now. Great guy. He found out from a student who used to play basketball at tcu, then moved back to LA, became an a PD police officer. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> then took an online master's course. He told Johnny about what's called Operation Progress. Short version. So you have the Watts community in LA at South Central la Yep. Uh, one of the hardest areas in the country. They were dealing with all the people causing the problems every single day. And it began to be where they've just figured everybody in here is like the people we're arresting. And they started noticing these families that every once in a while would come out. And you have these families, many of them immigrant families, some of them families that just, they just can't get anywhere else. They're trying their best man. They're working their, their tails off. You can't
Speaker 1 00:36:01 Just move when you're in a poor community. You're
Speaker 0 00:36:03 Stuck. And one of the things he said about, he said, the ones they saw really trying, they weren't underemployed. They were over employed and undercompensated. Right. So they're working 80 hours a week at minimum wage. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> barely putting food on the table. Kids couldn't go outside cuz there's gang members Right. Outside, armed selling drugs, doing whatever they do. They started realizing, you know what, there are really good people here. What can we do to help? So it started as a really small grassroots effort that's grown, grown into something major. So they take these kids, uh, many of 'em are in LA Unified School District where the suicide rate, the high school dropout rate and the pregnancy rate are higher than the graduation rate. Like hardly anybody graduates. But kids routinely fail. And it's not a knock against LA Unified, I don't know much about it, but in this segment of their service area, things were atrocious. It's
Speaker 1 00:36:50 A generational issue at that point. It's, yeah. It's,
Speaker 0 00:36:52 So what they did was they partnered with, uh, local, uh, private school in the area they got with the families. They took the kids out of the public schools, put them in these private schools, paid tuition, paid for their uniforms, paid for their supplies, paid for tutoring, paid for case management, anything in everything they need. Parents have to take what's called life journey classes cuz many, many folks grow up in amazing families and they just assume everybody else gets the same opportunities. Yeah. <laugh> they assume everybody else's parents were trained to be a good parent. So that's not always the case. You have to have at least one supportive adult in the home to support that child. Cause it doesn't matter what we do in schools or anywhere else. If they're not getting it at home, it's not gonna work. Yeah. At literacy levels, strong role models. Those, those are huge predictors in child success.
Speaker 1 00:37:38 They're gonna latch onto to the easiest Exactly. Common denominator, which is usually not in the home
Speaker 0 00:37:42 Something bad. Yeah. The strongest predictor research is shown to a success for a child is strong family ties. So we wanna make sure that there's something there. And they're not looking for the kids who are the worst of the worst of the best of the best, best of the best. Probably have what they need. Worst of the worst are kind of beyond the reach of this group. What they're looking for. Are the kids in the middle get left behind the ones that nobody's paying attention to. Maybe a c student that could be an A student maybe. Right. But they're just not getting the support they need. They, they
Speaker 1 00:38:07 Don't have opportunities.
Speaker 0 00:38:08 Opportunities. They don't have hope. Yeah. So they take these kids, they start in third or fourth grade. We're talking all the way through high school, through graduation, through college, into career, whatever they do. And every kid is partnered with an L A P D officer as a mentor throughout this program. Hmm. It's not just show up one day and give away backpacks at a school, which is great as well. It's not a one and done. You're invested long term. Well, we're doing that in Fort Worth now. Awesome. Starting out our pilot program, which is a few years old now is in Como. And we have kids in, uh, river Tree Academy in Miss Cindy's Christian Academy. Yep. The ones who have aged out of those. We have one at the, the Fine Arts Academy. We've got one in the idea public schools or the charter school.
Speaker 0 00:38:49 These kids are doing amazing, amazing things and every one of them is partnered with a Fort Worth police officer as a mentor. And what you said that made me think of that is I was sold when we looked at this program in about five minutes, it was absolutely amazing. The executive director at the time said, operation progress is the highest form of community policing out there. They had a hard time getting some of the families to buy in. They were all in until they found out about the police component. Like, I don't want my kids have anything to do with lapd. Right. Once they were able to,
Speaker 1 00:39:22 And their reputation is even Oh yeah. A lot more difficult than a lot of agencies. They've
Speaker 0 00:39:26 Got an uphill battle. And then, like I mentioned before, some were immigrant communities whose citizenship status maybe wasn't what they wanted. Oh, I'm gonna get deported if I join. And I guess say, listen, we're just here to help you work all that out however you want to on your, we're just here to help you and your kids. We wanna help your family. So once they got people involved, they absolutely loved it. And they said what was happening over time as it was changing the hearts and the minds of those students, which was changing the hearts and minds of the family, which eventually can change the hearts and minds of the community about police officers
Speaker 1 00:39:56 And changing the police officers.
