Beyond a Badge: Untold & Harrowing Stories of Danny Coulson

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This crazy guy attacked a school bus and took one of the little boys off the bus and they put him in a bunker underground. And HRT deployed and started negotiation and it became pretty clear he'd not given up. So they did an explosive breach on. They had a hatch. He had a hatch on the interest of the bucket, they blew it off. But he put a bunch of bicycle cable locks across the opening. So when the hats went, they didn't go. So now he's shooting at them, he's firing up. And they had a, they were, I think they threw like 25 flashbangs on them, destroying them. And he's still shooting. And so they took wire cutters and cut them. And an agent dove into the bunker and grabbed a little boy and two other guys drove in and killed him. [00:00:57] Speaker B: One for the black man gone in the game, two for the ball. Boys are young to explain. My next guest is a dear friend of mine, but he's also fairly accomplished. I mean, he was the deputy director of the FBI, responsible for rescuing over 300 hostages from terrorists around the world, led the Oklahoma City bombing investigation, Atlanta prison riots, et cetera. Just a few things. And then when he left, he's done quite extraordinarily since. Not only that, he shares a story with us today that he says he's never shared with anyone else. And I'm honored to be the facilitator for such story because it is really impactful and it helps us to understand the context of this extraordinary man's life. So without further ado, please help me in welcoming my dear friend, Mister Danny Colson, to the tcast. [00:01:46] Speaker A: You know, I want to teach you to become a professional musician. [00:01:50] Speaker B: What? [00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:52] Speaker B: All right, man. [00:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I played the trumpet. [00:01:57] Speaker B: You played the trumpet? [00:01:58] Speaker A: I started when I was eight years old, played all the way through college and never touched it since. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Is that why that, that makes sense? Because when they say he's a blowhard, they're being complimentary. [00:02:09] Speaker A: No, they're not. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:11] Speaker A: No, they're not. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Well, yeah, so that's, that's exactly what brought me up here, because I was in high school in Houston, and then I came up here to go to North Texas. I followed one of my buddies who's now the Leonard Skynyrd guitar player. We were best bandmates coming up through high school. [00:02:25] Speaker A: And then I still have my trumpet, which is the classic trumpet, that's called an english besson trumpet. [00:02:33] Speaker B: It's probably worth something, huh? [00:02:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it's worth a lot of money. My dad found it in an old music store, which all falls. And he bought it for me, and I played it from the time I was eight. No, nine, I guess, till I graduate college, and I've never touched it. And you. [00:02:50] Speaker B: So what happened at TCU? Did you just. You went to TCU to play, but. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Then decided I wasn't very good? [00:02:57] Speaker B: You thought you weren't very good, or they thought you weren't good? [00:02:59] Speaker A: No, I thought I wasn't very good. I mean, because I was around people that were really good. So you kind of self compare. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:05] Speaker A: And. [00:03:06] Speaker B: Oh, but, yeah. Well, I was. It's actually interesting to hear this, because that sounds like a modern problem. You know, this is like something where people tend to compare themselves outside of their own environment more these days, just because you see so much more. [00:03:23] Speaker A: No doubt about it. But I wouldn't. I mean, truly, I was not very good. I'm trying to turn this damn thing off. [00:03:29] Speaker B: So you went to TCU thinking you were going to. Did you do any auditions for trumpet. [00:03:35] Speaker A: Or music or anything? Oh, yeah, yeah. I was in a lot of man's. I was. There was a symphony orchestra here for youth, and I made that. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Oh, come on. [00:03:46] Speaker A: But, you know, there's a saying among the blind, the one eyed his king. I was just around a bunch of really bad people, and I was still bad. [00:03:55] Speaker B: What does that say about the TCU music program? I'm sure it's come a long way, though. I know some really great musicians that come out of TCU these days. Different places. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Yeah, they were good. Then I just wondered, you know, I don't think I was interested anymore. I think I was. I didn't know that I wanted that to be my life. [00:04:11] Speaker B: Well, that I understand, because, you know, having been a professional musician before, too. I know. It's just a completely different thing. You're buying into kind of a different. No. [00:04:23] Speaker A: Cultural everything. Financial, sleep pattern. Everything. Yeah. So your life's different. [00:04:27] Speaker B: Well, being there then and then saying, okay, you didn't feel like that was going to be your path. What made you switch into. Did you. So your undergrad was what, political science. Political science. And what made you do that, was that just out of default? Sort of. [00:04:45] Speaker A: I thought, I probably want to go to law school. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:48] Speaker A: And so political science is a good way to prepare yourself for law school. [00:04:52] Speaker B: And wanting to go to law school, meaning you wanted to be an attorney. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Yes, I did. [00:04:55] Speaker B: At that point, what were you thinking? I'd practice law. What kind of law? Come on, man. [00:05:03] Speaker A: I really didn't know. I mean, you know, when you're that age. [00:05:06] Speaker B: Well, I know, but that's what I mean. You have an idea, though, you've got to trace. You had no idea. As broad as that is, your. [00:05:11] Speaker A: I thought maybe criminal law. Then I found out that I probably didn't want to do that. [00:05:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:16] Speaker A: And then I knew I wanted to go to law school, though. And I went to. I got accepted to SMU, which is a pretty good school, which shows it wasn't that good then. Oh, they would have dug me. So I went over there and I ended up working for a professor. I helped him write a book on civil procedure. And it was interesting guy, briefly. I'll talk to you about him. His name was Jan Scharman and he was a Nuremberg prosecutor. He prosecuted Albert Speer. [00:05:51] Speaker B: Really? [00:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah, he was one of my professors. I was. I was terrified of him. We all were terrified of him. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Well, that's old school professor, too. [00:05:59] Speaker A: And he screamed at you and he would, oh, my God, you know, if you ever, you would just sit in class and pray. He wouldn't call on you because he would just rip your private parts off. [00:06:11] Speaker B: He makes you anxious enough to prepare. Oh, yeah. [00:06:15] Speaker A: I was always ready for class. And then he hired me to be, help him write a book. So we did that. And then I was, there's a antique gun store right across the Mississippi law school called Jackson arms. He's still there. And it was a primary, probably the biggest antique gun store in the country. And between semesters my senior year, I went over there just to look around, just to kind of unwind. Law school tests are terrible, especially if you're not a good student. [00:06:47] Speaker B: So, hey, what a better place to unwind than a gun shop, right? [00:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Well, for me, maybe. Not for you, for me. So I'm in there. And there were some FBI agents in there investigating a stolen gun case taken interstate. So the agent came over and started talking to me, said, what do you do? I said, I'm in law school. He said, what are you going to do after law school? I said, I'm going to go to the Navy. Because everybody had to do something then. And he said, I don't think so. You're going to go to the FBI? I said, really? He said, yeah, we'd like to have you. And so I went through the process. And that's, that's terrible. Process. It's arduous. And they interview everybody you've ever known or talked to. And, yeah, matter of fact, I got a letter from Hoover, who was director, and said, if you expect to be an FBI agent, you got to quit getting traffic tickets because I had a number of them, and so anyway, they took me. I was shocked. I didn't think they'd take me. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Well, everybody has their ghosts. Yours just weren't as bad as others. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Well, I had a lot of ghosts. [00:07:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:48] Speaker A: Two of my uncles were in prison in upstate New York at the time, and. But, you know, they talked to me. Have you ever talked to them? I said, I don't know if I am or not. I'm not sure. Anyway, they took me, so. And the race is on. [00:08:06] Speaker B: May incriminate myself if you talk about. Did your uncles spend a lifetime and behind bars? [00:08:12] Speaker A: No, I don't know. No, they were in there for. We call them direct then car cases. They were running stolen car rings. [00:08:19] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah, they were. At least they're in business. They had a business, yeah, yeah, of course. [00:08:25] Speaker B: They're entrepreneurs. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Exactly. It's like women that become prostitutes. At least they got a professor. [00:08:31] Speaker B: So. And they talked you into it, and you got in at first shot, which is also saying something. Again, you kind of undersell your musical ability, but also, it takes a lot of people, oftentimes several up, several chances. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Yeah, they took me, and, yeah, I was excited. It was excited. You know, a young man, you're getting ready to go to the FBI academy. You know, you have no idea what you're walking into. It was pretty horrible. So I went down to Quantico and started the adventure. [00:09:02] Speaker B: So were there any significant occurrences in your childhood or adolescence that kind of tipped you in that direction? Because not everybody would be able to be coaxed so easily into something. It's an exciting profession, but not everyone would be interested. [00:09:18] Speaker A: No. And especially now. I mean, this is. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's a different part of the conversation, for sure. [00:09:23] Speaker A: Yes. Takes a lot. Yeah. I've never said this publicly, but I had polio as a kid. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Really? [00:09:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I couldn't walk. And, um, I'd had, uh, I'd had some of the vaccines. There were two at the time. There was a sawk, and I can't remember the other one. Anyway, I had the sawk, which is a series of shots, and I had one of them, and our doctor said that that's why it wasn't as severe as it could have been. It could have been, like, catastrophic because. [00:09:52] Speaker B: He had one of the series but then contracted it after that or because of that. [00:09:56] Speaker A: No, I. Well, who knows? I came down with it after that. The other one's called Sabin. That was. The one was on a sugar cube. And you just gave it to you. You took it. So I had to go through rehab, very intensive rehab. [00:10:13] Speaker B: How old were you? [00:10:14] Speaker A: 14. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Oh, wow. That's an impactful time to get that, too. Yeah. [00:10:19] Speaker A: And stow. I had a really good physical therapist who was a young woman who was. I mean, I hated her because she was so mean. She was in the medical arts building downtown Fort Worth, and I would go downstairs. She made me walk up to her office, which is four flights up. I mean, she was tough. And so I started training. I bought a set of Joe Weider weights. You don't even remember that day. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Oh, I do. I remember old Joe Weider, too. Big old mustache. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:10:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:10:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So I bought a set of that and started lifting weights. I've been lifting weights since I was 14, and that helped me later, especially in HRT, and just started working out a lot. And then when I. Before I could really got very mobile, I used to sit in a chair in the backyard, and my dad would put clothespins on my mother's clothesline, and I shoot them off with my daisy bb gun. [00:11:15] Speaker B: Hey. Spin them. [00:11:17] Speaker A: I spent hours doing that, and I can't do much good in life. I can really shoot. So I think that kind of. That was kind of important because I was good. I mean, I became a firearms instructor. I was on the sniper team, the FBI. So I think that kind of set the tone, and I think the idea of a lifestyle change where you work out all the time, I think that that helped. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah, that could have been. I was in hidden blessing, too. [00:11:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I still do. I lift my weights yesterday. I know. [00:11:50] Speaker B: I've told people about you that you bring your TRX and hotel rooms and everything, so the guys. Nuts. [00:11:57] Speaker A: My TRX has been around the world twice. Literally. You know, they come in a little bag and. Yeah, it's literally been around the world twice. Yeah, I took it all over. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Those are some crazy workouts. But, you know, everybody. All these hotels have a weight room now and a treadmills and everything else. [00:12:13] Speaker A: They do, but some of them are good and some are bad. The TRX, I like it because it. It works your core, and it works everything, and it's hard stuff. I mean, it's. They have a thing called the 40 40 challenge. It's insane. You have to do 40 atomic push ups and then 40 rows. And I did that when I was probably 78 or 78, something like that. It took me six months where I could accomplish that. It was horrible. I mean, you know, you work out, you know, when you're doing push ups, you can do four and then you push hard and do five. Or you can do 30 and push hard and do 31. You know, that's the way push ups are. You just got it out. Oh, no. [00:12:57] Speaker B: When you're done, you're done. [00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would do. These are push ups and then just claps on the floor and I do my rows. And then one day I got up, went up to my little gym in my house, and I was. I felt terrible. I mean, I just felt awful. I was coming to allergies and didn't feel good. So I. I went out, I started. Started doing them, and holy crap, I was at 37. [00:13:21] Speaker B: I did. [00:13:22] Speaker A: I did 40 and then fell on the floor and laid there for 20 minutes because it just taps you. [00:13:27] Speaker B: Are you allowed to break that long before you do the next? [00:13:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. You understand how you have to stay down for a while. And then I did the rows and they're easy for me. So, yeah, I finally did it. It was one of my milestones, I guess. [00:13:39] Speaker B: So when you went through the FBI academy, one of the things that I know, and we'll talk a little bit about how law enforcement in general has changed. And this is just a. Just barely broaching the topic, but when you went in, was there a physical fitness requirement? I assume so. Was it just kind of a standardized. I mean, this is before some of the. The clinical tests still push ups and sit ups and stuff like that? [00:14:03] Speaker A: Yeah, pull ups. Big, fast bug on pull ups. That's why I have a brand new shoulder made out of titanium. I did too many pull ups, but, yeah, yeah, a lot of pull ups. You had to do pull ups where you could eat, had to do pull ups where you could go to the range. I mean, they pushed you hard on. Being able to control your own body. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Weight was the prerequisite to get in. Was there a physical fitness requirement? Do you remember what it was? [00:14:24] Speaker A: Or. I think you had to do five pull ups and something like 30 push ups. But that was easy for me. That was not hard. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:31] Speaker A: And I forgot some number of setups. You had to run a little bit. I mean, it was. I mean, I think given the nature of our society today, you probably find one in 100 can do that now. That's what the military is finding. They can't get anybody passive well, and. [00:14:47] Speaker B: We have a pt test, you know, at our security. [00:14:49] Speaker A: I know you do. [00:14:49] Speaker B: So, I mean, I see a lot of that, too, but I also see a lot of the police departments lowering standards or altering standards, so to speak, and, I don't know, federally if they're doing the same thing. [00:15:03] Speaker A: I don't think so. [00:15:04] Speaker B: No. [00:15:04] Speaker A: Theirs are still pretty high, but it's. [00:15:06] Speaker B: Difficult to get people in. And they just think of if we can plug in the integrity piece and get them in shape, then I think they're coming up with different things that they can qualify as physical. [00:15:18] Speaker A: That's a good observation, Tegan, but I don't believe in that. I ran selection for the FBI's hostage rescue team. That's horrible. I took it, and it's really hard. And I'd have guys come back to the academy wanting to be on this, which is a pretty elite unit. There's only three of us, only seal team six, Delta and HRT. That's the only counter terrorist things we have in our country. And they would come back and they would like, what are you doing here? And I'd go see him. I said, I'm gonna send you home tomorrow. You better step it up one day. For generation two, I'm kind of getting off limits. [00:15:56] Speaker B: No, it's fine. [00:15:56] Speaker A: No, no, no. Yeah, for gen two. I went out the morning of selection and ran the whole course. And I did okay. And then the candidates came out and they ran it, and I bet over half of them. And because everybody knows that selection course is horrible, and so they're trying to pace themselves. They don't work themselves into exhaustion. On the first day, they were pacing themselves. So I got all the candidates and I put them on a bleacher there at the academy, right by the horse. And I sent all the operators. I said, okay, boys, I'm looking for a man that'll run into a room and shoot a terrorist in the chest. So far, I don't see them here. I said, I'm not tying out for fucking Ranger Rick camp. You're trying out for the hostage rescue team now. Step it up. Walked away, man. The rest of the time, they were. They were burning. Sometimes you'd have to motivate them. And I'm not too. I'm not of the kinder, gentler FBI. [00:16:57] Speaker B: Oh, I totally understand that. And I think there should be. And I think there still is a difference. There's a discrepancy between saying you can be a police officer or an agent versus you can be in a special forces unit or a SWAT team or whatever. I do know that a lot of those qualifications within at least the major metro PD's and stuff are a lot more tumultuous and certainly at the level that you're talking about, which is the FBI hostage rescue team, for those that we've not gotten to that part yet, but an elite counterterrorist unit, well, it's going to be a different level of work. [00:17:33] Speaker A: With a Fort Worth PDF. They have, I think, one of the top SWAT teams in the country. [00:17:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:38] Speaker A: Their pt is tough. [00:17:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:40] Speaker A: I helped a guy get into the Fort Worth police academy, was one of my wife's students. And he's a stud. And I think he was a stud among people who weren't so studly. Now he could pass anything. Really good kid, really smart. Played football in college and wrestled, and he's a tough guy. Yeah. But I do think that. I think Dallas PD has a great SWAT team. I've worked with them a lot, too. [00:18:09] Speaker B: Me too. [00:18:09] Speaker A: Excuse me. And I think we're doing a disservice to our youth by saying, well, we'll accommodate you. And my position is you're joining me. I'm not joining you. [00:18:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:24] Speaker A: And if you can't do it, I don't want you around. You know, my son's a policeman. Or just retired as a policeman. [00:18:30] Speaker B: Did he really? Okay, good. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah, he's retired, him and his dog. He retired when his dog had retired. [00:18:35] Speaker B: Out of Oregon, too. Right? [00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. All places. So, I mean, he talks to me about the quality of policemen they're getting out there and it's like, I'm glad he's not there anymore. [00:18:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's my point. When you start doing something more significant, and I know not everybody has to be a gym rat, so that's why you, if you're doing an entry level thing, which I was asking about the FBI requirements, and, you know, push ups and sit ups, and you have to be in good shape. But you don't have to be a gym rat because they also want you to be able to shoot. They want you to be able to think, they want you to build concern, fitting into culture. Of course, all of that's important. So you can't be a ten on all those things necessarily, but you start going into those bigger, more important units where shooting is quite possible more often. Every time you go to work and things like that, you've got to work on all those other things. So, um, and that's the perfect example is that when your son left, he's just thinking, and I was in the same boat, we would, you know, you'd gather a team and you're going to go do a dynamic entry and you've got eight folks and two perimeter folks. And you're like, I'm going to make you the front of the stick cause I don't want you behind me. [00:19:46] Speaker A: I always said, I always had them wait in the car and run the radio. That was where that is. I didn't want them around like, hey. [00:19:53] Speaker B: If you're gonna shoot something, just, you know, shoot that door if you have to, I suppose. But yeah, I mean, there's always that. Cause you've got only so many people in so many units. The more elite you get. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:20:04] Speaker B: The more significant the teams are gonna be. So you leverage the SWAT team. You already know there isn't going to. There is a weak link, of course, on every team, somebody, somebody weaker than. [00:20:15] Speaker A: The next, but somebody is not as good as everybody else. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:17] Speaker A: But still on the weakness, pretty damn good, right. [00:20:21] Speaker B: The weakest link is still better than us, which is the point. [00:20:24] Speaker A: Delta Force or army Rangers or, um, I think the guys that I admire the most, these pee jumpers, the air force guys. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:32] Speaker A: They're some of the biggest studs I've ever seen in my entire life. I've used them, I've worked with them. They're pretty manly. [00:20:38] Speaker B: So what do you think are. I was curious. So first, maybe just without spending a ton of time on, explain what the HRT is and how you ended up becoming in charge and forming it and stuff like that. Also, so that we can then discuss some of the missions then versus now, because I'm really curious to get into some of the disparity between how things were done and how things are done now. [00:21:06] Speaker A: Okay, that's pretty easy. There was a debate in the government about what would we do if there was a terrorist action in the United States, a level three or level four, high risk automatic weapons, hand grenades and that kind of stuff, with hostages. So the FBI and the Department of Defense put on some exercises at the academy. I'll try to go quickly through this. The White House came and they watched the WFO SWAT team do an exercise. They watched the Delta force do an exercise. And one is law enforcement, one's not. I think you know that you can't use the military in a law enforcement capacity because of posse comitatus, which were laws passed over the civil war. So a White House rep went to the director and said, well, we don't want the military to do it. You're going to do it. I suggest you might want to get ready for it. So he, he picked up a man named John Byron Hotas, who interesting guy. Big Jim Rat, as you mentioned earlier, big workout guy. He had a law degree from Duke. He had a masters in law from Harvard and a doctorate in law from Yale. Super smart guy. He got the task to write the concept paper and he did it. And then they had a selection committee, and they picked me to do it. They picked me to create it. [00:22:38] Speaker B: And what, at what rank were you at the time? That. [00:22:42] Speaker A: That it would be like a colonel. In the military, we call them unit chiefs, okay? It'd be a colonel rank. And that's what. At that time, all the CT units were commanded by colonels. So that's what I was, my rank. It was called assistant special agent in charge. And they gave me the task to do it. It was the hardest thing I ever done in my entire life. Although they gave me everything I wanted, it was amazing. William Webster was the director. He liked me because we had an association. And he, when I went to deploy to go do it, he said, I want the best counter terrorist team in the world. Expect you to give it to me. And I said, I can do that if you help me, because a lot of people are not going to want to help me. A lot of people going to fight me. And there were a lot of wars. The HRT had a budget of zero. We had no money, because you have to go through the congressional process to do that. So I'm spending a lot of money. You can imagine. I mean, the radios cost more than downtown Fort Worth. I mean, because they were privacy radios nobody could monitor. And we had the best weapons in the world. We had mp5 submachine guns made by H and K. We had, I mean, explosive breaching. We had body armor and diversionary devices, hand grenades, and all these things you gotta buy, then you gotta. [00:24:04] Speaker B: Starting from nothing. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Absolutely zero. Absolute zero. I mean, I had a. And then I picked the team. I ran the selection, and that was a problem. [00:24:13] Speaker B: So what was the selection process and. [00:24:15] Speaker A: Why was it a problem? It was horrible. It was horrible. Probably a mark would be, if you can't do at least 100 push ups and probably 35 pull ups, you're not. [00:24:26] Speaker B: Going to make it. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Now, that wasn't the criteria. I'm just trying to give you a mark to say if you can't do. I was swimming. [00:24:33] Speaker B: That's a starting point. [00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Swimming was the hardest thing for me. That was really hard. Every day we swam 2 miles and our gear and our clothes, and that was hard. That was difficult for me. [00:24:45] Speaker B: So was that something that you developed ahead of time and then learned? [00:24:49] Speaker A: No, here's where it went. The academy was very helpful, in part, and there were some really good guys at the academy in a unit called soars, and they developed the selection course. Then I knocked some stuff out because I didn't like some of it, so they developed it and I approved it, and then we did it. And swimming. We lost more guys from swimming failures than anything, I'm sure. [00:25:12] Speaker B: I mean, first of all, you gotta. I'm looking at it like I. When I think FBI, they're recruiting people like you who have a law degree or. [00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:21] Speaker B: Or finance or things like that. So you're not dealing with people that are not military trained folks in the first. [00:25:28] Speaker A: No, you're not. You're really not. I'll tell you something else, too, and this is hope. This is not sensitive. The problem we had was Afro Americans passing the swimming test because of the culture. They don't, you know, they don't have an opportunity to do a lot of swimming unless they're from Nigeria, where they swim like fish over there. But it's hard for them, probably. It was harder for me because I just can't swim. [00:25:55] Speaker B: And it's not that they couldn't swim, it was a cultural. [00:25:58] Speaker A: They'd never done it before. They never done it. And, you know, you. The selection course is horrible. I mean, it tests every phobia you've ever had. One of the things we did with them, we put them in a blacked out diving mask, put them in the pool. Just have. Stay there until we tell you to come out so you can't sweep. You're in a swimming pool, a big ass swimming pool, and you're trying to orient yourself. And some people got sick and threw up in the water. [00:26:25] Speaker B: Really? [00:26:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because you're disoriented, you know, you know which way is up and which ways down. Um, claustrophobia, we tested for that. That was. That was easier for me. It didn't bother me at all. But, um, we test them for, uh, phobias, for height. They have to do a lot of climbing on the obstacle course at the academy, which are, for the marines, that's hard. I mean, to climb those stairway to heaven and those things. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:48] Speaker A: It wasn't particularly hard for me because I didn't. I'm good with heights. It didn't bother me that much. [00:26:54] Speaker B: That seems like most of it, because otherwise stairs are stairs or stairs. You're in great shape. You can run stairs, but you put stairs that are 3ft wide and go straight up in the air. [00:27:04] Speaker A: They're five and a half feet apart, where you got to jump up and grab it and pull yourself up a tower. So that was hard. That was one of the harder things, I guess, but. And the big thing, tegan, is that how do they perform as a team? Because this is a team, and it's probably one of the most intense teams in our country. I'm one of the three, at least. And that was. Some guys didn't get it. And when they go to a course, the instructors, first of all, they weren't allowed to talk to us. They couldn't say a word to us. I don't want. First of all, I don't talk to them. And our instructors, who would tell them, this is a team event and be a five man team, and you have to get yourself through it. Well, some guys would do that. I mean, one guy named Don Glasser, who's a Navy SEAL, fleet heavyweight boxing champ, he was a stud. Best shape anybody I. One of the best I've ever seen. And he got his people through the course because there's a lot of climbing and there's, you know, he's also a. [00:28:16] Speaker B: Seal, so he's used to teamwork. [00:28:17] Speaker A: He's used to teamwork. Yeah, he did really well. Another guy in the same event was equally as good. A shame he ran off and left the team. [00:28:26] Speaker B: So that was going to be my next question, because you're talking about taking elite athletes and skilled people that can get beyond adversity, which through their entire lives, they've been a standout and compete to be the number one. And now you're trying to completely shift their mindset. So how do you take somebody that's at that kind of a mindset that says, I'm the dominant athlete. I always have been. I've made it to this grandiose level, and now I'm responsible for the lowest common denominator. Like, how did you, how did you teach that to them? [00:29:01] Speaker A: They didn't learn it. They didn't get on the team. [00:29:03] Speaker B: They failed. [00:29:04] Speaker A: The ones that ran off and left their team didn't help. [00:29:07] Speaker B: Gone. [00:29:08] Speaker A: Like, their missions are super hard. They do crazy hard things. And I'm going to give you an example, gen two. One of our operators had been the first alternate on the US decathlon team. He was an elite athlete and he did well. He was a team player. He could do all the things we do, all the climbing, all the height work. He could fast rope out of a helicopter, which is very dangerous. We've killed more people, fast rope than we have in combat, it's pretty bad. And he did really, really well and made it. He. Once you pass selection, you go to knots and you say, they're six months, and that's where you continue your training and learn your skill sets. And I'm in my office one day, and there's a knock on the door, and he comes in with his team leader, and he's just Ashen. And I said, what's going on? He couldn't even talk to me. His team leader said, he can't repel off the dorm. One of the things you have to do is learn to repel, which you have to. I said, what do you mean you can't repel? I said, you can't commit suicide repelling. If you let go, somebody's going to hold you, you belay them. And he said, I don't know. When I get that wall, I can't go over it. I said, well, here's the deal. Go do it or pack your stuff up and leave, because I can't be. I can't be wondering as a commander, I'm not very smart, so I can't remember who can repel? Who can't. I frankly don't care. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah. When the time comes, you got to either do it or not. [00:30:38] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:30:38] Speaker B: There's no time to delay. [00:30:39] Speaker A: Right, exactly. So came back 45 minutes later, said, I can't do it. I cannot do it. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Wow. [00:30:48] Speaker A: I said, here's the deal. Here's the way I feel about better you die today than not make, than not do this, because the rest of your career, you're coming back here and they're going to look at that dormitory and you're saying, everybody. I mean, when you go through selection for the HRT, it's. It's monumental. And you really want to pass because you want to be a part of that, part of the mystique and part of the adventure. [00:31:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:15] Speaker A: And I said, get in my car. So I went and I got my, got my repelling gear out of my kit bag, and so I jocked up. [00:31:23] Speaker B: And we went scaring the crap out of him already. [00:31:26] Speaker A: That ride's got to be. No, he was dying. So we go over to the dorm, we ride the elevator up, and he's like this. That's really nervous. So we get up there, and the team had already put another line down. And so I roped him into his bottle. You know how to repel with a bottle opener thing? So I roped him in. I said, get on the ledge. And he gets on the ledge, and I get behind him and I take his feet and push him off. So he's hanging twelve stories above the ground and I'm hanging with him. I said, stand up. And he stood up and he's like really nervous. So when you, when you rappel, you announce on rappel and the guy below says on belay. That way you know you're, you're sitting. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:32:09] Speaker A: It's kind of a hard landing. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:11] Speaker A: So, uh, he announced and he kind of went on rappel. So I smacked him in the face and just hit him right across the forehead and I said, let's go. So he went down and said, we went back up and we, and then did the same thing. Get up there. And I said again, this time you're going to bound out because we're in repel you push out, kick back and land with your feet, hopefully against the building. So he did it like five times. And we got to the bottom of the fifth time. I said, I trust I don't have to do this again. He said, no, sir, I got it. I said, I know you do. So the exo came over to me and said, better you die today than not do this. I said, I really believe that. But here's the deal. We cannot let each other fail. That's what it's all about. That was why I took them, because another commander would have taken them, probably any of us would have. But we, we don't have the luxury of failure because the reputation of our country is riding on our shoulders and the life and death of hostages riding on our shoulders. So it was a great example. The team loved it. They thought it was awesome. [00:33:17] Speaker B: But you saw a particular. There was something about him, though, that struck you. Cause there's plenty of people that do fail and you allow them to fail. This guy must have really had not. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Yes, that's true. Except not many people fail during knots because by the time you get to new predator training, you pretty much have weeded out the mountains and you can't do it. [00:33:40] Speaker B: Understood. [00:33:41] Speaker A: We had another guy. We had a mission where we had to go through tunnels underneath the building to get to the bottom of a building to go up and rescue hostages. He about crapped out in there. He had, he had claustrophobia. We didn't know it. And actually one of my Navy SeALs took him by the hand, led him through the tunnel and he got up. He did okay. He did fine. He operated. Once he got, he was so pissed off that he went right through the mission and did it. So we learned a lot in Gen one, Gen two, about who can pass, who can't. So there's not much that gets by them now. Matter of fact, I went back for selection about a year and a year ago. It's, it's, it's hard. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Still, still intense. I'm sure it is, but still elite. It's. That's what sets it apart. And that's what makes it a little more difficult at every level, though, because you have fewer and fewer people to pick from. Standards at the bottom are lower. Then you're consistently messing with the pool of people to. [00:34:39] Speaker A: Well, let me make it even harder for you. It's so hard, you can't get people to try out for it. Oh, gosh. You ever think about that? [00:34:47] Speaker B: Well, I hadn't. Because, I mean, I mean, it seems like everybody would want that job. It seems like if you were in that, if you were in that, you're already an agent and everything. Well, not that everybody could. That's my point. Like, everyone, like, yeah, I want to gear up and go do all this action packed stuff. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to be on tv. [00:35:04] Speaker B: Most people cannot. Yeah. Then you pick the 1% and you move on. [00:35:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:07] Speaker B: But now people don't want to. [00:35:09] Speaker A: The commander of GIGN, which is a german countertop with, was named, a guy named Ulrich Begner. He was their colonel. It's the west german border guard. And I would have been trained with him for a while. After the team was stood up, he came over to meet with the director, and he told him about how much help I was going to need from the director, because all these underlings were going to try to be screwing with us. And here's what part of the reason for it. None of those guys that are high ranking officials in the FBI could ever go through selection and pass. So there's a resentment there to the things we do. [00:35:44] Speaker B: I get that. That's why I was asking, too, if you, once it was set up, if you made sure that you worked yourself up to standard to where you were leading from the front. [00:35:53] Speaker A: Oh, well, yeah, physical. You gotta be the first one, last one to leave, first one in that kind of thing. But you have to have unbelievable support from the very top. I had a guy who went, who wanted to go through selection, and his assistant director wouldn't let him because he's one of the top explosive experts in the world. And I need an explosive expert to help me do breaching. I need to blow the door down or blow the wall down. So I need him desperately. So his assistant director said no and he was a friend of mine. I said, well, I'm going to go to the director. He said, I knew you would. So I went to Webster and Webster, you got him. I mean, you just have to do things like that. When you do it. You create some enemies. [00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah. It wasn't something you would typically do unless it was that important, I assume. [00:36:37] Speaker A: Right. They weren't going to send them to rescue hostage. They were going to send me. And so it's a little, there's some jealousy there. And I mean, you see it in the military. You know, what do they call. People aren't airborne. They call them straight legs because they never had to bend their legs and they hit the ground. So it's kind of that thing. But he pulled a lot of things out. There was another guy who was a top espionage FBI agent in the world. Guy was a stud. Good guy. Still friends. As Derry minute he wanted to go through selection, his assistant director wouldn't let him. So trotted my little self up to see the director said, you got them. So they were. I had great support. At least it was kind of support in the middle, at the top and then the middle. Edge echelons, not so much. But you know, it was, it was. I got a great opportunity. I got to work with 50 of the best top people in the FBI could ever know. And to this day they've done things nobody's done since then. They pulled off stuff. [00:37:44] Speaker B: And so maybe this is, I haven't been on these hostage rescue missions all over the world. So back in the seventies, it seemed, this is just my perception, you know, having lived through a period of time where it seemed like there was turmoil overseas. [00:38:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:38:02] Speaker B: And then all of a sudden people were like, hey, what happened to the SEAL team? And then all of a sudden somebody's assassinated and they're coming up wet. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:12] Speaker B: I'm curious now. I understand the value in that and I think it's really valuable. And sometimes you wish we would go back to it. But I also understand politically what a mess that could also be. Obviously, did you function because it seemed like you were in a transitional period where that was sort of the accepted thing, but was obviously graduating into the era where everybody kind of knows everything and everybody finger screws everything at every level, which restricts your ability to go do dark ops. Can you talk about the differences? [00:38:46] Speaker A: I can. That's a really good question. You got to remember that Europe is way ahead of us on creating counterterrorism because they had a problem. You had the british SAS, which I still think may be the best you had gig on, which is a french team. You had GSG nine, which is german team. And actually GSG nine came to the academy for us to teach them how to shoot. And so the French, they all came to us for firearms. I think the bureau still is the best in the world teaching farms. And so they were stood up. So when our teams came into being, Charlie Beckwith, who commanded Delta, he went back over there and went through the SAS stuff. He also went to CGI, GN and GSG nine. And so it was kind of one hand washing the other. And that helped a lot. Helped me, too. When I started working with those other teams. They were very helpful to me. Those actually the French, which I think will surprise you, they were one of the best. They really helped me a lot. The SAS helped a great deal and the French did too. They were all just opened their doors. [00:39:59] Speaker B: That's smart. That's smart. I mean, you're talking about working with the Allies anyway. You may as well. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Well, you might as well also we had a terrorist operation against a group that had really sophisticated gear. They had night vision and stuff like that. And I had night vision. I didn't have thermal. Thermal is much better. So I called Michael Rose, who was a commander of the SAS, and said, can I borrow some of your thermal? And he said, it'll be on plane tomorrow. The only thing I need is I want a brief on your op. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:31] Speaker A: And we were successful. The thermal made our op and kept us alive. And. And so it's there. There is a back channel relationship between these other teams. I could get things done in France that our liaison people couldn't because I. [00:40:47] Speaker B: Knew their operators by somewhat subcontracting, so to speak, where they would do the mission or they would allow you to come work both. [00:40:59] Speaker A: I will tell you one of the things that the Germans especially really interested in or are neo nazi investigations here in the United States, because that was taken off then. This was before McVeigh and the bombing in Oklahoma and things like that. So they were always interested in what we were doing with it, with the ultra far right. And they helped them and we helped us. And sometimes it wasn't official, but it worked. [00:41:24] Speaker B: So what could you. Could you talk about on the record, off the record, what a. What an operation looked like, how you were dispatched? Who knew? Oh, okay. And once it was successful looking into, since you still have contact with all of these guys, are there struggles to do things with the same anonymity now? [00:41:52] Speaker A: Well, we did a lot of things that nobody really ever knew about. [00:41:55] Speaker B: Right. That's what I'd like to know about now. [00:41:57] Speaker A: They don't know about it now, so we won't talk about it. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Come on. That's why I said on the record, off the record, you, I mean, do the, do the Marcinko crowd. Just, you know, this never happened. But I'll give you a scenario where something might be similar to something that was accomplished. [00:42:15] Speaker A: I don't even know you a little bit about that. [00:42:17] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:19] Speaker A: Because we have these relationships with other teams, and sometimes our expertise is a little better in certain areas. We'll go do them with them as them. And so we don't know the HRT is ever there. SEAL team's there. So you just go in. A lot of times when we have a big op, they want to come over and be with us. They want to participate in it, and that happens. That's very helpful. I might give you an example. There was a terrorist group, neo nazi group in Arkansas. They had law rockets, claymore mines, automatic weapons, hand grenades, night vision gear. And they trained all the time. They were really good. And I got a call from the deputy director, Lee Caldwell. He said, come see me. So, I mean, FBI headquarters is a suit and tie operation, as you might guess. And I was not in a suit and tie. Came up in a pair of jeans and cowboy boots and walked into the deputy director's office, and I got a job for you. And he gives it to me. He said, he said, they've got same thing I just explained to you, law rockets, they're well trained. They have night vision gear, they have claymore mines, and I mean, all this stuff. And I'm just taking notes. And I said, okay. I say, can I. Can I deploy? He said, you didn't say oh, shit. I said, you don't pay me to say oh, shit. You pay me to go do it. And when I go brief the team, they're not going to say oh, shit either. They're just going to get ready and go do it. [00:43:47] Speaker B: That's what you do. [00:43:48] Speaker A: That's what we do for you. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:50] Speaker A: And he said, colson, I'm not so sure you have much humility. [00:43:56] Speaker B: Something's never changed. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Well, true. And then he said, I'm not so sure you need much. I said, you don't pay me to have humility. You tell me to do these jobs and you give them these things to do it. We're going to go do it. And it's interesting, when I went back to the academy and drove right down there and called the TMN. I told them they just were taking notes. I mean, nobody went, okay. I mean, it wasn't like, oh crap, they've got night vision. How are we going to get in there? That never came up. That just, we have to plan for it up. Appointed a SWAT, I'm sorry, an assault team leader, one of my best team leaders, he planned the whole op. And then we did an advance and we went and got ready for it. We actually, I took a recon team inside the compound. We went actually inside their compound so we could make notes and figure out where we're going to breach and how. [00:44:42] Speaker B: Right. And then for some of the novices that watch the show too, we're not, we're not dealing with experts in the field too. So a reconnaissance is essentially that, I. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Mean, I did a reconnaissance. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:55] Speaker A: That big because they had 100 hostages too. It was a big deal. You got, you have to put boots on the ground and the commander's got to go. You got to know, first of all, you got to know that what they're telling you is accurate. You got to know what they're telling they can do. They can actually do it. And I knew what they could do and what they couldn't do. So we put together a five men, 4519, and we went into the compound, went actually inside the compound and made our notes and took our pictures and things. [00:45:24] Speaker B: How'd you get in in that case? [00:45:25] Speaker A: What were you just patrolled in? We'd using our stuff. Okay, night beer night. [00:45:31] Speaker B: Because I mean, they're not actively out with night vision at all hours. That's what they used to train. [00:45:36] Speaker A: They were patrolling. They were looking for us. Yeah, they were, they knew we were coming. [00:45:40] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:45:40] Speaker A: So we just patrolled around and then the director, I'm sorry, the assistant director helped me big time. We're in a planning meeting in a hotel one night, knock on the door and this really attractive blonde comes in and said, I'm looking for Danny Colson. That's me. So Bart, she said, she said, buck Revell sent me, we're with Nightstalker. He said he's authorized you to use that, that asset on this job. Nightstalker was a Mitsubishi airplane. They flew up about 7000ft and had thermal, they could see everything on the ground for miles around. And she was the operator, she wasn't. [00:46:18] Speaker B: Old drone, huh? An old school drone almost with people. [00:46:22] Speaker A: On it, but better. I mean, they were unbelievable. They gave me a tour of it while we were there and it was like, oh, my God, this is going to help me a lot. So when we launched the operation, we went in, they were up guiding us, and she would tell me, she would say her name was Grits. She'd say, doc, doc, you got a unit coming right here. You're at your zero. And so we'd go around them. We did go like this, and we go around and come out the other side. So she vectored me in. [00:46:54] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, I'll tell you, good shit is we were chasing a guy one night, one night in the woods, and we're right on him, and we're getting closer and closer and closer, and she's directed us in. He said, he's right in front of you. And then we got to a lake, and I can't find him. I said, grits, I don't see him. She said, reach into the water. He's under the water. Because she could see him underwater because his heat was different temperature than the water. [00:47:21] Speaker B: It seems like it would show up even more in the. [00:47:22] Speaker A: Oh, it does. She saved our bacon. And we got in and trapped these guys, and we played with them for about five days, and they all gave up and came out all surrendered. They got tired of talking to me. [00:47:37] Speaker B: That'll make them surrender. [00:47:38] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:47:39] Speaker B: Now we know your weakness too. Like, Danny Colson, please. Yes, ma'am. That's the assassination plot right there. Danny Colson. [00:47:46] Speaker A: That's exactly it. [00:47:47] Speaker B: Okay. And so now do you think it's a lot more difficult to either get a green light or is there more red tape? I know there's always been red tape. [00:47:58] Speaker A: But there wasn't for me. It went right for me to the assistant director, and he never told me no, ever. He let me do what I wanted. I mean, at this standoff, the commander of their operation came out, and I talked to him, let him go back in. And I got a call from some supervisor headquarters. Why didn't you arrest him? I said, why don't you go shutting your hat? I'm doing this. You're not. And he was my. He was my superior. But, you know, sometimes they kind of tend to put crazier people in these positions that aren't caring about career much. [00:48:34] Speaker B: Everybody has their own objectives, and as you know now, certainly it's a lot more cumbersome to be in charge of people who are doing crazy, wacky stuff like that. [00:48:44] Speaker A: Oh, it's hard. [00:48:45] Speaker B: And knowing that the level of accountability is pretty extraordinary, I mean, that's something I never appreciated either until I was in charge. I used to run and gun all the time, like, and just get pissed off when people would try to, you know, get their hands and want to know what I'm doing all the time. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Exactly. No, that. [00:49:00] Speaker B: I understand the importance. [00:49:02] Speaker A: That's a great observation. You have to have people above you that know you and know you're. You're not crazy. I mean, like, well, a little bit crazy, but you're not stupid. [00:49:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:13] Speaker A: And we had that. I think now I think they're pretty. I think it's still the same. The HRT's record is really good. And they do crazy things that most people say, I don't want to do that. And they're successful because they. They train every day. They're at work. They shoot their guns almost every day of their life, and they, they train on close quarter battle and explosive breaching and all these, these disciplines they have. So it's not like. It's not like they're an unknown entity. When I got it, we were total unknown entity. Nobody knew. Heck, we were. And now I think the record that we started and the record that they made even better gives them so much credibility. They did. The current team did a operation. You might have read about it. This crazy guy attacked a school bus and took one of the little boys off the bus and they put him in a bunker underground. And HRT deployed and started negotiation and it became pretty clear he'd not given up. So they did an explosive breach on. They had a hatch. He had a hatch on the interest of the bucket, they blew it off, but he put a bunch of bicycle cable locks across the opening. So when the hatch went, they didn't go. So now he's shooting at them. He's firing up. And they had. They were. I think they threw like 25 flashbangs on them, destroying them. And he's still shooting. And so they took wire cutters and cut them. And an agent dove into the bunker and grabbed a little boy and two other guys drove in and killed him. That's pretty high tech, that. Yeah. [00:50:58] Speaker B: And that is, again, there's only so much you can do, and you have to have the person that's willing to, you know, we've had a situation like that where a dude was in the attic and, you know, in the attic, you know, he's armed. There's got to be a dude that goes in there first. And the first thing that goes in is you're noggin. You just got to be the one to do that. [00:51:16] Speaker A: Remember what I said to you earlier? You can't let your other fail. [00:51:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:19] Speaker A: You cannot fail, right? That cannot happen. Other countries. Happens all the time. I did a tv show on a failed mission in Philippines. They just screwed it up. They were just terrible. I mean, the three of us could have done the mission pretty easy, and they were terrible, and you could, but you don't have that. You don't have the luxury of failure. And that young man, that operator, he got the presidential medal of freedom for them. [00:51:46] Speaker B: Well, he should. [00:51:47] Speaker A: He should at least. [00:51:48] Speaker B: Unappreciable, too. I mean, and I know a lot of guys like that don't get credit when you're doing missions like that. It's. You didn't see that guy on the news. [00:51:57] Speaker A: No, you didn't. [00:51:58] Speaker B: So that's. That's the whole point. I mean, it's an admirable profession. It's. [00:52:01] Speaker A: It's, you know, not like some of these. Not like the man who shot Osama bin Laden. That bothers me big time. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:11] Speaker A: I'm a big fan of Navy Seals. I think they're a blessing to our country. And I had several on the team with me, and they were superb people, and I hate to see one guy do that. That bothers me a lot because they're. [00:52:24] Speaker B: So discreet otherwise, even after the fact. [00:52:27] Speaker A: Yeah. The Navy says he didn't do it, so, you know, what's this all about? [00:52:32] Speaker B: That's interesting. Well, you knew Marcinko, so, you know, there's. There's all, questions abound, whether. Whether the Navy says it or not. Sometimes you still have questions, right? [00:52:41] Speaker A: Oh, well, Dick Marsenko was the founding commander of SEAL team six. We were good, good friends. [00:52:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:46] Speaker A: We did ops together. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:48] Speaker A: And I may be a little crazy. He's major crazy. He just passed away. My slave. [00:52:53] Speaker B: I know. Yeah. What, three. It's been three years, so now. Yeah. [00:52:56] Speaker A: He's good, man. [00:52:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I was wanting to hit you up to get an introduction to the guy because. Oh, he's been a. [00:53:02] Speaker A: He and I were close friends. He came to my house for dinner a lot, and he was just so outrageous that I had to send my son back to bed so he wouldn't hear some of his stories, who's now policeman, but, oh, yeah, Marsenko was. He's quite a guy. [00:53:19] Speaker B: That's awesome. So, obviously, you moved onward and upward in terms of career trajectory, and you worked with Oklahoma City and all that kind of stuff. And one of the more interesting aspects of some of the things you did, and we've talked about OKC and all those things, the prison rides you've done. Did you work the Atlanta prison riots? [00:53:39] Speaker A: I was a commander there. [00:53:40] Speaker B: Okay? So I know that we've gone into great detail on those. We don't have to go rehash necessarily all those details, but notably, you have a friend, which I know you. So this is why this is even more remarkable, because you're you. You, like, shoot the bad guys. That's it. You go home and you have a friend. That is one of the bad, bad guys. Yeah, that is a friend. You want to tell me how that came about? [00:54:07] Speaker A: Yeah. At the operation we did against the covenant, sword and arm of the Lord, one of the terrorists, the second in command, was a man named Kerry Noble. And he's the first guy that came out when we told him to come out. And I'd never seen anybody so frightened in my entire life. He was terrified. And he came out and met with me and he said, are you Delta? I said, no. He said, you look like Delta. I said, delta thinks we look like Delta, too. [00:54:33] Speaker B: I'm Alpha. [00:54:35] Speaker A: Exactly. So anyway, make a long story short. We had them trapped in there, and they finally surrendered. They came out and he went to prison for a number of years, and he. [00:54:46] Speaker B: For what, specifically? [00:54:48] Speaker A: Sedition. Planning to assassinate the United States attorney in Arkansas and a bunch of stuff. They were going to kill judges, and they were a lot of conspiracy charges. So he goes to prison, and in the meantime, he found Jesus, he found a religion, and he converted away from that nonsense. And I'd just taken over the division in Dallas. I was new commander in Dallas, and I got a call from one day through my secretary and said. She said, kerry Noble's on the phone. I thought he was calling me from prison. And so he said, danny, this is Kerry. I said, well, kerry, are you out of jail? He said, I am. He said, I'd like to meet with you. I said, I bet you would. I said, okay. So he wanted me to meet him. So I. I drew. I grabbed my browning high power, which is our weapon, and I put a hand grenade in each pocket and took my mp5. And I went out and met him. And we took my deputy and we talked probably for a couple hours. And he had a bunch of pictures of his compound, which I had them anyway, but he showed them to me and we talked. [00:55:56] Speaker B: And at the end, you had a post compound function. [00:56:00] Speaker A: I had it before he was there. Anyway, I said, well, I had to go. So I said, I'm glad I didn't kill you. He said, I'm glad I didn't kill you, too. So make a long story. [00:56:13] Speaker B: High water, actually, isn't it? [00:56:14] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:15] Speaker B: The movie. [00:56:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So he became a friend of my family. He'd come to my house for dinner, went to my daughter's wedding, went to my daughter's graduation. We had a book signing party at my house one night, and I invited him to that. [00:56:32] Speaker B: For your book? [00:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:56:33] Speaker A: No heroes. And there was a young female lawyer there, and she sees him standing in the kitchen, and she goes, he said, yeah, I am baba. Whoever. Anyways, I don't remember now. He said, well, I'm Kerry noble. She said, well, how do you know Danny? He said, well, he put me in jail. And so she said, what'd you do? He said, I was a terrorist. And so, I mean, how do you answer that? She kind of rolled her eyes and she walked over to my wife and said, the guy over there, the big ugly guy with red hair, David said, yes. Danny put him in jail. He's a terrorist. [00:57:04] Speaker B: I thought he was so facetious. [00:57:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So we stayed Finn forever. He just recently passed away recently. HBO did a documentary on it, and one of the features was the fact that he was a bad guy. We became friends, and they filmed it at my house with him, with me. [00:57:22] Speaker B: That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And that's coming out, actually, 16th of next month. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Yeah. We went to, Debbie and I and the kids went to a private showing in Oklahoma City, Copeland City, two weeks ago. And it's. I've watched it. The documentary is good. It's not happy. It's about the bombing in Oklahoma, and it shows the people that were injured, and it talks about how Kerry Noble's group had planned to do it. And then we took them out. Then they, you know, guys came along and did it. So it's. It's a kind of moving thing. I took my grandchildren because they know nothing. They don't know. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:02] Speaker A: They have no clue who I am or what I've done. And so we also went to see the Oklahoma City bombing museum. [00:58:09] Speaker B: Yep. There's a big old gigantic Danny Colson in that sucker in there. [00:58:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, my youngest granddaughter, Marlow Lilly, said, papa, that's you. I said, that was me. And so that was. That was kind of a fun day. [00:58:24] Speaker B: That makes it worth it more than anything, right? [00:58:26] Speaker A: Well, yeah. Yes and no. I mean, yeah. I didn't go back to Oklahoma City for years. I mean, years. [00:58:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Because what? [00:58:37] Speaker A: I didn't want to. I'd been there when it mattered. In the middle of the bombing investigation, after we arrested McVeigh. They sent me out to Kingman, Arizona, to get the other guy, Terry Nichols. I'm sorry, Michael Fortier. And I never came back. You know, I did a Rencontre after that, and we had a meeting of all the Rencontre people in Oklahoma City. They all went to the museum. I didn't go. I didn't want to. [00:59:04] Speaker B: There had to be something some. That was. [00:59:06] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know. I just had no. I mean, I wasn't afraid to go. [00:59:10] Speaker B: Crap. [00:59:10] Speaker A: I commanded the damn thing. Um, it was just that I didn't want to go. I don't know why I didn't want to go. And NBC here in Fort Worth talked to me for years about doing a special and going up and touring it with them and videoing it. So I kept saying, I don't want to do that. And so they went to Debbie, and so we did it. Naturally. [00:59:37] Speaker B: The wife says, you're going, oh, okay. Yes, ma'am. [00:59:40] Speaker A: Yeah, you explained it to me. And so we toured it, and they filmed it. They filmed the conversation that she and I had together. And it's pretty good. It won an Emmy, as a matter of fact, because of her. She's very. She's pretty. [00:59:53] Speaker B: Well, kind of. It's a legacy event for you. I mean, there was a lot of stuff you've done, obviously, but that's a pretty significant thing. At least it is so recent that even younger folks know about that. [01:00:05] Speaker A: Did you know every student in the public schools in Oklahoma City has to tour that museum? They make them all do it. [01:00:11] Speaker B: Oh, that's smart. [01:00:12] Speaker A: And that's smart. [01:00:12] Speaker B: I think it is smart. [01:00:13] Speaker A: I think it's. I think it's a really cool event. I didn't learn anything clearly, but it was fun for me. My grandchildren loved it. My wife actually said, I've learned some things I didn't know before, so. Well, you know, it's not a good deal to be married to me. I mean, it's really not. I'll tell you an antidote here. This is after I left the FBI. I was with doing Tiger Wood security, and she and I had to go to Kinko's one day. And remember they used to have the newspaper boxes out front, had the front page. So we pulled up in front of Kinko's, and the headlines, FBI reveals tunnel under russian embassy. I said, why in the hell do we talk about that? I was really upset. She said, what do you know about that? I said, I dug it. That was one of the things they did when I left the team is, I went over and ran that program, and so they just don't know who we are. Yeah, they really don't. [01:01:16] Speaker B: Well, I think in my experience, too, I know your wife is curious and protective, as are any wives that are in that kind of environment. And I used to come home and get questions, and there was an understanding that you're gonna answer as much as is reasonable to an extent that you're not gonna upset them or make them try to make some kind of demand of you that you know you can't. Right. So I know you didn't, but. But that's why. Because she only knew 80% of kind of what's going on and then is learning after the fact, like, you, you. [01:01:57] Speaker A: Have to marry the right woman. Well, yeah, I mean, that's extremely important. We were dating and. Yeah, we were just dating. We weren't married yet. And I got a noticed a deployment. And when you deploy a unit like that, it's, you're busy. You got to talk to intel people, medical people, I mean, everybody. And so we're driving out to andrews where our planes were, and I'm on the phone talking to everybody. So we get there, and I get out of the truck, and I walk through the gate and get a salute, and I walk up the ramp of a c 141. I flew away. It was gone for a long time. So when I came back, she picked me up at the airport, and she said, by the way, do you know, you didn't tell me goodbye. You didn't kiss me. You didn't tell me you love me. She said, I could have driven you to the airport naked. You would not have noticed this if you drew. I would have noticed that. And then I said, you got to pick me up like that, too. And she said, good luck on that. I mean, that's the kind of people, thats the kind of woman you hope you would find. [01:03:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:08] Speaker A: After the bombing in Oklahoma, McVeighs supporters tried to kill our family, and the FBI intercepted some of them, and they didnt. Obviously, im here. They were successful, and that was pretty severe. That was pretty intense. And we know theyre serious because theyd blown up, blown up a building, killed 150 people. So we had to have a meeting with our families. We had two boys, two girls, and that was pretty intense. [01:03:38] Speaker B: So how do you do that? At that time, you were still actively working. I was in the FBI, and we've had some of those similar circumstances at different levels, obviously. But it's a fascinating concept that you're basically pulling family members who have no business being put in danger brought to the table. So how did you handle that? And what was the response of some of the family members when you say. [01:04:04] Speaker A: Look, that's a great question. [01:04:05] Speaker B: I've done this. I've put you in danger. I want to warn you of the circumstances. Protect yourself. I'm going to do all I can, but I'm also, when we're done, going to keep doing more. [01:04:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:04:15] Speaker B: How does that fly? [01:04:18] Speaker A: Actually, pretty well. The FBI came out and they put extra security in our house. Our daughters had little wafers on their collars. Hit that and then activated the police nap. He had to come. And that sounds pretty sophisticated. It's not. Only thing we show would be time of death. [01:04:36] Speaker B: It's a panic button. [01:04:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Time of death. There's dryers. We told them what we're going to do. We switched from Labrador retrievers to Rottweilers for protection. Dogs. Those. The roddies went in the car with my daughter's trail. They went, the school knew all about it. But there's just so much you can do. Again, my wife, in the meeting we had with the kids, she said, we're not hiding these guys. We got guns. You're going to go to prom, you're going to go to your soccer games, you're going to play baseball, you're going to do all your things. We're not changing anything. [01:05:13] Speaker B: How do they feel about that? [01:05:14] Speaker A: They're okay. [01:05:15] Speaker B: Kids are sort of naive. [01:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And they're kind of bulletproof. [01:05:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:19] Speaker A: They're young and stupid. [01:05:20] Speaker B: Right. But your wife, I'm impressed. [01:05:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I was, too. [01:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:24] Speaker A: She said, we're not having these. Matter of fact, she said, we're not having these bastards. They want to bring it, bring it. Every April 19, that week, we went to hiding. I took the kids, my family and my father. We went away to a secret place in the state for a week because that's kind of the hallmark of that movement, because it's. The 20th is Hitler's birthday. April 19 is, you know, what April 19 is all about. [01:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:49] Speaker A: So I think they handled it really well. I mean, I really do. [01:05:54] Speaker B: Even the extended family or was there. [01:05:57] Speaker A: We didn't know that. [01:06:00] Speaker B: You know, these guys that you're dealing with are somewhat sophisticated. Yes. So that's really the concern in our industry anyway. If, you know, you protect yourself to a reasonable degree from a dumbass who's going to do something that isn't going to be a kamikaze style attack, but. [01:06:19] Speaker A: Otherwise, obviously, you have experience with this. [01:06:23] Speaker B: I kind of. [01:06:24] Speaker A: I figured I was getting a gunfight every day. I would went out the door. I figured they may come today. So I was pretty well protected. [01:06:34] Speaker B: When. [01:06:35] Speaker A: I would take my daughter to a soccer game or kids out someplace. I had a hand grenade in his pocket. Uh, browning high powers is my favorite gun with me. And a and a m four in my car. So we were ready. Um, but even then, I mean, I. [01:06:49] Speaker B: If you weren't surprised, you were ready. I mean, you're trying to live life. I mean, that's the point, right? [01:06:54] Speaker A: Well, true. And. And that's what. That was Debbie's point. These kids deserve to go to prom. They deserve to go to their soccer games. They deserve to have a. A life. Um, one little boy came to our house one night to bring. He had a crush on my oldest daughter, and she'd had a big time soccer game and scored a bunch of goals and whatever. And so he brought her a coronation. A. She went South Lake Carol, and she brought her, I think, a yellow and white coronation. And he goes up to the front porch and puts it on the front porch. 