Speaker 0 00:39:58 Bam. That's when I heard that I was sold. But then the next thing they said was just like we talked about, if an officer goes in the same neighborhood every day for work and only deal with the worst of the worst in that community, they may become jaded and start to think everybody in that community is the same way when 99% are not Right. They're good people like anybody else who want the same things everybody else wants. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's changing the hearts and minds of the officers about the communities they served. That's, that's huge, man. Does,
Speaker 1 00:40:22 Is that an organization that somebody can contribute to? Absolutely. Outside of law enforcement as well?
Speaker 0 00:40:27 Yes. It's a 5 0 1 C three. Oh. We have some of the, uh, the, the greatest philanthropic organizations that contribute, like the Amy G. Carter Foundation, Sid Richardson. That's great. Uh, miles Foundation, uh, rainwater, uh, Hillwood. We have so many people putting in. But the thing is what we're finding to really sustain it, we also need just small donations. Right. People who want to contribute. You don't have to give us a hundred thousand dollars. Right. <laugh>. Yeah. If you can give us a hundred dollars, $10, every single bit helps.
Speaker 1 00:40:53 Yeah. That sounds like a jam right up my alley. You know, it's, yeah. That's quite up my alley. So that's that's fantastic. I appreciate you sharing that too. You bet. So what, what makes a, uh, what is the making of a chief nos? I mean, you've come a long way since I first met you. And what are maybe some of, um, let me just start with what is maybe one of the most impactful experiences or lessons you learned as a kid? And did it have anything to do with you making the decision to become a police officer at some point?
Speaker 0 00:41:26 I'll be honest. Were you, I can't think of any one like major incident that led me here. It's been a series of many, many small incidents and interactions. As I said before, it's all the grace and blessings of God and the people he is put around me. And since I was born, I've been surrounded by amazing people. I I was given some amazing opportunities. We, we never had much growing up, don't get me wrong. But I, I saw an interview with, uh, Lou Holtz mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, the Notre Dame storied head coach. Yeah. And asked him about his upbringing and he said, I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I thought, I didn't know he came from wealth. He said, we lived in a one room shack with no electricity, no running water. There were 15 of us in the house and a spoon.
Speaker 0 00:42:07 But I, yes, but I was never unwanted. I was never unloved. I was always supported. Mm-hmm. I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I can, we, we had running water and electricity, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't that we had a lot of things, uh, monetarily when it came to just things. Mm-hmm. But I was always loved. I was always wanted, always supported. Dad's been critical. My dad was a, uh, a firefighter later on in life. He surrendered into the, into the ministry, became a pastor. I've never known my dad to have less than two jobs. There's usually three or more always working. Maybe the hardest working man I've ever met in my life. My, uh, mother was a stay-at-home mom with me and I've, uh, an older sister and a younger sister until we all went up to school. Then she's like, I, I wanna contribute financially too.