30 seconds later, he was laying across the hood of a police car, terrified. And Debbie went out the door and he said, misses Colson, help me. So I went out and talked to the cops about it, said, he's okay. So, I mean, there were some. You know, one of the things that you have to cultivate in life is a sense of humor. When we were developing the team, the director had a psychiatrist named David Saskas come meet with me. And he came to see me, said, you know, you're going to be part of the history of our country. Is it? Hope not. That's generally a bad thing, but. And then he said, what the first character, personality, character trait you're looking for? I said, sense of humor, because the things we're going to be doing, people are going to die. He said, danny, it's like mass humor. It's the same thing. And I think they kind of adopted that. They still don't really know who we are. I came home from. I think I was. I was out doing the security for Tiger woods someplace, and I came home, and my daughter's home from college, and I go into the kitchen, tow my stuff down. I said, where's Jesse? And Debbie said, well, she's in the family. She's watching a movie about you. Okay. So I went into the family room, and there was a documentary done about one of the opposite dead, and there's a guy playing me, and Jesse looked at me, said, I don't know who in the hell you are. I said, I'm the guy that did your homework with you. That's all you need to know. [01:08:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And that guy's not nearly as much of a smart as you. [01:09:00] Speaker A: No. And he's better looking. They don't typecast, thank God. [01:09:04] Speaker B: And we did. We talked to Clay Alexander, who was one of the ATF guys that got shot in the Koresh. And I know that we've talked about that disaster, too. But he, you know, I can't remember exactly how. He says, I wish I could quit it better. But, you know, he talked about how they weren't going to get overtime. They knew it was a setup. They're being made to go. And, you know, he gets there and they start getting fired at. And he said, the guy next to him was like, and we're not getting overtime. [01:09:30] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. That's funny. [01:09:31] Speaker B: You know, that's almost the type of. That sense of humor is so rare because you could look at every situation as ominous and life threatening and you would be so stressed out, you would, you'd be dead in a minute. [01:09:44] Speaker A: Well, in your job, every day you went to work, you could die. [01:09:47] Speaker B: Yeah. But. So you have to have a little bit of. But I think that's why there's such a community in that, that type of respect, because they can understand where in any other context it would be the most politically incorrect thing to ever say to anyone else. But they have a different level of understanding because let me give you an. [01:10:08] Speaker A: Example on this recon we did at CSA. That's pretty intense because they're there to kill you. [01:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:16] Speaker A: And we patrolled in, got it done and patrolled out and we actually had to go. So far, we've trolled off our map. So we're going through these fields. I knew generally where I had to go. And so we're going through these fields. And one of my operators now, this is a guy's HRT operator. They're pretty, they're pretty tough. And he comes by, said, doc, there are cattle in here. I said, I know. He said, there's a bull over there. I said, don't worry, they can't see in the dark. He went, oh, thank God. So we keep going and we finally get picked up. We put infrared beams up and the pickup guys found us. And so we're in the van going back and we're riding along and kind of breaking tension a little bit. So the same operator said, I did not know that cattle cannot see in the dark. I said, all these seeds is fine. He said, you lied to us. And the sniper leader said, he lies to us all the time. Remember? He said, this is gonna be a lot of fun. It ain't fun. I mean, that's the same thing the ATF guy said to you in your interview, is that. And that's just the way you look at life, right? [01:11:24] Speaker B: And that was at death's door, practically. And it was for that guy. He's passed. [01:11:30] Speaker A: You know, a good friend of mine was on that roof, too. Bill Buford, ATF agent. He did the CSA raid with me. [01:11:36] Speaker B: Really? [01:11:36] Speaker A: We were very close friends. Yes. Maybe the best agent I've ever known. [01:11:40] Speaker B: I need to introduce you to Clay. I think that'd be a cool conversation just to talk about that particular op, because, I mean, he pulls no punches either. I mean, it was a giant screw job. Everybody knew it, and even he knew it. But, I mean, you're being commanded to go do this. I mean, it was bizarre. [01:11:56] Speaker A: That was criminal. Yeah, that have fired every one of those guys. [01:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:59] Speaker A: You know the new ATF director? I can't name his name now. He was one of the planners that op. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Was he really? Well, maybe he learned a whole lot from that experience. [01:12:09] Speaker A: Well, he should have learned. He should have retired to the left. [01:12:13] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe. So, uh. So you then retired. You wrote a book, no heroes, right? That's still out. You still. They did a movie on that already. [01:12:23] Speaker A: Well, we're trying to. We're having a little bit of a dispute. Mark Warburg wanted to do it. [01:12:27] Speaker B: Okay. [01:12:28] Speaker A: And Peter Berg, both of them wanted to do it. And my co author has put some impediments. [01:12:36] Speaker B: Roadblocks. [01:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, roadblock. That's a better word. [01:12:39] Speaker B: Well, now Mark Wahlberg's almost too old for you now. You know, eventually, huh? [01:12:44] Speaker A: I was 40 at the time. [01:12:45] Speaker B: I know. Mark Wahlberg's, like, my age. Is he really? Yeah. I mean, he's a stud. Still. He would do fine. I'm just being a little facetious. But, you know, eventually, like, all of us get old, even the actors. [01:12:56] Speaker A: Max Ryan. To do it. Who? I had to go meet with him. And he's a good guy. [01:13:01] Speaker B: Anything like Jack Ryan? [01:13:02] Speaker A: No, I'm not Jack. This is Max. He's. He's. He's fine. You know, I actually know Mark Wahlberg. [01:13:08] Speaker B: Do you? [01:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:09] Speaker B: Well, tell me. [01:13:10] Speaker A: Security work for them. [01:13:12] Speaker B: Oh, through the PGA deal, or. [01:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah, he was. He came out to our golf course and wanted to be there, and I wouldn't let him be without us. So we put skirt on. He was doing that movie down there, the fifth mile or something like that was, uh. It was an adventure thing he did where, you know, everybody got shot and whatever, which is always a bad thing. [01:13:33] Speaker B: I don't know that one necessarily. But, yeah, he's great. That would be great. I'd love to see that. Well, but I know that stuff takes forever plus ten years, so it really does. [01:13:43] Speaker A: It's almost. And, you know, when you do it. I had to go to Hollywood and interview a bunch of people, and they'd ask me, like, these ridiculous questions, how many of you guys are gay? I said, no, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, they want don't ask, don't. [01:13:55] Speaker B: Tell environment first that you came up in. [01:13:58] Speaker A: Right, exactly. So I don't care. But it doesn't matter. But they. [01:14:04] Speaker B: So that's an interesting. [01:14:06] Speaker A: How many. How many women are on the HRTs? Same number in Ms. Major league baseball. Exact same number. Zero. [01:14:14] Speaker B: Okay. So that's an interesting idea that I've also experienced, too, because in my case, when we're talking Hollywood stuff, we had a lot of white folks over here and a lot of african american folks over here, and it was the way it was. The dynamic was what it was. It wasn't intentional. [01:14:32] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:14:32] Speaker B: But a lot of the discussions come into play, like, maybe we can make this FBI person black, and we can make this so that it's a little bit. And look, I know Hollywood's gonna bend the truth to make a good story, but at some point, too, you make it so unrealistic. It's interesting to hear taking a nonfiction story and trying to fit it into a non historical environment instead of. [01:15:00] Speaker A: They do the same thing with the Bible stories. They changed those. [01:15:04] Speaker B: I mean, what, Jesus looks like this, right? [01:15:07] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:15:08] Speaker B: I mean, that's what I thought. [01:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:15:09] Speaker B: Okay. That's what I thought. [01:15:10] Speaker A: Well, I tell you, with the HRT, we had American Indians, Hispanics, and black people on the thing, so we were. We were good. I kept, you know, when we went through selection, I said, let there be some puerto rican guys that can pass this course. Let there be. [01:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:23] Speaker B: When you want them to or you. [01:15:25] Speaker A: Want them to, and you need them, because everything we do is not tactical. You want to look like America, and we came out like that. I mean, I didn't pick them because of that. [01:15:34] Speaker B: Well, and I think culturally, it's important, too, to just have a breadth of input. [01:15:39] Speaker A: Right. There's no doubt about that. [01:15:41] Speaker B: So how do you. How do you do that with something that refined? First of all, interestingly, if you took the populace and then all of a sudden, you have an HRT team of, you know, 20 people, and all of a sudden, ten of them are black, and you got six women or whatever, you're already going the other way. [01:15:58] Speaker A: Well, women did go through selection. [01:16:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:01] Speaker A: Yeah. One of them got through the course named Mary Ann Sullivan and couldn't mean she got through it. She didn't pass it, but she never. She went, did everything everybody else did. [01:16:14] Speaker B: That was my other question. There was not a modified standard. [01:16:16] Speaker A: Hell, no. No. I was asked that, are you going to modify the standard? Said, yeah. When you modify the threat. [01:16:22] Speaker B: Right. [01:16:23] Speaker A: She did wonderful. I mean, I've hired her. She came on the staff as administrator. [01:16:29] Speaker B: That's awesome. [01:16:29] Speaker A: And she worked undercover for me. When we went out after these groups, I'd send her out to do recons and things and handle logistics. And she was a very attractive woman, blonde, effective. Very effective against that group. Interesting story. Her husband went through selection Gen two, and he didn't do well at all. He did not do well. Matter of fact, he crapped out on us on the double running of the obstacle course. He just crapped out. So we had to take him to hospital. I had to pack his big butt up and take him to hospital. And I'm going to. I go up to see him because the commander always has check on his troops. So I walk in, I'm walking down the hall, I hear Marianne screaming at him, and down the hall, I told you you weren't ready. I've been through this. I mean, she was wearing him out. And I came and walked in the door. He said, commander, would you get my wife out of here? He said, she's your wife. She's not my wife. And she said, I'm leaving. So he went through selection again, then passed. He did pass it. Second. [01:17:33] Speaker B: Fantastic. [01:17:34] Speaker A: He listened to his wife. Cause she knew how hard it was. [01:17:37] Speaker B: I find that fascinating, too, a concept. And we've done the same thing, you know, with. I took the idea from what the police department did, which is, you know, you have your standard to get on and it's a modified standard, and then they never test again. [01:17:50] Speaker A: No, I know. [01:17:51] Speaker B: So we do. We do an across the board standard. No age differential, no sex differential, because, again, the job is. The job is the job. If the. If the job doesn't require that you be able to drag 160 pound body somewhere, fine, we can modify it because you're going to be the one that gets to pull 70 pounds or whatever, that's fine, but that's not what life is. [01:18:12] Speaker A: But we don't do that. [01:18:12] Speaker B: But you also, and I'm hyper conscious as anyone else about trying to be inclusive and respectful of other people, but these are. Have you ever run across any political animosity or. Not necessarily strictly political, but obviously it is political issue within, you know, within the FBI or even after the fact, any pushback for any of that? [01:18:36] Speaker A: No, because your Hollywood interview, other than the Hollywood. Yeah, no, by after we started operating, they knew what our mission was. And the director of the FBI used to come see me all the time. He loved to come down and visit us. The deputy director came down. The deputy assistant director came down, and they watched what we do. And, you know, if you're going to have to swim and then take a caving ladder and hook it on to a boat and climb out of the ocean on a caving ladder, you can have a lot of upper body strength. So they knew what we did. You know what our mission was? A couple of them. John Otto was second down the third down the chain, second down the chain of command. He came down to see me one time and. And he sat in my office and he came down probably once a month because he liked to wash us. And he hears a dog barking. [01:19:33] Speaker B: He said, what was that? I said, what was what? [01:19:36] Speaker A: I hear a dog barking. I said, I don't hear dog barking. [01:19:40] Speaker B: Because you had too many birthdays. [01:19:42] Speaker A: Well, no, I had dogs. I started the dog problem, didn't get approval for it because I wanted dogs. So he said, you started this dog program? I said, I don't understand. He said, I haven't approved it yet. I said, yeah, but you will. And then we go out into the cage area where we keep all our gear, and there's like nine refrigerators lined up against the wall. And he said, did I pay for those? He says, yes, sir, you did. He said, why do you need them? I said, we keep batteries in there because you store your batteries cold. And he said, really? [01:20:20] Speaker B: I said, yes. [01:20:20] Speaker A: He goes and opens one. It's full of Budweiser. And he said, when did Budweiser start making batteries? I said, today. He said, well, bring me a Budweiser. Let's go in your office and talk about it. I mean, they liked us because they knew that we're going to bail them out of bad situations. They hoped we would. I hoped, certainly. I hope we would. But, yeah, we had. We had. We had really good sport. [01:20:47] Speaker B: Did they ever modify or not modify. Did they ever