Speaker 0 00:42:51 So she wanted to be able to put us on the bus and be home when we got off the bus. So there's not a lot of jobs that do that other than drop. Well, she found out about cleaning houses. Oh. I could go clean a couple of houses in between school, drop off and pick up, uh, pick up and I can help out a little bit. Yeah. And, and I never thought about it, but my mom was scrubbing other people's toilets to try to provide a better life for us. Yeah. So for my parents, it's always been about service, selflessness, humility, uh, faith, family and friends. Right. That's been one of the biggest, uh, motivating factors for me. And that extends to my grandparents. It's uh, that's, it's been a great life. Yeah. And then, then in, in my career, there's been different things throughout the years. A couple of things, and you'll understand this sometimes. I've just had really good leaders. You don't need rank to be a leader. And having rank does not make you a leader. You
Speaker 1 00:43:46 Got, that's a, that's a real luck of the draw too. It is. That comes outside,
Speaker 0 00:43:50 But both ends of that spectrum work. Yeah, for sure. Maybe you have somebody, cuz you have some people who are great leaders who aren't even a leadership position. They have no rank. Right. They're informal leaders. They're the kind of people when in role call, when they talk, everybody stops and listens. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then sometimes you'll have a formal leader, someone of a certain rank and as soon as they start talking, everyone tunes out. Right. But I've had people in leadership roles who were actually leaders that inspired me. But unfortunately I had some that were in leadership roles who were not leaders. And I thought, we have to have better. And I don't wanna be that person. Right. If I ever get the opportunity, I'm gonna try to do better. And trust me, I fail daily. But I, I I really try to improve daily as well.
Speaker 0 00:44:30 Seeing those leaders, seeing where there's so much work to do. Knowing that I don't have all the answers, but I am, I'm willing to collaborate and work with people. The most successful people in the world aren't the smartest people at everything they need to do. Of course. They surround themselves with the people who are, they give them the tools, the resources and the support they need. And they get out of their way. They let them do the jobs. Here's, here's the rails, we gotta stay in here. This is what the end goal needs to be. Figure out how we get there. Yeah. I, I read a book recently called Who Not How. And it said, in any organization, when a person gets up to a certain level, you have to stop asking how whenever a project comes up, there's something that has to be done.
Speaker 0 00:45:09 I've always been the get down to the weeds and get a done guy. How am I gonna do this? How do I do it? I can't, there are some things that I need to be the one doing. So I take those and I run with those. Everything else I have to not ask how I ask who Yeah. Who is the best person to take this? I give them that direction. I give them that support. I give them what in the military they call the, uh, commander's intent. This is what I intend to achieve. I'll leave it to you to find out how we get there. And
Speaker 1 00:45:35 That's empowerment. That's not, I'm telling
Speaker 0 00:45:37 You man,
Speaker 1 00:45:37 That's not pawning it off. No. That's empowerment. First
Speaker 0 00:45:39 Year and a half I was chief. I was completely overwhelmed. Cause I was trying to do everything. Not because I didn't trust my team, not because I I'm a control freak. I thought that was my job and I thought I was dumping on them. Right. Right. But it, it is empowering. It's, it's succession planning. When people know that you trust them to get a job done that makes them feel good. It gives them confidence in themselves. For sure. And you know what, initially it may take longer cause there may be a lot of questions. I welcome questions. I don't want people to guess. If you don't know, come ask me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But then when it, they get those questions answered, once I give them all the resources they need up to the point that I can, I expect 'em to go out there and perform like champs. And they do. And some pe sometimes it's hard because in your mind, you, you've reverted back already to that Howell mentality and you figured out how you think it should be done. And their route is nothing like what you said.
Speaker 1 00:46:32 That's the toughest time.
Speaker 0 00:46:33 It is. But if it's legal, moral, ethical and it gets the job done, you gotta let 'em do it. And what I found so many times is their way was better anyway. And if I had tried to get in the middle of it, I would've, I would've screwed the whole thing up. Yeah. Letting them do what they need to do, be innovative, be problem solvers, they do it better than I would've to begin with.
Speaker 1 00:46:50 Fantastic. That's that's fascinating. And, and in business I run into the same thing. You know, could part of the problem be that I just want it done a certain way and absolutely problem. Part of the problem answer
Speaker 0 00:47:01 That is always Yes, problem. Yes
Speaker 1 00:47:03 It is. I'm trying to get over myself, but I also would like same here to do something else. You know, <laugh>, can we meet in the middle somewhere. Yeah. I totally get it. It's hard to learn. And so you're, you're dad with a firefighter and you still managed to become a cop after seeing Yes. What a perfectly cushy gig that was. So there is, there is a little bit of, uh, stubborn in you. So, and a little bit you were, you were once a musician. I heard. I I
Speaker 0 00:47:31 I think that's way too generous <laugh>. Way too
Speaker 1 00:47:33 Generous. But as a, as a quote unquote kid, we're talking in your twenties though, right? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:47:38 So late teens, early twenties. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:40 Yeah. And you were out playing and everything.