come up with training programs for people who had specific limitations? Like when you brought up, like, you know, you had a lot, you. You had know, African Americans who would have ordinarily passed everything else except they had no experience. Was there a training program or we. [01:21:07] Speaker A: Should have done that? I mean, when you're putting together a team like that and you're under time constraints. I got that thing certified in ten months. [01:21:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:21:16] Speaker A: From selection to certification. [01:21:18] Speaker B: Well, I didn't mean it in a critical way, first of all. I know, you know, I just wonder long term, how advantageous that might be to take more people through the experience like you did with your rappel guy. [01:21:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:30] Speaker B: You know, to where they actually had an opportunity to experience some of these things so that when they did come. [01:21:34] Speaker A: To test, that was a shortcoming we had. And I think it was because of overload. We just. We had to get ready. Go. Ready to go to go to war, essentially. [01:21:42] Speaker B: Right. [01:21:42] Speaker A: And we should have done that. I mean, probably what we should have done is taken some of those people that just couldn't. Could do everything but swimming. We should have done that. I will give you that for sure. We would have gotten some really good people crap. I almost didn't pass the swimming. I mean, I struggled and I worked really hard on that, but, yeah, we should have done it. [01:22:06] Speaker B: We did. [01:22:07] Speaker A: Too busy. [01:22:08] Speaker B: I was just curious. And I didn't mean even then, I just meant after the fact, because it seems like you could do more with the pool people. [01:22:17] Speaker A: They're given the requirements and get ready or not. [01:22:20] Speaker B: And people know what it is now, so they have an opportunity also to prepare, knowing that if that's my goal, I'm going to get in the FBI. It's almost like the secret Service folks that say, I want to work the PPD, they know what's required going into it, so it gives them an opportunity to go find the training or get. [01:22:36] Speaker A: No, I think that's right. Also, it's kind of like it's your responsibility. Yeah, I mean, this is hard. I mean, if you look at what less than 1% of people in the FBI make HRT pretty tough, of course. So get ready for it. [01:22:59] Speaker B: Yep, exactly. Yeah. Once you know in advance, I mean, it was just. I guess it had to be a lot different then because it was like you said, seat of your pants. [01:23:08] Speaker A: I had no idea what I was doing. As a matter of fact, most of the time it's called, you know what a wag is called? A wild ass guess. And that's where I ran my team just kind of figured out, plus, you know what? When you have people that talented, they kind of make it work. I give example, I'm walking through the command post at the Oklahoma bombing and an agent who I didn't know walked up to me and said, boss, why are you so calm? Everybody's crazy here. You're so calm. I said, I'd love to do anything. I'm not going to solve this case. I'm going to get you assets, let you solve it. So it's on you. It's not on me. He said, I've never heard that before. So it's true. [01:23:48] Speaker B: It is on you, but you're going to let them do it. And so I think that's missing in a lot of leadership these days anyway, because it's difficult to, for people to maybe same scenario as the physically fit dominant type people, especially when you get into law enforcement type things where you're testing and all those, you know, selection processes, either, you know, a big brother type of thing or you're testing up the chain and then you lose track of the fact that it's really the people that need to do the work and they're only going to follow you if you're empowering them to allow them to make reasonable mistakes and things like that. I think it's missing a lot of the time. [01:24:26] Speaker A: I think it is, too. I think there are very few leaders in the world that are worth anything. I think most of them are terrible. I'll give you an antidote here. Do you know how many operations I planned the whole time I commanded that team? [01:24:38] Speaker B: I want to say zero. All right. Look at that. [01:24:41] Speaker A: I didn't plan one. What you do, you, you define the mission and you allocate resources and you said you plan it. I'm not going to do it. And here's the reason for it. If I plan it, my ego is so big. I know it's a perfect plan. [01:24:56] Speaker B: Think about it. [01:24:58] Speaker A: If they plan it, I can critique it. And so it had the assault leader make the plan and come meet with me. We sit down and say, what about this? Oh, I forgot about that. And so it's a much better product if the commander doesn't plan but let his people plan. [01:25:12] Speaker B: Right. [01:25:12] Speaker A: But that being said, the commander has to know how to do their job, of course, because you don't know if you're getting a good plan or not. Right. [01:25:21] Speaker B: And you have to know how to do it. I mean, I know you're underselling it, but you're right. If you took a plan, send it to your subordinates, they're less likely to pick it apart. [01:25:29] Speaker A: Oh, of course they are. [01:25:30] Speaker B: So. But you do it the other way around and you're almost a communal effort. [01:25:34] Speaker A: It becomes like participants. Tory management. Remember that old management style they taught in the schools years ago? [01:25:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:25:39] Speaker A: It's kind of like that. And I think that's very healthy. And, I mean, the guy that planned the CSA raid. Whoo. How hard was that? That was tough. We had to swim in boat in March in. Some people came in by helicopter. So it's a lot of balls in here to keep going. He did a phenomenal job. [01:25:58] Speaker B: A lot of balls is right. [01:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You may lose them. [01:26:02] Speaker B: So you've done a whole lot since. I mean, you've. You've been retired for, dude, 27 years. [01:26:08] Speaker A: 1997. I retired. [01:26:10] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So almost 30 years. [01:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm an old guy. Yeah. [01:26:15] Speaker B: So what are you doing now? I mean, you're a young chap. What are you up to? [01:26:19] Speaker A: A lot. I'm doing expert witness testimony. Cinemark theaters were one of my clients. I did surveys of their theaters and. [01:26:30] Speaker B: Developed a security program following the active shooter events. [01:26:33] Speaker A: A lot of it was active shooter. Someone just plain security, like money and stuff. And then the Royal Colorado movie theater was attacked. Remember the Batman shooting? [01:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:44] Speaker A: So their lawyers came to me and said, we want you to be the expert witness. So I'm not doing that. I don't want to do that. And the law, I said, why? So I don't like lawyers work with you. And he said, we need you to do it. So I did it, and I charged him peanuts. The guy that was on the other side of me who I beat the crap out of, he charged like, three times what I charged. So I learned my lesson and sent then I've done 31 major cases like that. I did the Mandalay Bay. I did the cinemark. I'm sorry. The security company over in Dallas. We did. And we did a lawsuit over there, and we got a $7 billion judgment. So my fees went up again quite a bit. [01:27:35] Speaker B: Starting to take points. Instead of a fee. [01:27:37] Speaker A: You can't. Unfortunately, you can't take a piece of it. [01:27:40] Speaker B: Why not? [01:27:41] Speaker A: Law didn't allow you to do it. You can take. [01:27:44] Speaker B: The law won't allow you. Your fee is your fee. I take a percentage. [01:27:47] Speaker A: You can't. They won't let you because they think you'll buy. It'll bias. Bias your opinion. [01:27:52] Speaker B: Interesting. So, I mean, I can see where ethically, that's the case, but I didn't know there was. [01:27:57] Speaker A: Yeah, you can't do it. No, I'd like to. I would have made a. I would have made. [01:28:01] Speaker B: Well, you also risk making nothing. [01:28:04] Speaker A: No, you get fees, you know. [01:28:05] Speaker B: I know, but I'm saying. [01:28:07] Speaker A: Oh, it's true. [01:28:07] Speaker B: You know. Cause I've done some of the expert window stuff. You have your fee. Your fee. And I. And I think in principle, you have the right idea. You charge what you charge. But it's a big case, small case. Yeah, but if you took points based on. I've got how it comes, then you only have a good faith effort to make it work, or you make nothing. [01:28:24] Speaker A: Also, I agree with you that courts unfortunately doesn't agree with either one of us. [01:28:28] Speaker B: That's. [01:28:29] Speaker A: No, I mean, I'm a predator now. I won't even look at a document. Let's give me a lot of money. Yeah, that sounds like I'm bragging. It just happened to be true. [01:28:36] Speaker B: Oh, that's. That's just entrepreneurial progress, because otherwise you'd. [01:28:40] Speaker A: Be ten times more busy and said, we want you to look at a case. They said, send me $10,000 and I'll look at it. That sounds kind of arrogant, but that's the way it is. [01:28:51] Speaker B: Well, when people get too busy to do any of their work justice, that's when you raise your rates. [01:28:56] Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you this, too. No one has ever raised their eyebrows when I give them a fee. First of all, I'm not lost. I'm not very good at this. Everybody else is really bad. It's like, it's like among the blind, the one that is king. I mean, I've had one guy was against, he was a mystery shopper. That was his expertise to testify on the security program for a company. So there's some terrible guys out there, and they. And a lot of them will change their opinion to match the theory of the prosecution, our defense. And I don't do that. I could send me a case, and if I like it, I'll take it. And I've turned down a lot of cases. I did one in Maryland where there was a murder in a newspaper office, and I said, I don't want to take it. And so they flew out and met with me, and they brought all the data. So I'll do this one. Yeah, this is a good case. So it makes it easier for me because I totally believe in what I'm saying. [01:30:01] Speaker B: Right. You can discern. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But it's still have you had a lot of conflicts. I know I've been in some of those cases where, you know, if you're working for someone who is really fighting to get their point across, you know how attorneys work. [01:30:15] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:30:16] Speaker B: You're a third party. You are a completely unbiased observer. So you, it's up to them to slant whatever you say, but what you say has to be factual and something that you believe, not even something you believe, it's literally factual, right? [01:30:31] Speaker A: Well, yeah, and I do believe in it. I'll tell you an interesting story. I did a case over in Dallas. There's a big, big case, and the opposing counselor interviewed me probably, or deposed me for like 9 hours. He knew everything I was going to say. And so I'm the last witness in the trial, and the guy comes up, I give my testimony, and the other side comes up and said, mister Colson, you are the security director for the PJ Tur. I said, yes, sir. I was. He said, did you take care of Tiger Woods? I said, yes, I did. He said, you couldn't keep Tiger woods out of trouble. How do you expect us to keep our employee out of trouble? I said, counsel, Tiger woods didn't stab my client to death. Your client stabbed my client to death. He went, oh, no, I wish I didn't ask that question. [01:31:16] Speaker B: You forgot you were a smart ass. I mean, a smart law enforcement guy. [01:31:19] Speaker A: Not smart either, but yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people get intimidated by confrontation. I love confrontation. I mean, on the PJ tour, you confront people every day, all day long. In my business, in the FBI, everything was a conference. Sometimes they shot at you. [01:31:38] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's a different, that's different confrontation, because I do, I do a lot better in physical confrontation or, you know, telling someone, this is how it is, blah, blah, blah. But I have a lot more difficulty than you do when it comes. I've noticed whether it's expert witness testimony or going to a speaking engagement, which we've done together, we've done speaking engagements, and I'm sitting there like, okay, I got to use rest or McGann. I've been eating in 7 hours. And you're like, I'm saying, what are you going to say? And you're like, I don't know. I was going to go up there and start talking. I'm like, man, there's something beautiful about this, but I don't know if I'm more stressed or less stressed. That means I got to do it all or what? [01:32:18] Speaker A: Debbie will go with me with speeches and things. And Tom, she said, what are you going to talk about? I don't know. [01:32:23] Speaker B: Amazing. [01:32:24] Speaker A: Or she'll do it. Tv. Like, Eric Shawn from Fox called me one day and said, can you do my show Sunday? I said, yeah, what do you want to talk about? He said, I don't know. [01:32:33] Speaker B: Doesn't matter. [01:32:34] Speaker A: Said, no. So Debbie and I go to the tv studio. She's what are you going to talk about? I don't know. What are they asking me? [01:32:41] Speaker B: I mean, I don't. [01:32:43] Speaker A: It doesn't bother me at all. [01:32:45] Speaker B: That's a superpower, though. That's a super. [01:32:47] Speaker A: No, it's not. No, what it is, tegan, I'm old. I've seen a lot of the world more than most people have, and I don't think they're going to surprise me. I don't think they are. So, you know, game on. [01:33:01] Speaker B: I love it. I think it's great. It's. It's. It is really an appreciable skill. And I. Like I said, I can tell you as a living example, I can. I can go and do an enforcement action and feel comfortable. And then when I get on a witness stand or even sometimes in a depot, depending on who's doing it, even the stress, knowing that I'm about to have to answer a question that is counterintuitive as to what my client is trying to accomplish. [01:33:26] Speaker A: It's okay to always tell the truth. [01:33:28] Speaker B: I know you do. I know. But it doesn't mean I don't get stressed and anxious because I'm like, man, they're asking the question you didn't want me to answer. But I'm about to answer. [01:33:36] Speaker A: I'll tell you another one. I did. This is a newspaper case. The lawyers