Speaker 0 00:47:42 I don't know if I call it playing. I had an in instru instrument in my hand and I was doing something with it, but I was not talented. I was not that guy. But I had just, some friends got together, we kind of played instruments. Uh, they had started a band. They needed a bass player. I'd never played a bass, but hey, gimme one. We'll figure it out. We'll make happen. Did you
Speaker 1 00:48:01 Happen play a little guitar, but you played
Speaker 0 00:48:02 I played guitar prior to that. Uh, again, not, I'm not an expert on the guitar. I'm not, I'm not you. I'm no Tegan Broadwater <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:48:09 I'm no expert either, man.
Speaker 0 00:48:11 But I, uh, it was fun, man. It was fun, uh, just getting up there on stage and, and playing. Uh, the one thing, uh, my, my, my mother, God blessed her with an amazing singing voice.
Speaker 1 00:48:21 Oh, really?
Speaker 0 00:48:22 I, my sisters. Oh my gosh. Incredible. I cannot sing to save my life. Really? It is. No, it is. It is terrible. But I, I can play just enough to make a fool of myself pretty much on, on some instruments. And that was a really cool time, man. Just getting to go out with some guys, get on stage and perform music that we had, we had written. Yeah. As terrible as it was, man, it was ours. Because
Speaker 1 00:48:44 That era was a lot of original music. You were playing out in Deep Ellum and all that stuff. So was, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:48:49 This was a hub. Texas was a hub for, for mm-hmm. <affirmative> for original music back, you know what, early mid nineties. Yeah. Great time to do it. Um, there were some other great bands that we played with, just, just played some local shows, you know, in Fort Worth, Dallas, Wichita Falls. But nothing, we we're never a traveling, touring band. Nothing like that. No.
Speaker 1 00:49:08 Oh, that's fine. But, you know, it, it is. I think there is something significant about being able to be creative and create your own tunes too. Cause most bands and so many other states and cities are forced to play three sets of covers and then all covers throw the one of their originals in towards the end of the night when people don't care as much and aren't listening and whatever. And that's all they get. Well,
Speaker 0 00:49:30 It's hard to say no because at least then it seemed, if you played covers really well, well, they let you throw in a couple, but you got paid a lot more. Oh, for sure. Cause people wanted to hear music. They knew. Yeah. If you're coming in with completely original music that nobody's heard you, you know, you don't, you don't. Many, many people show up. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:49:45 Yeah. But that was, then you have to be a marketer, right? Yes. And you have to have a leader in your group and all that kind of stuff. Did you find anything from that era applied to your skillset that you took into police work? Or was it just a complete diversion?
Speaker 0 00:49:59 There's a lot of difference. <laugh>. Uh, what I will say though, I think in, in almost any career field, people skills, it's all about people skills. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're trying to set up a gig. You're trying to work with other creative type A individuals to write a song. You're trying to schedule practices. You're trying to schedule when you might get to play. You're trying to get people to come watch you when you're an absolute nobody <laugh>. Yeah. You gotta have really strong people skills. You gotta know how to talk to folks need to be convincing authentically. So, so I'm not saying you tell them whatever they want to hear to get them to do what you want. It's gotta be gen, genuine, uh, honest and authentic. I think every, pretty much every job I've had has kind of helped me hone those. And I've got a lot of honing left to do. But I'd say that's probably the, the major takeaway, just working with people, especially in stressful situations.
Speaker 1 00:50:45 Yeah. And our generation, too, went through a, a, a transformation of time where we didn't have email even at that time. So our mailing lists. Our actual mailing lists. Yes. You're, youre like writing up a flyer. The bass player's drawing a cool picture. Yes. You're like signing something and you copy it off and lick stamps and send it or create a postcard and you're literally mailing out things every month. Isn't that
Speaker 0 00:51:11 Crazy? However many
Speaker 1 00:51:12 People,
Speaker 0 00:51:12 It seems so ridiculous now. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:51:14 But it is, it seemed more easier to be authentic cuz when they were signing up for your mailing list, literally meeting you, in order to even get on that list, you have to address a person first. It was
Speaker 0 00:51:25 Much more personal.
Speaker 1 00:51:25 Yeah. So that's, that's fascinating that you do that. And then, and now you've got, uh, potentially you've got a musician in the family or you gonna try to convert him.
Speaker 0 00:51:35 So I'm very, uh, happily married. I've got four. We've got four kids. And our youngest music is his thing. He's tried a few different sports. He tried football, uh, tried baseball, tried soccer, golf, and he enjoyed it, but he wasn't passionate about it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then he picked up a guitar and we have a, a piano in the house. My wife, uh, plays piano as well. All right. And he just started to blink around on the piano. Next thing we know, he is playing songs. He's playing the guitar and he just, he excelled. Um, he, he, he's playing the trumpet now. Everything that's, that has to do with music. He wants, he wants to go to Guitar Center every day and every day we're there <laugh> he sees something, he goes, dad, I think I want a ukulele <laugh>, uh, dad, I think I need this.
Speaker 0 00:52:21 There's, I don't remember what it's called. It's, it's like a, a keyboard that you blow into to play. Yeah, sure. He's got one of those. He has some kind of, uh, percussion instrument. He wants a drum kit now. Uh, he's got another friend who is just as sold on music and, and they become really close for this love of music that they share. That's awesome. And it's been really cool for me to be able to actually sit down with my son and, and work on some songs together. I'll come home. He goes, Hey dad, look what I learned today. You know, play a song for me. So I'll pick up a guitar and maybe we play it together. It's, it's, that's awesome. It it is. It's completely awesome.
Speaker 1 00:52:53 That's really a cool way to commune with your kids too. Oh yeah. And it's, and it, and there's no pressure. And especially multi instrumentalists are a lot more common these days than they, they were back in the day too.
Speaker 0 00:53:06 I think it's wonderful too, cuz it's kinda like with sports, they used to tell kids, okay, fifth, uh, five years old, you gotta specialize. Pick a sport. Yeah. You can't, well, they're saying now, that's the dumbest thing you could do. Let them play anything and every sport they want. Because there are things you learn in one sport that will cross over and translate into the whatever your main sport may be. I believe it's same with music. If you just love music, play whatever instruments you want to play. If there's one that you are passionate about and that would only then great, go for it. Otherwise, try everything that's out there. And it is great with my son because one thing I've tried to be very conscious about is not try to live vicariously through him. <laugh> or try to impose whatever. Maybe, oh, I wish I'd done this. Yep. I let him try things. I I don't let him quit. He has to finish whatever he starts. Sure. But if the next season comes along and he doesn't wanna do it, I don't make him do it. Right. This has been one where I don't say a word about it. He wants to do it. So when you share a, a passion like that with your one of your kids, it's pretty special.
Speaker 1 00:54:01 That's fascinating. Yeah. I love it. I love that he's into that stuff too. Me too. You were saying too, he's playing nineties music.
Speaker 0 00:54:08 Oh, yeah. Too. Yeah. There have been times I'd come in the house from work and I hear a song. I was like, man, who's listening to old music? And I go in there and he's actually playing it. Like, where, where did you learn that man? And you know, for us back in the day, you'd go somewhere and buy Guitar magazine or something or try to get some tabs or some, some music somewhere.
Speaker 1 00:54:25 Right. It'd take forever to get ahold of stuff. Exactly. One at a time.
Speaker 0 00:54:28 Oh yeah. And you buy one magazine and that's all you're gonna have for a month until the next one comes out. Yeah. Any song you wanna learn is online. Pull it up like that. No problem. Yeah. So that, that is convenient. It's nice to see that we, we we didn't have that.
Speaker 1 00:54:39 No, I wish we had had that. I'd play a lot better even now. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:54:42 I know. I would <laugh>, I hope,
Speaker 1 00:54:45 I think for the most part what I'd like to touch on is the fact that I know how busy you are. You know, how busy you are. No one else really has a true appreciation about the, the job that you have and the intense amount of time. You can only do it for so long. Although some people really learn how to manage their time. I'd, I'd love to know some of the things you do to manage your time in the position you're in and if you have any aspirations beyond police work or after police work, so to say. Uh, maybe any thoughts about what you might do, cuz you seems like have the component, the built-in components for being an entrepreneur, which people tend to tend to, to throw that term around loosely. Yeah. Everyone thinks they are, but I think with, uh, the amount of work, work ethic and the people skills and the, the time management and determination to make it from A to B and there isn't an option. Those are all things that you possess. I think it, I think it lends itself to a great ent, entrepreneurship. Um, I don't know if you've ever thought of that.