try to ask you a question to, you can't give them an answer, make you look stupid. So they. The lawyer pulled out a loose and was asking me about different people. And he asked me about some guy, John Smith. I said, I don't know who that is. And he said, you don't know who that is? I said, counsel, I've recovered 300 hostages. I don't know the name of a single one of them. Doesn't matter. And he went, oh, shit. I wish that was that question. So you maybe. I think one of the things that if you're not very smart, you don't get scared of much. You're not afraid. And I think that's me. I'm not that smart. [01:34:16] Speaker B: You always claim naivety. It's not that. [01:34:19] Speaker A: No, no, I that's really the way I feel about it. Um, I've had a lot of experiences. God gave me many adventures, and he basically. Well, he put me with people better than me, so I didn't screw them up and put me, the woman who tolerated so well. [01:34:33] Speaker B: And you were smart enough to allow them to do what they do best. I think those are the most successful people. You have to be smart enough to know how to give the proper feedback. [01:34:42] Speaker A: And know when to get out of the way. Yeah, I do have that as a. As an attribute. [01:34:48] Speaker B: So what else are you doing? That's the last I know. [01:34:51] Speaker A: We're getting ready to build a factory that makes 40 millimeter grenades. We're starting that right now. [01:34:56] Speaker B: So you partner with a lot of different things right now, because, again, you get to pick and choose different projects. [01:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. I carried out m 79 grenade launcher in the FBI, so I have a little bit of experience on them. [01:35:07] Speaker B: Good Lord. [01:35:08] Speaker A: So, yeah, I'm excited. I met with an investor just before he came over, so he wants to do it. Then he was talking to me about another project. I said, let me do that. You don't want to do that. You're going the wrong direction. We'll see. [01:35:22] Speaker B: Give him the right advice. [01:35:24] Speaker A: I will. [01:35:25] Speaker B: Because it's not too long. You're going to hit 120, and you're going to start running out of projects if you. You keep giving them away. So you can't do that. [01:35:33] Speaker A: No, I'm not giving them away. They're paying me. [01:35:34] Speaker B: I know. I know you're. I admire that. I mean, you. You don't slow down. [01:35:40] Speaker A: Well, I think when you slow, I think God puts you here to work, and when you stop working, I think he takes you away. My dad built dairies till he was, like, in his late eighties. As soon as he quit building dairies, he died. I'm enjoying life. I have a great wife. I have a great life. I'm healthy. I got eight grandchildren that keep me busy. And I'm busy enough and making enough money, I can do what I want to do. [01:36:05] Speaker B: Do you think technology is going to get in your way before you're done working on stuff like this? [01:36:11] Speaker A: I don't think so. I think it'll just be a tool. I have to learn how to use it. I don't think AI is going to take my place assessing a security operation. [01:36:24] Speaker B: No. [01:36:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think so. It may. Maybe I'm naive about that, but I don't think so. [01:36:30] Speaker B: I think, just help me yeah, I feel old sometimes, too, and like, hey, how do you, how do you turn your watch on? Silence. I don't know. I don't know. [01:36:38] Speaker A: But I don't need to know that. [01:36:41] Speaker B: Sometimes you do. [01:36:42] Speaker A: No, I don't. I'll ask my daughter. I'll ask Debbie or I'll ask him. [01:36:47] Speaker B: Do you think it's going to make the newer generation of incoming law enforcement or professionals in general less intelligent or. [01:36:59] Speaker A: I think it'll make them less effective. The FBI went through this program of hiring a lot of commuter people. Computer people totally screwed up the agency because I admire commuter people, computer people, but they can't talk to anybody. How do you, how do you find people? You ask somebody where they are. I've rested a lot of fugitives, and probably not as many as you, but a lot. And people ask me all the time, how do you find fugitives? Well, you asked enough people. Somebody will tell you where he is or talk to his mother in law. That's how you catch fugitives. And I think that we rely too much on text messages. I mean, a lot of these agents don't have to talk to anybody. [01:37:41] Speaker B: That's true. [01:37:43] Speaker A: And some of the cops are the same way. [01:37:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I know there was something to be said about, you know, the gumshoe style investigation stuff, however, man, just, I mean, look at all the murders that were just being solved instantaneously. [01:37:56] Speaker A: Once it helps, but bottom line, somebody's got to talk to somebody. [01:38:01] Speaker B: Yeah. You need kind of both aspects. [01:38:03] Speaker A: Of course. You. That's why I said, I think we have, we have more tools than we've ever had before. I think the difference is I think we're losing our ability to communicate. And I think sometimes we lie too much on tools and not enough on interpersonal relationships. [01:38:22] Speaker B: I would totally agree with that. [01:38:24] Speaker A: I would know. You would. [01:38:26] Speaker B: I don't know how you fix that. But, I mean, it's, and sometimes it is what it is, and we can be the old man saying, well, you're just an old man. And, yeah, I can't deny that either. I'm an old man. And I know this would be something that an old man would have told me when I was 24, and I'd have said, you're an old man. But I think that's true. I think there's a transitional period right now. [01:38:49] Speaker A: I think law enforcement, at least with the bigger agencies, is they understand trends. And I think that hopefully, I think they will. I think they'll learn how to mill the two where you have to be a good communicator that's be able to talk, but you got to learn how to turn your cell phone off. [01:39:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:09] Speaker A: So. [01:39:10] Speaker B: I certainly hope so. I certainly hope so. And maybe, you know, I don't know how old your son is, but getting out in just in the nick of time is during a time of kind of desperation for law enforcement. [01:39:19] Speaker A: Oh, it's terrible. [01:39:20] Speaker B: Is kind of the key there. [01:39:21] Speaker A: I was really worried about him. He's a k nine officer. And I was glad because. Excuse me. The officers coming onto the force out in the west coast are terrible. Yeah, he went on a deal once. He's on patrol, and he gets a robbery in progress, pulls in a shopping center, two cops there, and he says. [01:39:42] Speaker B: What do we got? [01:39:43] Speaker A: He said, oh, we've got a robbery of that seven alone right there. He said, do we have a description? Let's go find the guy. They said, well, he's standing right there. The guy was still in the shop. [01:39:53] Speaker B: They're looking at him from their cars. [01:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:56] Speaker B: Oh, dear Lord. [01:39:57] Speaker A: And. And Doc said, well, let's go get him. He said, no, we're waiting for the SWAT team. Doc said, no, we're not. He went over and he. He grabbed his rifle out of the car, and he confronted the guy. And the guy ran into a recycling center, had hostages. So my son went after him, and the guy ran out the back door, and he gets in a chase. The other cops don't help him at all. They stand there and leave him by himself. Chases the guy. The guy, uh, he starts to catch him. Um, and the guy turns around. He's got a rambo. Nice. Like I've seen. It's like that big. Came at him like that and with a rifle and put him down, but nobody helped him. [01:40:33] Speaker B: That's indignant. [01:40:34] Speaker A: That's terrible. [01:40:35] Speaker B: That's ridiculous. [01:40:36] Speaker A: I mean, I don't get it. [01:40:38] Speaker B: I mean, that's not as wrong as some of the wrong things we've seen. That's not even wrong. I mean, that's just. They shouldn't be the ones running the wrong, too. But if it's an interpretation of what your supervisors required or whatever, and you see an officer that's put himself in a situation where you have to help, you have to help. I mean, there's. That should be common sense, you. [01:40:56] Speaker A: But I think there's a lot of people out there that's not like them. [01:40:59] Speaker B: I know there are. And that's what I mean, it's. It's. It's frustrating to watch that whole industry, so to speak, kind of take its. Its licks because some of it is justified and, you know, it has to be righted. And I know. [01:41:15] Speaker A: Well, I think if you want my view of it. Yeah, I think a lot of it comes from the defund the police movement. I think you remember a year or so ago, a officer, during a riot, used a beanbag that was out of date. He got indicted. He, and like five other guys, I think five or six, his officer got indicted. Now, you know. Huh. [01:41:41] Speaker B: For assault. [01:41:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Negligent. Negligent, negligent, something. And ultimately, they dismissed it. But can you imagine that? So I think about it, tegan, this is what bothers me about, is that if you want to never have a problem, never do anything, you don't get in trouble for not doing anything in law enforcement. You don't get in trouble for not doing your job. [01:42:08] Speaker B: I even saw that back in my day. [01:42:10] Speaker A: I'm sure you did. [01:42:11] Speaker B: Which, you know, you have the guys park under the tree and you have the go getters that got in trouble. [01:42:15] Speaker A: A lot who were absolutely. And who were doing their job. [01:42:19] Speaker B: And there were. I will concede this, too. There were also go getters who did stuff that they had no damn business doing that ended up having to shoot somebody because they put themselves in a disadvantageous position. But there were people that worked hard and made honest mistakes that were. That were not necessarily, you know, putting somebody in a grave. That. Yes, you get in trouble, you, you know, you run over a curb in a car, trying to be aggressive or whatever, to catch a guy or whatever. Whatever it is, you know, I'm talking about reasonable mistakes that were made. And again, if you're sitting under a tree reading the paper, then you don't get in trouble. Your car's never going to get wrecked. No whatever. So you let somebody else go, make. [01:42:55] Speaker A: A lot, make money, never lose it, never get fired, never get indicted. Oh, I know. I went through that, too. May tell you the best agents I knew were agents who would push the legal envelope and not cross the line. They were the best people I ever worked with. [01:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's creative thinking. I mean, that's. That's maybe what, what people are missing. Maybe because you've got. Maybe that's what technology is doing. I mean, the fact that you can look down and grab the answer instead of having to spend an inordinate amount of time to go chase it down, is part of the problem that you have to think creatively in order to. To come up with solutions that will work and still stay within bounds. No that's not an easy task, and it sometimes is an innate ability for some people, yeah. [01:43:42] Speaker A: And generally, the smarter guys do it, and women. [01:43:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, depends on smarts. Again, there's a difference. You take the test, you're whatever cop, federal agent, whatever. And you take a test to do this. Or you have the street smarts, and I know you've seen the differences between those. [01:44:00] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Yes. [01:44:01] Speaker B: And you kind of need both, really. [01:44:03] Speaker A: But I think street force is that. That's that savvy. [01:44:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:07] Speaker A: That some of the guys had for sure, necessary. [01:44:11] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's a whole nother story. That's a whole nother tunnel, too. We're not going to go down that tunnel, but. And I'm proud to have you as a friend. I appreciate you. Burn time. [01:44:21] Speaker A: Likewise. So have had fun today. I hope you have. [01:44:24] Speaker B: You have anything else to add? That's. Anything else? That's super fun. You want to announce? [01:44:29] Speaker A: No. Maybe down the road they got a couple of things percolating. [01:44:36] Speaker B: Okay, cool. [01:44:36] Speaker A: Are you familiar with that thing in Pakistan where they deposed the prime minister? [01:44:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:43] Speaker A: They had a coup and they deposed him. The pakistani people came to me and helped get me to help. [01:44:49] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:44:49] Speaker A: I said, okay, I hope you ain't going to Pakistan. [01:44:52] Speaker B: Can we do this on Zoom? [01:44:55] Speaker A: I did, actually. I wrote all their legal arguments for it, and it worked. [01:44:59] Speaker B: I love it. Well, it's an exciting life, man. Thanks for letting us take a glimpse into. [01:45:05] Speaker A: Thank you. I love your new place. This is awesome. [01:45:07] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm trying to. Trying to do some fun projects and make a difference at the same time, but I mean, the stories like this, I think are interesting for people to. [01:45:16] Speaker A: Take and hope there's not talk too much. [01:45:19] Speaker B: I hope you talk too much. That's the point of this. I don't want to be doing the talking. People listen to me. [01:45:24] Speaker A: I think I have a saying. You learn more about listening than you do by talking. So I should have listened maybe a little bit more today. [01:45:31] Speaker B: Hey, start a podcast. [01:45:33] Speaker A: No. [01:45:33] Speaker B: It's the greatest way to learn. [01:45:35] Speaker A: I don't have any time for that. [01:45:38] Speaker B: All right, well, I appreciate you, brother. [01:45:40] Speaker A: Thank you. We'll see you again next time. [01:45:43] Speaker B: What's it take? What you gonna do? What you gonna do? Success around the same second grade rules a confident thing to make you do make you do what they want when they won't be the fool a diplomatic base is the one to see it through. Don't let those figures take you off. You game or just let em lose? Just sit here in the front seat baby, ain't that sweet? Take a little honey from the money bee but don't pay the fool see the truth of soul motion never found a 60 frames like fire finding more shine the truth lies between blurry line if you gonna call on me now.