Speaker 0 00:55:50 So Yeah. Appreciate that. Um, as far as retirement, anything's open, all I know how to do really is be a cop. That's what I've done for the last 23 years.
Speaker 1 00:55:58 That's what you think.
Speaker 0 00:56:00 Well, and, but everybody tells me there's a lot of things like you just said, that will translate really well into other areas. As far as the first part of your question, I, I remember when I was first selected, man, I was so excited that I got selected as chief. There were some really strong candidates. Yeah. I didn't know if I had a chance. And I talked to my predecessor, uh, ed Kraus, who was a phenomenal chief mm-hmm. <affirmative> just before me. Another guy who came up all the, the way through the ranks to become chief. I said, ed, you were the executive assistant chief, so the number two in command, you had been acting chief while the chief was out. You've done the job. I said, I'm, I'm actually going. I went from deputy chief over the assistant chief rank to chief. So I missed out on the experience I would've had at that rank.
Speaker 0 00:56:44 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I said, how much of a shift was it for you? It couldn't have been that much because you were right there. He said it was night and day. He said, there is no comparison. And I, I didn't believe I said, no, come on, you're just trying to prepare me. He said, no. He said, until you sit in that chair, you have absolutely no idea what it's like. The pressure is constant, it's crushing and it never stops. Yeah. I thought, okay, whatever. He's just trying to scare me. Manny was right. And you, I I had a, an idea of what I thought it might be like I was wrong. Uh, I knew some of the requirements, some of the stresses. But until you really experience them and you've got that weight on your shoulder, shoulders 24 7, 365, you don't really appreciate how difficult a job can be. And please, this isn't a woe is me. Feel sorry for me. You'll
Speaker 1 00:57:31 Talk. Oh no, I I would,
Speaker 0 00:57:32 I am blessed to be here.
Speaker 1 00:57:33 Make you say this cuz we know that that's it. And you're constantly in a position where you know that the decision you make, knowing it's as right as you can make it, is going to be faced with dissension every single
Speaker 0 00:57:47 Time. Every time every decision I make is gonna make someone unhappy. Yep. As much as I'm trying to, you know, make everybody happy, my my primary goal is do to do what's right because it's Right. Right. Make the right decision for the right reasons and then just put up with the consequences. And I gotta know that no matter what may go right in the department, man, it's, it's not me. It's the people that are out there doing the job. I gotta know, whatever goes wrong in the department, it doesn't matter whose fault it may be. It's my responsibility. Yep. Everything that happens. Yep. And I, I'll be honest, it is trying. At times when I got hired in, uh, Fe on February 2nd, 2021, there had been several articles out about major city chiefs, larger cities, you know, like Fort Worth. The average tenure of a major city chief was three to five years.
Speaker 0 00:58:35 It was only a matter of months after I got hired. There was a new article came out in a national publication. They said the major, I'm sorry, the, the average tenure for major city chief now one to three years. Oh wow. I just saw an article yesterday. The, uh, commissioner in for N Y P D 18 months. She's done, she's out. Um, we see it all over the country where chiefs are doing less and less time. And a lot of it is because of the, the increased pressures going through the de defund, the police movement dealing with covid and all the restrictions that were going on. There's so much of a, a, a cry for change and you know what, some things need to change. Yeah. But very little acknowledgement of the things that have changed. Of course, it's frustrating for achieve, especially when you see the good work and I can't see all of it.
Speaker 0 00:59:22 I mean, total, I got like 2300 employees. Unfortunately, I can't see what every single one of them does, but I know they're doing great work. I hear about it all the time. I see body camera footage of it. But it's just that one negative thing that happens of course that wipe out all of those as if they never even happens. And it, it's very frustrating. So he was right. It's, it's something you really do not understand until you actually do the job. The the time commitment I knew was going to be immense. I didn't understand what it was really gonna be like until I did it. Yeah. There's a saying called the tyranny of the urgent and everything seems urgent. Right. People come to you and, and it may not be the biggest thing going on in the world, but it's the biggest thing going on in their world.
Speaker 0 01:00:06 Yep. And they want to talk to the chief, they want it fixed right now. It's gotta get done. And that's where I've had to learn to rely, like on my chief of staff, my executive assistant chief, my deputy chiefs, my commanders, everybody. I have to delegate some of these things, these things out. I said, would you call this gentleman, there's an issue, but I've got 15 other calls over here. I'm making this one's urgent needs to get done. But when it comes to the Tyra, the tyranny of the urgent, some things are urgent but not important. Some things are important and urgent and there's a, a flow in there from
Speaker 1 01:00:37 Hierarchy of importance. Exactly.
Speaker 0 01:00:38 Exactly. So what I've had to do is make sure the first things I deal with are the things that are urgent and important and really need to be done right now. Cuz so to everybody, something is the most important thing going on then. But I, I can't just deal with everything at once. You're
Speaker 1 01:00:54 One person. So that was exactly, yeah, that was one of my other questions. Cause I know even from the community mm-hmm. <affirmative>, a lot of those people will come forward Absolutely. And feel like, uh, all I'm talking to is a lieutenant and this is ridiculous. Right. This is so important. The chief needs to know about it's a mistake. Not that you don't know. And it's not that you're not paying it at proper attention. You're one person and, and nobody elses. Yeah. Something else drops at the sacrifice of your time to pay attention to this and Yeah. Other things fall down. So what
Speaker 0 01:01:23 A mistake I made early on was I was trying to fulfill all of those. Yeah. But you're right. As I picked up one over here, this one dropped and I forgot about it because I had so many things on my plate. So now we have a citizen who thinks I don't care at all. The Fort Worth Police Department doesn't care at all. I'm, I'm mad and I will never trust the police again. Yeah. I found if somebody reaches out, especially someone to make some of a certain rank, they appreciate it. I found it's more important for me to make sure someone in the department who has a compassionate ear, who will listen to and try to solve these problems, calling out, even if it's not me, is more important than them hearing directly from me. And usually if I can get it down somewhere closer to the level where that problem is happening, they're gonna give 'em better information anyway. Yeah. And a more immediate response,
Speaker 1 01:02:06 Be able to fix it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:02:08 Absolutely. So I've had to work on prioritization. Uh, that book who not how that I mentioned earlier completely changed my perspective on what delegation really is. It's not not delegation dump, it's not shirking responsibility. It's getting things done and it's empowering others to be the best they can be. Yeah. To one day step into the role I'm in and do it much better than I ever even imagined. Then I found out, and really this is one that I, I, I knew in a, in a academic sense maybe, but I I didn't put it into practice. If I don't control my calendar, my can, my calendar will control me no question about it. And I have to be careful about what I put where and when. Uh, sometimes I've gotta cancel things and move them to go over here. Uh, my assistant Nicole does a great job with putting all that together.
Speaker 0 01:02:54 I, I couldn't handle my calendar. I mean, that's a full-time job. Oh yeah. In of itself is just getting that calendar straight, but prioritizing, dealing with what's in front of me right now that really needs to be run, done right now. And then just knocking 'em off the list as I go helps. I used, I used to do a, a to-do list and maybe my priorities are up here and then these are things I'd like to get to. I don't even bother anymore because I go in with a plan for the day and then the day reveals its plan to me. <laugh>, which is nothing like I thought it was supposed to be. Of course. Oh, it just takes over. But you gotta be flexible. You gotta be agile, gotta shift, uh, deal with whatever's in front of you. Adapt and overcome. You adapt or die.
Speaker 0 01:03:31 Right. So I, I have to do that every single day. I find that I have to make sure I am intentional about planning time for my family. Uh, I talked with the, uh, the chief over in Dallas, Eddie Garcia. Great guy. I've been doing this chief thing for a lot longer. I I talked to him about it one time. Said you gotta schedule breaks. What One other thing I found, I was going from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, taking notes in each meeting. By the time I gotta the last meeting, I forgot everything that happened in the first one. Right. Said take time, take 15 minutes between meetings, put your notes down somewhere, assign what you need to so when you go on to the next meeting that's handled, he said schedule a a break at some point in your day. If you go all day long, 8, 10, 12, 16 hours and you never take a break, you can do that short term. But he said, if you're wanting to be in this for the long game, you gotta pace yourself.
Speaker 1 01:04:16 Yeah. He'll drop balls and you'll go nuts.
Speaker 0 01:04:18 Oh my goodness. Your health, your health is gonna suffer. Yeah. You, you gotta take care of yourself if you want to take care of others. It's like when you get, use this analogy a lot. When you get on an airplane and you flight attendant goes through the pre-flight checklist. One of the things they say in the event of an emergency air, you know, oxygen mask may fall from the roof of the cabin. And what do they tell you to do first?
Speaker 1 01:04:39 Put it on yourself. First
Speaker 0 01:04:40 Puts on fa cuz if you can't breathe, you can't help anybody else breathe if you're not good. Both, you can't make sure nobody else is good. Yes. Then you both suffer. Yeah. So I, I tried and, and, and I, I don't like to focus on myself. I like to focus on everything else. But I found if I'm not intentional about making sure I, I get some decent sleep, I stay active, you know, exercise, try to eat right and try to have that time with my family. That helps. If I didn't do that, I prob I I may have been one of those one to three year guys that were right in the middle of two. I said, I'm out. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:05:10 Or just be a poor leader in general. Exactly. But yeah, your longevity is dependent on upon that. Are you actually making your, when you say you prioritize the urgent and important and all those things, are you making those delineations or do you have somebody that helps you also to do that?
Speaker 0 01:05:26 I, I do some of myself, but I have, uh, people that help me with it. Like my executive assistant chief, Rob Baldridge, um, kinda my, my right hand man. A lot of times I'll sit down and say, Hey look, here's what I've got. Here's what I'm looking at. What are your thoughts? And what I don't do, I learn some people in leadership roles do this. They say, here's what I'm thinking. Tell their plan. They go, what do you think? Well really what you've done, whether you realize it or not, you kind of implied this is the route we're going. I want you to agree with me. So before I ever say anything about what I think needs to be done with all of these issues that need to be dealt with, I'll try to be very intentional about saying, what do you think? And getting their thoughts first.
Speaker 1 01:06:00 Keeping their mouth shut.
Speaker 0 01:06:01 Exactly. Stop and listen first. See what they've got to say. And again, I usually find that they've got better ideas than I do anyway. And that's what we go with.
Speaker 1 01:06:09 That's awesome. Well, I'm, I'm appreciative and I know you said all that because you want me to feel guilty that you're taking all this time here. <laugh>, I feel super guilty, but I also am honored, brother. I really, really appreciate. Oh, you taking time to stop down and, and I hope it, it, uh, enlightens people and just in general, I don't think there's enough appreciation for the position that you're in. Not just the pressure and the things that, that, you know, onus of responsibility that you have to take. Um, but also just understanding that you're so human and compassionate and such a good dude underneath all of that. Well, thank you. I think it's really important for people to understand that we are all human and we're all trying to somehow make this work and everybody's coming from somewhere else. And I think you've done magnificent things. So I for one, really appreciate you man. Well,
Speaker 0 01:07:01 You're very kind man. I appreciate it. If anybody wants to show appreciation to me in any way, do it by showing appreciation of the officers out there. Do it by showing appreciation to our professional civilian staff, our volunteers, the ones that are actually out there doing the job that needs to be done. That will be more, I'll have more gratitude for that than anything they could say or do for me. Yeah. Show them how much you appreciate it. And man, I appreciate you, brother. I appreciate the fact that you're willing to try new things. You're willing to tackle tough issues. You're just such a eclectic guy, man. You got your hand a little bit of everything and you excel at all of it. I'm proud of you man. I, I consider you a brother for many reasons. This was an honor to sit down and do this with you today. I'm proud you're my friend.
Speaker 1 01:07:40 Thank you man. That means a lot too. Thanks brother.
Speaker 2 01:07:45 What it, what you going do what you do. Successor sandbox for second grade rules. Confident to make you do you what they want. They sweet. The truth of soul truth.
